RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

What are you talking about, what they are capable of? All Clergy should be able to do the same cermonies, counselings and so forth, so maybe I'm not getting what you mean. I would figure the higher people would do more things, if necessary, but like I said I don't see what else there could be. There would be communion and that sort of stuff, any of them should be able to give sermons. Please let me know, I really want to understand your point, I'm just not seeing it yet.

DK

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Rev. Justice wrote:

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Hmmm, we'll have to ask him then. And yes I am talking about that as well as the other things that the other clergy can do.

Ok so, having now consulted our Senior Pastor I was again mistaken, though not as much as I had thought. He is indeed the Arch-Bishop. But as he explained to me that has nothing to do with holy orders of which the highest is Bishop. It has to do with jurisdiction.

I am glad to see so much interaction and passion over a topic. That is how doctrines and practices become set (as long as the people agree). Brother Dhagon, there are two separate areas of the Temple (if I am wrong, someone please correct me). There is the Jedi side that teaches the principles and the steps that lead to a choice of paths wherein the individual Jedi will become a Master. Then, there is the temple side of the Temple. Here, there are a handful of Jedi that have chosen to devote their lives to a calling aside from that of solely being a Jedi Knight. I relate it back to the idea that there were Jedi healers and Jedi warriors. The healers wore specific robes and performed specific duties whereas the warriors and Knights were charged with protection of the Order. Once I have achieved Mastery or Knighthood, I am not in a position to exert any power over any Knight or Master that is not of the Clergy side of the Temple. There are simply two separate paths that some members have chosen to follow. Should everyone be clergy? No, that is why it is a choice. You can be a mediocre or the greatest Jedi that ever came out of this Temple or any other and not be ordained within the Church. Let's just accept that there are two paths, and allow those that do not agree with the concept or simply the titles to follow their paths with the knowledge that we are not and will not be in any manner lording our positions over the Jedi that choose to not be clergy. I pray this matter is resolved soon and heartily accept any criticism to this letter. May the Force be with us all.

This may be at odds with what what we here at the Temple are trying to do, but I think the current titles, as I said before, should stay. As Bishop Whiteman as said, Using tites that are too similar to our Jedi titles would be confusing, not only to the people outside the order, but also to those who are already members. Also, the problem with not having a ranking system si that, as a fledgling organization, so to speak, there ahs to be someone that can make decisions for the organization. Once this organization gets on his feet, and has solidified doctrine and ceremonial proceedings, then if there is a need or eneral consensus to change the rankings or anything for that matter, then it would probably be better then. But, there's nothing really wrong with the ranking system. The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities. I for one am completely comfortable with our current ranking system Just because the Christian church uses these titles, doesn't mean we shouldn't. While these aren't \"universal\" titles, they are, as Master Whiteman said, fairly easily recogizable. And while it may not be the desire of some to be recognizable, I do believe it is the desire of many senior members of the Order. This organization needs to grow. And to do that people do need to takes this seriously. To take this seriously, people need to understand that we are a real organization with real Clergy. I am not, as you are not DK, trying to step on anyone's toes. But I Like the direction this organization is going. And though I am new here, I put my support in with Master Whiteman and Br. John.

This [These] is [are] the issue(s) that caused the schism of the Temple Of The Jedi Force and the Temple Of The Jedi Order.

You know how once in a while you see a SO ORDERED. It's a reference to a major decision of The Order. This is handy years later when doing a search.

Consider that I, Br. John, am the Grand-Cardinal-Arch-Bishop (Pope) of The Order and I'm all powerful.

Since we can't escape The Game Of Black And White ...

(if you have not read this yet - what's wrong with you?)

... I have almost absolute powers at the expense of having almost no choice.

I am Br. John because all of you say I am. I cannot make you a Master. I wish I could. The only way a person learns is by themselves and their's not a better way to learn by yourself than with the help of someone else.

We are on a luminous journey together; our diversity is our spice; our members are our heart; our combined power is beyond good and evil ... light and dark.

We are Jedi.

John, Servant of the servant's of The Order.

By Sirius,

The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities.

Not completely separate, brother. We clergy have normal Jedi ranks too, we just have extra responsibilty by bearing the title of clergy within the Order. I have an apprentice that I am responisble to teach, train, and guide just as other Knights and Masters do. The clergy side of the Temple is not the only side I deal with. If I found that being clergy hindered my efforts to train and teach my apprentice properly, I would step down in a heartbeat. Risking my apprentice is not worth the cost. I am devoted to my apprentice first and foremost. My duty as clergy comes second. So, I don't think it's really two separate entites, just two separate ranking systems for those few who have chosen to take on the extra responsiblity. It in no way, shape, or form makes any of us any better than the rest of our sisters or brothers within the Order. It just means we are able to be of service to them in ways others can not. Please do not take my words the wrong way, this is not any type of rebuke or said in ill towards you. You made very valid and strong points in what you said.

Yeah, I don't that was the intention of what I said...but I don't take offense at all. I just basically meant that there really is no way to use such similar titles and ranks for Jedi and Clergy, as all would do is confuse. Not they they are separate...but serve different roles.

Exactly my point br. justice, although not all Jedi are clergy, all clergy are still Jedi, therefore should correlate to a Jedi structure. As far as ordinations, simply a Master Jedi Cleric would be the ones who could do it, same as if you called them a Bishop instead. I'm still curious what other things that senior clergy would do aside from ordinations, which admittedly I hadn't thought of before, and should be done only by senior clergy.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Here was what I suggested:

Non Clergy -- - Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

These represent those who do not choose to be Clergy, and those who do, They separate those with more responsibility, seniority, knowledge, experience or whatever for both for Clergy and Non Clergy. It makes distinct separation for either, and makes it quite easy to discern who to go to if you need someone for a Clergy matter, regardless of the level you need to talk to. And under no circumstance, should Jedi be left out. First and foremost, everyone of us should be a Jedi, and if your not a Jedi, you should not be any sort of member of Jediism Clergy. By denying what we are, Jedi, we are selling ourselves short. You can be a Jedi and a member of the Clergy, by taking the term Jedi out of it, it would seem you have to choose one or the other. Just some more thoughts.

DK

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

When we start dealing out titles like some of the ones I've seen suggested, people are going to start power-tripping, and how is that in keeping in line with Jediism? We aren't Bishop's or Archbishops or monsignor's, I joined Jediism, the closest thing I could agree to other than just Init, App, Knight or Master, is the Cleric idea, it's generic, and still conveys something of a religious title with it. We aren't supposed to favor another religion, we are autonomous, or so says the Front page in no certain terms.

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Maybe we should put it to a vote, it seems the sensible thing to do. If someone can contact Jidun, I'd prefer we put it on the side than wait for people to sign into this particular forum board and vote. I say we leave it open for atleat two weeks, and somehow (if possible) prevent multiple voting by the same person.

DK

Very wise idea Brother DK, one of our Jedi beliefs is \"In the importance of democracy within religious, political, and other structures.\"
Let the brethren decide.

Lenny
Jedi Knight

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

Br. John wrote:

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

The church has already voted and accepted the Current Jedi ranking structure has it not? It was my understanding this had to do with Clergy not the Jedi ranking.

Whiteknight wrote:

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Are you offering to help with this committee?

Br. John

We are a church and have clergy.

A commissioned minister is a person who is not full time clergy and does not have duties or responsibilities of any continuing nature. We don’t have any of these and if and when we do it would be for a member who just wanted to conduct a wedding for a friend or other one time service and that’s it. If another occasion comes then they get another commission for the specific service.

Licensed ministers are those licensed by the church as full time clergy during good behavior (no time limit) and they have a higher duty of service and responsibilities. They can conduce weddings and all other ceremonies except regular spiritual counseling and or ‘confessions’ protected under state law as privileged communications.

These two functions are where we cross into legal territory. Authorized ministers are exempt from counseling licenses and can be told things in confidence which is a privileged communication and the minister cannot be compelled to repeat them.

A license can be revoked at any time when it’s in the best interest of The Order like if someone lied on their application or got the license just for a joke or for abusing the power etc.

A Whateveryoucallit has the same powers as a licensed minister but they are ordained and its permanent – no take backs. For bad behavior such and one can be forbidden from exercising their powers under penalty of expulsion from The Order.

A Whoeveryoucallit is ordained and in addition to all the powers of a minister can help folks with continuing spiritual counseling and hear a confidence protected by law. By now you see why a license is so easy to get and it’s only after a person is comfortable in the clergy and proven themselves that we give them powers that can harm people.

All of these folks can just be called Rev. as a matter of common etiquette in a formal setting.

The Wheneveryouareit has all the powers of the Whoeveryoucallit and can license and ordain.

Our clergy are the servants not the masters of The Order.

This is an exciting and well mannered discussion and it’s great. I unpublished but did not delete the Sith post as garbage. A post that says nothing but “George is a Dark Lord and smells like an outhouse” or “that Jedi bitch used her powers to make me pee myself” should not even get the dignity of an answer. Nobody’s running around censoring here and if we do remove something we keep a copy. Debate is always welcome and garbage goes in the trash double bagged.

I’m going to quit while I’m ahead and see what commentary comes along.

Br. John

We voted and are the current structure is official but a number of members are asking to reconsider the question. This is not something that can keep changing or soon we'll be so confused we won't know who anyone is or what they're doing but this early in the game there's no harm in considering amendments and no emergency.

Like I said, I blame myself for making this seem like a bigger deal than what it is with all my history of etiquette etc.

And we all failed to consider the issue or Rite's. (Not Rights.) For example a Jedi who is also a Christian and clergy would conduct a baptism while a Jedi who is a Wiccan and clergy would conduct a naming.

The duties of a Jedi Clergy in an emergency could require them to conduct a ceremony for a faith they did not share like a Chaplin.

Jediism stands alone as a way of life but I'm not leaving my traditions and comfort zone at the door. I did not quit being half Sicilian or quit the custom of giving presents on my birthday. I did not quit Zen.

The committee did a good job and I think a lot of folks did not notice until round one was complete.

Let's relax and have some fun seeing if we can reach a consensus.

Br. John<br><br>Post edited by: Br. John, at: 2007/06/01 11:05

I agree with all that you said here Br. John, I wouldn't ask someone to quit their beliefs for Jediism. I also have no problems with the current designations of rank for normal Jedi, as far as I knew, the only discussion was designations of rank of Jedi who are also Clergy. I also have to agree, this is a rather well mannered discussion, and I'm glad to see that every one is in control of thier emotions. I have not see Jidun around, does this form of voting that I have recommended in previous post seem like something that can be done, or would it be too difficult?