RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

I don't believe there needs to be a separate rank to go with being a clergy person. Members of the Clergy are merely offering themselves to serve the role of religious leader of ceremonies and such, which is simply an added role to the one already assumed by the title they have.The simple O.C.P. at the end of someones signature or what not fills that void fine. Or even Rev. as has been used here for a while is widely used among religions, which is also fine to point out the fact that someone is of the clergy. On the other hand by basing what clergy rank you are with what Jedi rank you are, is intertwining them as well. I do ask, why do those who choose to serve in a Clergy capacity deserve more respect than those who do not? They are Jedi just the same, they just choose to offer more of their time and effort, which is admirable yes, but not necessarily deserving of more respect than any other Jedi. Do I have other names that could be used, no, simply because I don't believe it is necesary. Do note Br. Tom, I mean no offense by any of this discussion, so I hope you are not taking it that way, I'm just expressing my views and beliefs.

DK

I do not take offense, or I would have made that known. However, I also believe that any member of the Clergy are due respect to them in that distinction as well as whatever distinction they are as a Jedi. It is not a \"better\" thing but as you said a \"more\" thing. No one is any better than anyone else, but i do believe that those who offer more of thier time and talents deserve to be recognized for it, as is in the military (of which you are a part, yes?)

Now, with regard to how they are known, the varying ranks of Clergy all come with thier own distinct responsibilites. Yes they are religious leaders and counselors, but each level (as in the military) as its own unique responsibilities.

Regarding basing rank on Jedi Level, they are not one in the same. However, Do you not agree that a person who is clergy and can ordain new clergy (A bishop) should have an advanced knowledge of Jediism and how it relates to other religions and have shown themselves of the ability to make these discernments soundly? Like wise, do you not agree that anyone should be able to be a minister?

Now, my personal thoughts have not truly been expressed here.
\"If it isn't broke, don't fix it.\"
How is this broken?

Also, if the issue is that it was borrowed from other religions then i would ask, what about our doctrine itself. all of our teachings and values are a modern organization of very ancient ideals, Borrowed from many ancient religions. Why would this be any different?

It's not so much broken, as just being questioned is all. You did point out a very important and generally unknown fact, the ranking commitee only handled the Jedi rankings, not the clergy.
I used the example of Catholics because it is the most commonly known to use such titles and most widely seen by people on TV, movies, and whatnot.
I pointed this out in my prior post that could serve to help identify our clergy members;
\"...if you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.\"

I see nothing wrong with the names of the ranks. It makes it feel more like the church that we are instead of just an organization.

Rev. Justice wrote:

It's not so much broken, as just being questioned is all. You did point out a very important and generally unknown fact, the ranking commitee only handled the Jedi rankings, not the clergy.
I used the example of Catholics because it is the most commonly known to use such titles and most widely seen by people on TV, movies, and whatnot.
I pointed this out in my prior post that could serve to help identify our clergy members;
\"...if you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.\"

I understand this, and it is up to each member what thier screenname is. I leave mine as is for familiarity and also when you change it you lose all of your saved PM's and I want to keep them all. I do not think it would be prudent to force anyone to change thier screen name. Also, as i mentions before, this would be addressed by the completed and full member database. All members will (once it is up) be able to search the list and see who is what and so forth. so this will then be Moot.

What I think is going on here is a general misunderstanding of what Bishop Whiteman is trying to say. These designations (the term I prefer over rank) are necessary. As Bishop Whiteman has already pointed out, those who attain the level of Jedi Master are not necessarily members of the Clergy. So, if you did not have the separate ranks for Jedi and Clergy then it would get very confusing indeed. Also, having the separate Clergy designation recognizes the extra time and involvement someone has given to this Temple. This does not make someone \"better\" but, just as someone who has put more time in school deserves extra titles, so too, do these men and women deserve extra recognition.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I don't believe there needs to be a separate rank to go with being a clergy person. Members of the Clergy are merely offering themselves to serve the role of religious leader of ceremonies and such, which is simply an added role to the one already assumed by the title they have.The simple O.C.P. at the end of someones signature or what not fills that void fine. Or even Rev. as has been used here for a while is widely used among religions, which is also fine to point out the fact that someone is of the clergy. On the other hand by basing what clergy rank you are with what Jedi rank you are, is intertwining them as well. I do ask, why do those who choose to serve in a Clergy capacity deserve more respect than those who do not? They are Jedi just the same, they just choose to offer more of their time and effort, which is admirable yes, but not necessarily deserving of more respect than any other Jedi. Do I have other names that could be used, no, simply because I don't believe it is necesary. Do note Br. Tom, I mean no offense by any of this discussion, so I hope you are not taking it that way, I'm just expressing my views and beliefs.

DK

Clergy covers a lot of territory. There are five possible clergy orders with different powers and privilege's.

Commission - this is given to a member for a special one time event like conducting the marriage of a friend or for a limited mission.

License - the powers of a Deacon but not ordained and this can be revoked.

Deacon - Holy Orders and cannot be revoked.

Priest - Holy Orders and cannot be revoked. A Priest(ess) may take a confession under the seal recognized by law and act as a spiritual
counselor among other things.

Bishop - The fullness of holy orders and the only clergy who can Ordain! Irrevocable.

So a minister has no power to license or ordain another minister.

Is this starting to make sense?

Br. John

The various clergy titles used are very familiar to me. I mean I was an ordained deacon aspiring to become a priest. (A few titles that are missing however are Cardinal and Pope). I can (especially with my turbulant relationship with the Church) relate to there being a bitter taste in peoples mouths when hearing these titles. The picture very often often presnted when talking about Bishops.... are pompos, very lordly, rich, above the ordinary persons. Maybe this is not true for all but many do feel this way. Or maybe there are other pictures which are generated by these titles. The thing is what generally seems to be forgotten is, that these titles are not markers to distinguish but are gifts or responsabilities. The title is not ment to glorify the person carrying it but the person is supposed to use this gift to help others. If there is any respect it should be what the title stands for (values). The person can be admired for doing a paricular work but not more than any other person with equal integrity. Unfortunately only too often in history have people with this ranking abused their position for power. Why should these titles not be used, when I consider that we will be probably dealing with a lot of non Jedi. These are titles who people can relate to, associate with. It is time then that we with these titles made a difference. What I really appreciate about TOTJO is that really everyone has the chance to become a minister. This is definitely not the case in the Roman Catholic Church.

Look, if this is what everyone wants, fine, I was just expressing my concerns and beliefs. However, I will not be calling anyone Bishop, Monsigner (sp), Rabbi or anything else for that matter. The whole purpose originally though of for using these ranks was for teaching purposes, and it already has seemed to go beyond that. In my eyes we are all on equal ground, regardless of how much time we put into this place. Not all of us have the same amount of time to put into it, if I could put in more I would, but I would not expect any extra recognition for it.

Chapter 7 of the Tao Te Ching (First book of Jediism) tells us:
Heaven and Earth last forever.
WHy do heaven and Earth last forever?
They are unborn,
So ever living.
The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead.
He is detached, thus at one with all.
Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment.

Meaning by not seeking recognition for action, doing it selflessly you become more fulfilled.

In addition, Chapter 19 says:
Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.
Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And men will rediscover filial piety and love.
Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,
And badits and thieves will disappear.
These three are outward forms alone; they are not sufficient in themnselves.
It is more important
To see the simplicity,
To realize one's true nature,
To cast off selfishness
And temper desire.

Meaning by casting away things that make us seem better than others in one way or another, people will stop looking to you to make their lives better, and focus on making thier lives better on their own.

Yes, I am in the military, and yes we use ranks, but they are not so much for a measure of knowledge or experience, but more for authority reasons than anything else. Yes I hold rank an put lots of time into defending our country, but I do not expect anyone here to call me Sargeant, nor do I expect special recognition. When I speak about my military experience, it is to express things that have happened that I learned from, to hopefully help others learn from as well, or to tell a funny story.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Look, if this is what everyone wants, fine, I was just expressing my concerns and beliefs. However, I will not be calling anyone Bishop, Monsigner (sp), Rabbi or anything else for that matter. The whole purpose originally though of for using these ranks was for teaching purposes, and it already has seemed to go beyond that. In my eyes we are all on equal ground, regardless of how much time we put into this place. Not all of us have the same amount of time to put into it, if I could put in more I would, but I would not expect any extra recognition for it.

Chapter 7 of the Tao Te Ching (First book of Jediism) tells us:
Heaven and Earth last forever.
WHy do heaven and Earth last forever?
They are unborn,
So ever living.
The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead.
He is detached, thus at one with all.
Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment.

Meaning by not seeking recognition for action, doing it selflessly you become more fulfilled.

In addition, Chapter 19 says:
Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.
Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And men will rediscover filial piety and love.
Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,
And badits and thieves will disappear.
These three are outward forms alone; they are not sufficient in themnselves.
It is more important
To see the simplicity,
To realize one's true nature,
To cast off selfishness
And temper desire.

Meaning by casting away things that make us seem better than others in one way or another, people will stop looking to you to make their lives better, and focus on making thier lives better on their own.

Yes, I am in the military, and yes we use ranks, but they are not so much for a measure of knowledge or experience, but more for authority reasons than anything else. Yes I hold rank an put lots of time into defending our country, but I do not expect anyone here to call me Sargeant, nor do I expect special recognition. When I speak about my military experience, it is to express things that have happened that I learned from, to hopefully help others learn from as well, or to tell a funny story.

DK

My dear friend, When it comes to the use of titles when addressing other's I use the following creedo and I think it will work for you as well: Call me what you would want to be called were you me.

I don't think you can really go wrong in it's use

Are you sure, caue being in the Military, has given me a pennant for making up names to either correlate with last names, or something stupid someone has done, to remind them of it forever. Like since you have White in your name, I'd probably call you whitey, not out of anything racial, its just short and catchy. Somehow I haven't got any nicknames that have stuck though, I must be boring.

DK

That was my Nickname throughout Junior High and High school actually.

See how that works.

I did however after looking up Clergy Titles in google, find that Cleric is used throughout pretty much all religions, as any member of the Clergy, so I would have no qualms about that one. For example Ranks or designations whatever you'd like to call them could go as such:

Non Clergy --- Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

It sounds more universal, and takes more from a multitude of religions than a few specific ones, and also sounds more like something that would come from Jediism. Any thoughts?

DK

I think the use of only one title would confuse some. Because each one carries with it different responsibilities that are indeed seperate from those of one's Jedi designation.

And just to add to that, the current designation system is more easily accepted by those who are non-Jedi. Cleric sounds like something from the middle ages or a really good movie (i.e. Equilibrium). Whereas Minister or Reverend already has a good track record. Does that make sense?

(On a personal Level, Love the name though. Cleric does indeed sound like something from a Jedi Church. Perhaps we can expand upon that?)

That's why I used the words Jedi Cleric in the ceremony outlines we have been working on. It just \"fit\".

True, the movie Equilibrium was one of the best action movies in my eyes, I didn't get the name from it. Like I said I googled Clergy titles, and read through it, and saw that Cleric was a universal name for a clergy person. I agree with Br. Justice, it does just seem to fit, and it has a nice ring too it, if I might add. I'm unsure how it would confuse people, there would still be a distict difference in the title of Clergy members and non, but the rankings themselves would still be present, I think it would actually be less confusing that way, than having an entirely different \"ranking\" structure for the clergy. Plus, it helps to keep everyone intertwined by using much of the same terminology, as opposed to setting themselves completely outside of normal Jedi. As you know Br. Tom, I'm not concerned about how much acceptance we get from non-Jedi, especially since they don't take us seriously anyways. So why conform to thier standards and practices, this way, once we finally are accepted, we will be more of a stand alone entity. Besides, most people don't know what \"Imam\" stands for, I admittidly was one of them, till recently, but it is still used in Islam. They didn't care what outsiders thought of thier names and titles, I don't believe we should either.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

True, the movie Equilibrium was one of the best action movies in my eyes, I didn't get the name from it. Like I said I googled Clergy titles, and read through it, and saw that Cleric was a universal name for a clergy person. I agree with Br. Justice, it does just seem to fit, and it has a nice ring too it, if I might add. I'm unsure how it would confuse people, there would still be a distict difference in the title of Clergy members and non, but the rankings themselves would still be present, I think it would actually be less confusing that way, than having an entirely different \"ranking\" structure for the clergy. Plus, it helps to keep everyone intertwined by using much of the same terminology, as opposed to setting themselves completely outside of normal Jedi. As you know Br. Tom, I'm not concerned about how much acceptance we get from non-Jedi, especially since they don't take us seriously anyways. So why conform to thier standards and practices, this way, once we finally are accepted, we will be more of a stand alone entity. Besides, most people don't know what \"Imam\" stands for, I admittidly was one of them, till recently, but it is still used in Islam. They didn't care what outsiders thought of thier names and titles, I don't believe we should either.

DK

Well, first things first, it would be somewhat confusing because there is then no real distinction between clergy with more and less responsibility as such. and because the Jedi designation does not denote those responsibilites (and can't because they are seperate) it would be difficult to discern who is what regarding clergy.

Second, With regard to how we are viewed by others, I understand your feelings. However, in order to continue this movement and church, we need to consider how to best reach others. and we cannot do that with an \"I don't care what you think\" attitude.

You could for the clergy, concerning the use of Cleric, drop the Jedi part.

So for example you would have a Cleric Apprentice instead of a Jedi Apprentice and so on.