RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

In any other capacity I would agree. But look at it from this point of view: I as a soldier know of the limits of my training. I also can sense the knowledge of others around me. Sometimes I have more, sometimes they do. Sometimes those that do not still outrank me. Now take all that to just mean that sometimes there are those that have more training than others, and those that are simply in positions of (and I hate to use \"this\" word) power. We owe them the respect of their appointed offices and or positions. I have had spititual debates with clergy members in the past, but did not falter to refer to them by their titles. I kind of agree with the whole \"on the same level\" thing, but you also has to understand that there are those that are more versed and further trained that others sometimes.

Up until now I`ve heard a lot about experience, levels, ranks, titles, knowledge... . What about spirituality? What about the depth of spirituality that any of these positions incorporates? The more the position takes on responsability the more spiritually firm the person has to be, and the more its members can look to the Rev., Bishop, Archbishop for guidance. In this way those with clerical orders become a gift, and not a burden. This does in no way however exclude the depth of spirituality of its members, or that they may not be consulted. No, it just means that the Bishop... are public points of reference.

Exactly brother. Good point. We do not hoard these titles over the other members for there are Jedi that simply choose not to attain a position within the clergy, and nor does it give us any ranking over anyone.

Hi, this whole ranking thing, is somewhat tiresome, and we appear to have raped and pillaged the Catolic faith for their titles, I could be wrong, but people are running around with \"Rankings\" of Bishop, or Monsignor. Why not create a generic brand for our titles. Initiate, for those who have yet to find a Master, Apprentice for those who have a Master, Knight for those who have completed their training, and then Master for those that have taken and completed the training of an Apprentice? Why do we have to take the titles from other religions when we are supposed to be a separate entity from other religions?
Just a thought.

Br. Shaun wrote:

Hi, this whole ranking thing, is somewhat tiresome, and we appear to have raped and pillaged the Catolic faith for their titles, I could be wrong, but people are running around with \"Rankings\" of Bishop, or Monsignor. Why not create a generic brand for our titles. Initiate, for those who have yet to find a Master, Apprentice for those who have a Master, Knight for those who have completed their training, and then Master for those that have taken and completed the training of an Apprentice? Why do we have to take the titles from other religions when we are supposed to be a separate entity from other religions?
Just a thought.

Those rankings are the ones used to designate our development as Jedi. This discussion is regarding that of CLERGY.

These rankings are not specifically Roman Catholic, but also to be found in the Anglican, Evangelical, Orthodox, Mormon, Baptist, Old Catholic... traditions.

All of which are based on one thing, the Bible. I'm not here to discuss the validity of said book, but it all comes from the same place, the differences there are points of view and interpretations of the words. My point it, it needs to be more Jedi specific or a generic term that doesn't take strictly from one set of beliefs. I wouldn't ask you all to make me Jedi Knight Sage, because I believe in Taoism, and people with the most experience in it are refered to as sage. Which is why I recommended Cleric, and the slight differences in title that I did, it is both a generic term used by nearly all spiritualities, yet Jedi specific, because no other religion uses the term directly in titles or designations. Do I object that they come from Christianity, yes, but not because its Christianity, but because it is pulled from one basic set of beliefs, I would object to Rabbi, or Imam as well and with just as much enthusiasm.

Br. John, I did recommend some titles, I'm not sure what page they are, but I can't figure out how to quote from them with out going out of this message to do it, it should be in this thread somewhere.

DK

John, it is currently on page four, my sugestions for named ranks of clergy. Something I still don't believe to be absolutely necessary, but seemingly wanted by the majority.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

All of which are based on one thing, the Bible. I'm not here to discuss the validity of said book, but it all comes from the same place, the differences there are points of view and interpretations of the words. My point it, it needs to be more Jedi specific or a generic term that doesn't take strictly from one set of beliefs. I wouldn't ask you all to make me Jedi Knight Sage, because I believe in Taoism, and people with the most experience in it are refered to as sage. Which is why I recommended Cleric, and the slight differences in title that I did, it is both a generic term used by nearly all spiritualities, yet Jedi specific, because no other religion uses the term directly in titles or designations. Do I object that they come from Christianity, yes, but not because its Christianity, but because it is pulled from one basic set of beliefs, I would object to Rabbi, or Imam as well and with just as much enthusiasm.

Br. John, I did recommend some titles, I'm not sure what page they are, but I can't figure out how to quote from them with out going out of this message to do it, it should be in this thread somewhere.

DK

You see they are not used here with any connection of that kind whatsoever, and we know that. No where in the Bible does it lay down what these designations are nor is it spoken about at all in this manner. I do not believe the word Bishop is even in the Bible. They were created by man.

Twsoundsoff wrote:

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

All of which are based on one thing, the Bible. I'm not here to discuss the validity of said book, but it all comes from the same place, the differences there are points of view and interpretations of the words. My point it, it needs to be more Jedi specific or a generic term that doesn't take strictly from one set of beliefs. I wouldn't ask you all to make me Jedi Knight Sage, because I believe in Taoism, and people with the most experience in it are refered to as sage. Which is why I recommended Cleric, and the slight differences in title that I did, it is both a generic term used by nearly all spiritualities, yet Jedi specific, because no other religion uses the term directly in titles or designations. Do I object that they come from Christianity, yes, but not because its Christianity, but because it is pulled from one basic set of beliefs, I would object to Rabbi, or Imam as well and with just as much enthusiasm.

Br. John, I did recommend some titles, I'm not sure what page they are, but I can't figure out how to quote from them with out going out of this message to do it, it should be in this thread somewhere.

DK

You see they are not used here with any connection of that kind whatsoever, and we know that. No where in the Bible does it lay down what these designations are nor is it spoken about at all in this manner. I do not believe the word Bishop is even in the Bible. They were created by man.

As such they are words, and this allows us to use them as any other religion does. I must say again, if it isnt broke, why fix it? To make it unique? We are unique already, changing this wont make it any more so.

When I was staying in the hospital recently with relative I noticed something. There were nurse aids, licensed vocational nurses (LVN), registered nurses (RN) and even nurse practitioners who could write prescriptions.

When a shunt seemed to be leaking the nurse (an LVN) had to get another nurse (the RN) to come check it since she was not qualified or allowed to do that procedure.

That’s four types of nurses with four different titles in a routine day but the Hell with it.

They are all health care professionals’; right?

So let’s just forget about those troublesome distinctions and not even have doctor, surgeon, nurse, respiratory therapist, ophthalmologist ….

Let’s just call all of them health care professionals (HCP’s) and save all the bother.

Br. John

I'd say we fix it so as not to be concidered a extention of a church, that not all members believe in, which is why I suggested something more generalized. Is it broke, no not for a Christian or Catholic church, but for a Jedi Temple, I don't feel it fits well, and by name alone, because of pretenses, implies that one has power over another. Pope over archbishop, archbishop over bishop, and so on. Further more in that church, when it comes to anything to do with the church, it implies that the clergy member has the final say over the members, something I don't believe we intend, but could easily be construed as such, simply by name alone.

Regardless, I believe that I've said enough on this matter, as have you Br. Tom, it seems as though most members are waiting on a victor in this discussion to get behind, so I will voice no further opinion, untill I feel that enough of the members have voiced theirs, and not simply reiterated mine or yours. Do please remember, this is by no means an attack on you or your beliefs, I simply just feel it should be more generalized, or not at all.

DK

Br. John wrote:

When I was staying in the hospital recently with relative I noticed something. There were nurse aids, licensed vocational nurses (LVN), registered nurses (RN) and even nurse practitioners who could write prescriptions.

When a shunt seemed to be leaking the nurse (an LVN) had to get another nurse (the RN) to come check it since she was not qualified or allowed to do that procedure.

That’s four types of nurses with four different titles in a routine day but the Hell with it.

They are all health care professionals’; right?

So let’s just forget about those troublesome distinctions and not even have doctor, surgeon, nurse, respiratory therapist, ophthalmologist ….

Let’s just call all of them health care professionals (HCP’s) and save all the bother.

Br. John

Br. John, how is it that you can so easily put into words that which I cannot, LOL. Thank you for this wisdom.

With all due respect Br. John, I agree, lets do away with it all together. Otherwise, the ones I suggested before, still have a heirarchy of experience, that correlates with Jedi type titles, therefore, would still serve the purpose of the distinct experience levels of the clergy.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

With all due respect Br. John, I agree, lets do away with it all together. Otherwise, the ones I suggested before, still have a heirarchy of experience, that correlates with Jedi type titles, therefore, would still serve the purpose of the distinct experience levels of the clergy.

DK

Again, they are not one in the same. Jedi experience does not denote experience as Clergy. To simply do away with them and replace it with one name would be like changing all the distinctions in the hospital to simply health care professional. How would they then know who was qualified to do what? That is what he is saying.

A thought on optional Jediism Clergy names.

Jedi High Cleric=Archbishop
Sr. Jedi Cleric=Bishop
Jedi Cleric=Rev.
or
High Cleric=Archbishop
Sr. Cleric=Bishop
Cleric=Rev.

These keep the titles Jedi specific and still denote the levels within the clergy, but all can be referred to as Rev. during conversation with no disrespect intended whatsoever or concern for addressing the right person the right way. You could easily use them when writting your rank and clergy level without any confusion too, i.e.,

Sr Jedi Knight/Sr Jedi Cleric
or
Sr Jedi Knight/Sr Cleric

The titles still carry the same duties and responsibility, but are not leaning towards any particular other religions titles which seems to be the ongoing conflict. There is no confusion that one carries more responsibility than the other and doesn't get confused with the Jedi ranking system and their levels of authority either. I've been following this thread and have commented on it before, but this is just my offer for how to deal with it. It is just a suggestion to deal with the subject at hand.

Awaiting comments and suggestions.....

Now were are talking about a workable solution. however, there really is no arch-bishop. and we should leave the word Jedi out of it as in your second example. But This would allow for the necessary distinctions. I still stand by not needing to change it, but were it to change, i would not argue with this style of system, save that it would be unclear to those who are not jedi what these really mean. so we lose that sort of universality of the current distinctions used.

So then High Cleric would equal Bishop. But I still dont see a need for a change.

Here was what I suggested:

Non Clergy -- - Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

These represent those who do not choose to be Clergy, and those who do, They separate those with more responsibility, seniority, knowledge, experience or whatever for both for Clergy and Non Clergy. It makes distinct separation for either, and makes it quite easy to discern who to go to if you need someone for a Clergy matter, regardless of the level you need to talk to. And under no circumstance, should Jedi be left out. First and foremost, everyone of us should be a Jedi, and if your not a Jedi, you should not be any sort of member of Jediism Clergy. By denying what we are, Jedi, we are selling ourselves short. You can be a Jedi and a member of the Clergy, by taking the term Jedi out of it, it would seem you have to choose one or the other. Just some more thoughts.

DK

But it does not show who is capable of what as Clergy. remember Dhagon, They are seperate.