RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

When I was staying in the hospital recently with relative I noticed something. There were nurse aids, licensed vocational nurses (LVN), registered nurses (RN) and even nurse practitioners who could write prescriptions.

When a shunt seemed to be leaking the nurse (an LVN) had to get another nurse (the RN) to come check it since she was not qualified or allowed to do that procedure.

That’s four types of nurses with four different titles in a routine day but the Hell with it.

They are all health care professionals’; right?

So let’s just forget about those troublesome distinctions and not even have doctor, surgeon, nurse, respiratory therapist, ophthalmologist ….

Let’s just call all of them health care professionals (HCP’s) and save all the bother.

Br. John

I'd say we fix it so as not to be concidered a extention of a church, that not all members believe in, which is why I suggested something more generalized. Is it broke, no not for a Christian or Catholic church, but for a Jedi Temple, I don't feel it fits well, and by name alone, because of pretenses, implies that one has power over another. Pope over archbishop, archbishop over bishop, and so on. Further more in that church, when it comes to anything to do with the church, it implies that the clergy member has the final say over the members, something I don't believe we intend, but could easily be construed as such, simply by name alone.

Regardless, I believe that I've said enough on this matter, as have you Br. Tom, it seems as though most members are waiting on a victor in this discussion to get behind, so I will voice no further opinion, untill I feel that enough of the members have voiced theirs, and not simply reiterated mine or yours. Do please remember, this is by no means an attack on you or your beliefs, I simply just feel it should be more generalized, or not at all.

DK

Br. John wrote:

When I was staying in the hospital recently with relative I noticed something. There were nurse aids, licensed vocational nurses (LVN), registered nurses (RN) and even nurse practitioners who could write prescriptions.

When a shunt seemed to be leaking the nurse (an LVN) had to get another nurse (the RN) to come check it since she was not qualified or allowed to do that procedure.

That’s four types of nurses with four different titles in a routine day but the Hell with it.

They are all health care professionals’; right?

So let’s just forget about those troublesome distinctions and not even have doctor, surgeon, nurse, respiratory therapist, ophthalmologist ….

Let’s just call all of them health care professionals (HCP’s) and save all the bother.

Br. John

Br. John, how is it that you can so easily put into words that which I cannot, LOL. Thank you for this wisdom.

With all due respect Br. John, I agree, lets do away with it all together. Otherwise, the ones I suggested before, still have a heirarchy of experience, that correlates with Jedi type titles, therefore, would still serve the purpose of the distinct experience levels of the clergy.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

With all due respect Br. John, I agree, lets do away with it all together. Otherwise, the ones I suggested before, still have a heirarchy of experience, that correlates with Jedi type titles, therefore, would still serve the purpose of the distinct experience levels of the clergy.

DK

Again, they are not one in the same. Jedi experience does not denote experience as Clergy. To simply do away with them and replace it with one name would be like changing all the distinctions in the hospital to simply health care professional. How would they then know who was qualified to do what? That is what he is saying.

A thought on optional Jediism Clergy names.

Jedi High Cleric=Archbishop
Sr. Jedi Cleric=Bishop
Jedi Cleric=Rev.
or
High Cleric=Archbishop
Sr. Cleric=Bishop
Cleric=Rev.

These keep the titles Jedi specific and still denote the levels within the clergy, but all can be referred to as Rev. during conversation with no disrespect intended whatsoever or concern for addressing the right person the right way. You could easily use them when writting your rank and clergy level without any confusion too, i.e.,

Sr Jedi Knight/Sr Jedi Cleric
or
Sr Jedi Knight/Sr Cleric

The titles still carry the same duties and responsibility, but are not leaning towards any particular other religions titles which seems to be the ongoing conflict. There is no confusion that one carries more responsibility than the other and doesn't get confused with the Jedi ranking system and their levels of authority either. I've been following this thread and have commented on it before, but this is just my offer for how to deal with it. It is just a suggestion to deal with the subject at hand.

Awaiting comments and suggestions.....

Now were are talking about a workable solution. however, there really is no arch-bishop. and we should leave the word Jedi out of it as in your second example. But This would allow for the necessary distinctions. I still stand by not needing to change it, but were it to change, i would not argue with this style of system, save that it would be unclear to those who are not jedi what these really mean. so we lose that sort of universality of the current distinctions used.

So then High Cleric would equal Bishop. But I still dont see a need for a change.

Here was what I suggested:

Non Clergy -- - Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

These represent those who do not choose to be Clergy, and those who do, They separate those with more responsibility, seniority, knowledge, experience or whatever for both for Clergy and Non Clergy. It makes distinct separation for either, and makes it quite easy to discern who to go to if you need someone for a Clergy matter, regardless of the level you need to talk to. And under no circumstance, should Jedi be left out. First and foremost, everyone of us should be a Jedi, and if your not a Jedi, you should not be any sort of member of Jediism Clergy. By denying what we are, Jedi, we are selling ourselves short. You can be a Jedi and a member of the Clergy, by taking the term Jedi out of it, it would seem you have to choose one or the other. Just some more thoughts.

DK

But it does not show who is capable of what as Clergy. remember Dhagon, They are seperate.

What are you talking about, what they are capable of? All Clergy should be able to do the same cermonies, counselings and so forth, so maybe I'm not getting what you mean. I would figure the higher people would do more things, if necessary, but like I said I don't see what else there could be. There would be communion and that sort of stuff, any of them should be able to give sermons. Please let me know, I really want to understand your point, I'm just not seeing it yet.

DK

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Rev. Justice wrote:

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Hmmm, we'll have to ask him then. And yes I am talking about that as well as the other things that the other clergy can do.

Ok so, having now consulted our Senior Pastor I was again mistaken, though not as much as I had thought. He is indeed the Arch-Bishop. But as he explained to me that has nothing to do with holy orders of which the highest is Bishop. It has to do with jurisdiction.

I am glad to see so much interaction and passion over a topic. That is how doctrines and practices become set (as long as the people agree). Brother Dhagon, there are two separate areas of the Temple (if I am wrong, someone please correct me). There is the Jedi side that teaches the principles and the steps that lead to a choice of paths wherein the individual Jedi will become a Master. Then, there is the temple side of the Temple. Here, there are a handful of Jedi that have chosen to devote their lives to a calling aside from that of solely being a Jedi Knight. I relate it back to the idea that there were Jedi healers and Jedi warriors. The healers wore specific robes and performed specific duties whereas the warriors and Knights were charged with protection of the Order. Once I have achieved Mastery or Knighthood, I am not in a position to exert any power over any Knight or Master that is not of the Clergy side of the Temple. There are simply two separate paths that some members have chosen to follow. Should everyone be clergy? No, that is why it is a choice. You can be a mediocre or the greatest Jedi that ever came out of this Temple or any other and not be ordained within the Church. Let's just accept that there are two paths, and allow those that do not agree with the concept or simply the titles to follow their paths with the knowledge that we are not and will not be in any manner lording our positions over the Jedi that choose to not be clergy. I pray this matter is resolved soon and heartily accept any criticism to this letter. May the Force be with us all.

This may be at odds with what what we here at the Temple are trying to do, but I think the current titles, as I said before, should stay. As Bishop Whiteman as said, Using tites that are too similar to our Jedi titles would be confusing, not only to the people outside the order, but also to those who are already members. Also, the problem with not having a ranking system si that, as a fledgling organization, so to speak, there ahs to be someone that can make decisions for the organization. Once this organization gets on his feet, and has solidified doctrine and ceremonial proceedings, then if there is a need or eneral consensus to change the rankings or anything for that matter, then it would probably be better then. But, there's nothing really wrong with the ranking system. The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities. I for one am completely comfortable with our current ranking system Just because the Christian church uses these titles, doesn't mean we shouldn't. While these aren't \"universal\" titles, they are, as Master Whiteman said, fairly easily recogizable. And while it may not be the desire of some to be recognizable, I do believe it is the desire of many senior members of the Order. This organization needs to grow. And to do that people do need to takes this seriously. To take this seriously, people need to understand that we are a real organization with real Clergy. I am not, as you are not DK, trying to step on anyone's toes. But I Like the direction this organization is going. And though I am new here, I put my support in with Master Whiteman and Br. John.

This [These] is [are] the issue(s) that caused the schism of the Temple Of The Jedi Force and the Temple Of The Jedi Order.

You know how once in a while you see a SO ORDERED. It's a reference to a major decision of The Order. This is handy years later when doing a search.

Consider that I, Br. John, am the Grand-Cardinal-Arch-Bishop (Pope) of The Order and I'm all powerful.

Since we can't escape The Game Of Black And White ...

(if you have not read this yet - what's wrong with you?)

... I have almost absolute powers at the expense of having almost no choice.

I am Br. John because all of you say I am. I cannot make you a Master. I wish I could. The only way a person learns is by themselves and their's not a better way to learn by yourself than with the help of someone else.

We are on a luminous journey together; our diversity is our spice; our members are our heart; our combined power is beyond good and evil ... light and dark.

We are Jedi.

John, Servant of the servant's of The Order.

By Sirius,

The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities.

Not completely separate, brother. We clergy have normal Jedi ranks too, we just have extra responsibilty by bearing the title of clergy within the Order. I have an apprentice that I am responisble to teach, train, and guide just as other Knights and Masters do. The clergy side of the Temple is not the only side I deal with. If I found that being clergy hindered my efforts to train and teach my apprentice properly, I would step down in a heartbeat. Risking my apprentice is not worth the cost. I am devoted to my apprentice first and foremost. My duty as clergy comes second. So, I don't think it's really two separate entites, just two separate ranking systems for those few who have chosen to take on the extra responsiblity. It in no way, shape, or form makes any of us any better than the rest of our sisters or brothers within the Order. It just means we are able to be of service to them in ways others can not. Please do not take my words the wrong way, this is not any type of rebuke or said in ill towards you. You made very valid and strong points in what you said.

Yeah, I don't that was the intention of what I said...but I don't take offense at all. I just basically meant that there really is no way to use such similar titles and ranks for Jedi and Clergy, as all would do is confuse. Not they they are separate...but serve different roles.

Exactly my point br. justice, although not all Jedi are clergy, all clergy are still Jedi, therefore should correlate to a Jedi structure. As far as ordinations, simply a Master Jedi Cleric would be the ones who could do it, same as if you called them a Bishop instead. I'm still curious what other things that senior clergy would do aside from ordinations, which admittedly I hadn't thought of before, and should be done only by senior clergy.

DK