RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

  • Twsoundsoff
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29 May 2007 01:15 #2646 by Twsoundsoff
RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy was created by Twsoundsoff
Alright everyone, here is the low down on ranking as it relates between Jedi and Clergy. For those of you whom I unknowingly missinformed, I deeply apologize.

Jedi Master (if Clergy then is also Bishop)
Sr. Jedi Knight (If also Clergy then is Msgr.)
Jedi Knight (If clergy then Reverend)
Jedi Knight Apprentice (If Clergy then Reverend)
Jedi Knight Initiate (If Clergy then Reverend)


Once again, If I have informed you otherwise please accept my apologies. MTFBWY

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  • Dhagon Krayt
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29 May 2007 18:09 #2669 by Dhagon Krayt
Replied by Dhagon Krayt on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
If I may express my thoughts and feelings on this matter. I object to these separate ranks for clergy on the fact that it makes them seem possibly above or atleast outside of any other Jedi. Being clergy is a choice made by those who wish to be able to do ceremonies, I personally think every Jedi should also be clergy, but thats just my personal opinion. Being clergy though, should not give special titles, or added benefits to being a Jedi in anyway, by creating separate ranking structures you automatically separte those who are clergy from those who are not, and in a way undermine the ranking system the members have already set up. Even with the title of this post, it is placeing the two (Jedi and Clergy) into separate categories, which should not be done.

Secondly if the members still wish there to be a separte ranking system for Clergy personel there should be one developed that does not use titles or structure from another religion. If I were looking at this from the outside in, by seeing titles already in use by another religion, I would automatically think it is an extention of that religion or somehow affiliated with it. Unless it is a term used by many different religions already.

Just my thoughts, but I'd like to see others thoughts on this as well, those who feel compelled to say something, please do.

DK

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29 May 2007 18:22 #2671 by Garm
Replied by Garm on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
agreed, our order being in essence a religious body, from the moment one takes the oath we represent the Order. If one does not feel comfortable preforming the higher duties of clergy then so be it. But there is the bear miminuim if called upon that every member must be ready to preform, that is I believe, emergency baptisms, and death bed confessions / absolutions, have to check with Br John on the last one. As far as titles, well again we sould be unique. The Jedi titles work fine, but hey that's just me.
Lenny
Knight of Jediism

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  • Justice
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29 May 2007 18:55 #2674 by Justice
Replied by Justice on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
I believe the title of the post, \"Jedi Vs. Clergy\", is misleading. Jedi and Clergy would be better suited. I agree with Dhagon, the titles given tend to give off a \"Catholic\" feel to them. The definitions of our ranks first posted for us were as follows (taken directly from one of Bishop Whiteman's post);

Master- This rank is achieved when a Sr. Knight completes the training of his apprentice who then becomes a full knight and takes an apprentice of their own. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience.)

Sr. Knight- This rank is bestowed upon those knights who take an apprentice. The taking of an apprentice is an added responsibility far beyond those of a regular Jedi knight and as such this rank carries the same Autonomy as a Master. This rank holds even after the Sr. Knights first apprentice graduates. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Jedi Knight - This Rank is bestowed upon those who have completed the training of a Master or Sr. Knight in full. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Knight apprentice- This rank is bestowed upon those who are currently in training under a Master or Sr. Knight

Knight Initiate - This rank is bestowed upon those who become members of this church by filling out the registration form and taking the oath.

Using these definitions is what caused me to lable myself as a Sr. Knight by mistake because my clergy certificate states I am a \"Knight of Jediism\" and I now have an apprentice. By the definionof a Sr. Knight, it fits. Now, that being said, why aren't we using these as our titles by themselves? They are generic to Jediism. Could not Masters that are clergy still be called Master instead of Bishop? All ordained clegy persons could be called Rev. Just as apprentices call the Master, Sr. Knight, or Knight that trains them \"Master\" as a sign of respect, is being an ordained clergy person and being referred to as just Rev. any less respectful while performing the task and duties assigned to clergy? I understand Br John is the Sr. Pastor of our temple, so what is wrong with addressing him as Rev. John Phelan or addressing Bishop Whiteman as Rev. Whiteman as in the past? Could we not add a page to the Main Menu that lists the official position within the Order that those individuals hold as far a church function goes, i.e. Rev. Tom Whiteman, Bishop and so on? I understand the need for rank structure all too well given my military background, but after much thought and Dhagon expressing his concern, I ask why did we choose to use the terms we did for the clergy over a Jedi specific title?
Also, our use of \"screen names\" is a problem in and of it's self, so to speak. If you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.
None of this was said to offend anyone. Just thoughts and questions that were running through one person's mind.

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  • Twsoundsoff
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29 May 2007 19:10 #2676 by Twsoundsoff
Replied by Twsoundsoff on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
Being Clergy does not give any added benefits to being a Jedi. It is a personal Choice for each person whether or not they wish to be a member of the Clergy or carry that responsibility. With each growth in rank as a Jedi comes growth for those who are clergy as well. Clergy are niether above nor outside of Jedi. They just serve in a different manner. Those who are clergy should indeed be distinguished differently than those who are not. Not only so that we can tell who is and who is not clergy, but also to show respect to those who serve in that capacity.

Not all Jedi are Clergy. Not all Jedi want to be clergy.


Insofar as the titles currently used they are used in many religions actually. Catholics and most protestants of course. Also, scientology uses a loose form of this, as does The Church of Latter day Saints, although the mormons have a slightly different name for lower clergy. but Bishop is used by the Mormons as is.
I don't see any reason why this would not be changeable. I do see the greatest advantage of the current system, however, in that the titles are well known throughout the world and so lend themselves to recognition with little or no explanation.
As far as seeing the Jedi as affiliated with catholicism or any other organization I don't really see that as realistic.

Also the titles are in direct relation to jediism itself. As an example My full consecration is that of Bishop of Jediism. so they are in fact dealing directly with Jediism.

So that poses the next obvious question; Dhagon, what do you think the titles should be instead of the current clergy titles, and why?

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29 May 2007 19:10 #2677 by Twsoundsoff
Replied by Twsoundsoff on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
Being Clergy does not give any added benefits to being a Jedi. It is a personal Choice for each person whether or not they wish to be a member of the Clergy or carry that responsibility. With each growth in rank as a Jedi comes growth for those who are clergy as well. Clergy are niether above nor outside of Jedi. They just serve in a different manner. Those who are clergy should indeed be distinguished differently than those who are not. Not only so that we can tell who is and who is not clergy, but also to show respect to those who serve in that capacity.

Not all Jedi are Clergy. Not all Jedi want to be clergy.


Insofar as the titles currently used they are used in many religions actually. Catholics and most protestants of course. Also, scientology uses a loose form of this, as does The Church of Latter day Saints, although the mormons have a slightly different name for lower clergy. but Bishop is used by the Mormons as is.
I don't see any reason why this would not be changeable. I do see the greatest advantage of the current system, however, in that the titles are well known throughout the world and so lend themselves to recognition with little or no explanation.
As far as seeing the Jedi as affiliated with catholicism or any other organization I don't really see that as realistic.

Also the titles are in direct relation to jediism itself. As an example My full consecration is that of Bishop of Jediism. so they are in fact dealing directly with Jediism.

So that poses the next obvious question; Dhagon, what do you think the titles should be instead of the current clergy titles, and why?

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29 May 2007 19:15 #2678 by Twsoundsoff
Replied by Twsoundsoff on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
Rev. Justice wrote:

I believe the title of the post, \"Jedi Vs. Clergy\", is misleading. Jedi and Clergy would be better suited. I agree with Dhagon, the titles given tend to give off a \"Catholic\" feel to them. The definitions of our ranks first posted for us were as follows (taken directly from one of Bishop Whiteman's post);

Master- This rank is achieved when a Sr. Knight completes the training of his apprentice who then becomes a full knight and takes an apprentice of their own. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience.)

Sr. Knight- This rank is bestowed upon those knights who take an apprentice. The taking of an apprentice is an added responsibility far beyond those of a regular Jedi knight and as such this rank carries the same Autonomy as a Master. This rank holds even after the Sr. Knights first apprentice graduates. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Jedi Knight - This Rank is bestowed upon those who have completed the training of a Master or Sr. Knight in full. (this rank may be awarded based on previous experience)

Knight apprentice- This rank is bestowed upon those who are currently in training under a Master or Sr. Knight

Knight Initiate - This rank is bestowed upon those who become members of this church by filling out the registration form and taking the oath.

Using these definitions is what caused me to lable myself as a Sr. Knight by mistake because my clergy certificate states I am a \"Knight of Jediism\" and I now have an apprentice. By the definionof a Sr. Knight, it fits. Now, that being said, why aren't we using these as our titles by themselves? They are generic to Jediism. Could not Masters that are clergy still be called Master instead of Bishop? All ordained clegy persons could be called Rev. Just as apprentices call the Master, Sr. Knight, or Knight that trains them \"Master\" as a sign of respect, is being an ordained clergy person and being referred to as just Rev. any less respectful while performing the task and duties assigned to clergy? I understand Br John is the Sr. Pastor of our temple, so what is wrong with addressing him as Rev. John Phelan or addressing Bishop Whiteman as Rev. Whiteman as in the past? Could we not add a page to the Main Menu that lists the official position within the Order that those individuals hold as far a church function goes, i.e. Rev. Tom Whiteman, Bishop and so on? I understand the need for rank structure all too well given my military background, but after much thought and Dhagon expressing his concern, I ask why did we choose to use the terms we did for the clergy over a Jedi specific title?
Also, our use of \"screen names\" is a problem in and of it's self, so to speak. If you are a member of the clergy, why not use the screen name Rev. So-and-so as a way to identify ourselves as clergy instead of (only using these as examples) Twsoundsoff or Dan? I know we identify who we are in our signiture blocks, but why not just make it easier for the users by adapting our screen names and listing our ranks in the signature block? Someone looking through the member list for the first time has no idea who the members of the clergy are. We as clergy are here for the members of the Order, so why not make it easier for the members to identify us as they need to.
None of this was said to offend anyone. Just thoughts and questions that were running through one person's mind.


That will actually be addressed when we get the full list up and running. It will show who is what, etc... and will be fully browseable.

In so far as the title's themselves go i will say again, Not all Jedi are Clergy. no they must be disticintive from one another. and also, the ranking committee was not concerned with clergy ranking but with jedi Ranking, that is why they were never discussed. The ranking committee does not have any power with regard to clergy ranking and so forth. It is merely to handle the workings of Jedi ranking alone. and as they must be seperate due to the fact that all Jedi are not clergy, so is the ranking committee in discernment with regard to clergy rank.

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29 May 2007 19:22 #2679 by Twsoundsoff
Replied by Twsoundsoff on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
Folks, if you see a problem or take issue with something, please don't merely express that concern, please offer solutions as well. In this matter, it is simply a fact that we must accept that Jedi and Clergy are not the same. Some are one, some are Both, and because of that they must be held in seperate distinctions. but please offer what you would consider as Jedi Clergy titles.

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  • aximili007
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29 May 2007 19:47 #2681 by aximili007
Replied by aximili007 on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
I was asked earlier what I thought about this topic and after reading the thread I believe that the currently system can be used to identify clergy as well. Clergy in other religions are the teachers, pasters, and guids of their religion. It would seem that the Mater and Sr. knight are those positions. They are the ones that take on apprentices and guid the flock. A inititiate, and apprentice are the learners. They are new to the order and do not yet know all that is happening. A Jedi Knight is simply someone who has completed their personal training. If they do not what to be clergy and take on apprentices then thats as high as one needs to go. Even in the star wars fiction only a very few Jedi where Masters, and not every Jedi has an apprentice all the time. My suggestion is simply to make the last two ranks, Sr. knight and Master the ranks of the clergy.

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29 May 2007 19:51 #2682 by Twsoundsoff
Replied by Twsoundsoff on topic RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy
aximili007 wrote:

I was asked earlier what I thought about this topic and after reading the thread I believe that the currently system can be used to identify clergy as well. Clergy in other religions are the teachers, pasters, and guids of their religion. It would seem that the Mater and Sr. knight are those positions. They are the ones that take on apprentices and guid the flock. A inititiate, and apprentice are the learners. They are new to the order and do not yet know all that is happening. A Jedi Knight is simply someone who has completed their personal training. If they do not what to be clergy and take on apprentices then thats as high as one needs to go. Even in the star wars fiction only a very few Jedi where Masters, and not every Jedi has an apprentice all the time. My suggestion is simply to make the last two ranks, Sr. knight and Master the ranks of the clergy.


My apologies, but that would be inappropriate as not all Jedi are Clergy and not all Jedi want to be.

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