Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

steamboat28 wrote:

tzb wrote: Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

Feminism is not "gender equality" in an actual sense. Feminism is, and always has been, about the rise of women to a level of equity with men. It's solely about women's issues, and as the gap between men and women closes socially, economically, politically, etc., the term is less and less useful in first world countries.

Anyone who tells you that feminism is about "gender equality" or "men's problems, too" either doesn't understand those statements, doesn't understand feminism, or is feeding you a line to get you to self-identify as a feminist. You can be pro-gender-equality and not be a feminist, and you can be a feminist and be against gender equality.

And you are basing this on what exactly?

Let me tell you a few feminist issues which directly impact men:

• Circumicision without consent: circumcision of an infant is unethical because the infant cannot consent, but the procedure will affect the infant long after it has grown out of that phase.
• The draft: in the US, all men are required to register for selective service in order to vote, receive loans from the government, or work in many government jobs.
• Default parent: although there is evidence to the contrary, the common understanding is that women will receive primary custody of any children after a divorce de facto.
  
• Rape: men who try to report rape are often ignored, dismissed, or assumed to be the perpetrator.

I'm not sure where the idea that feminism doesn't address issues which directly affect men is coming from nor is the idea that feminism is inherently sexist based in anything but the ill-conceived notions of people with an ax to grind.

I'd tend to view feminism as more strictly just the advocacy for womens rights within and against the systematic and institutionalized discrimination from the male dominated societies the world has inherited, but if that process also shines a bit of light on other areas of established discriminatory practises against other 'minorities' or disenfranchised groups including some men, then its another good thing resulting from feminism, but I personally would not call it feminism, rather just part of the broader human rights movement for which feminism is the most urgent IMO.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Whyte Horse wrote: Dude, what's your problem? You seem to have this bizarre, abstract, academic perception of women and feminism. Maybe you need to go read a book. I know women who "wrote the book" on feminism. They're my mother, grandmother, sisters, wife, and friends. I've asked them what feminism is about and they talk about things like being beaten by abusive men, left to raise kids without support, stuff like that. I show them examples of modern feminists and they throw up in the back of their throats and go wow, what a bitch. So yeah it's like that.

My problem is that you can call women bitches and I have yet to see anyone get up in arms about it, but if I even say the word feminism you act like I've said the most vile word ever and people rush to your defense.

Talking to women doesn't constitute feminism, sorry try again.

Well if talking to women doesn't constitute feminism then maybe it's just some made up BS like the flying spaghetti monster.

Whyte Horse wrote: Well if talking to women doesn't constitute feminism then maybe it's just some made up BS like the flying spaghetti monster.

Non sequitur.

Jamie Stick wrote: Let me tell you a few feminist issues which directly impact men:

• Circumicision without consent: circumcision of an infant is unethical because the infant cannot consent, but the procedure will affect the infant long after it has grown out of that phase.
• The draft: in the US, all men are required to register for selective service in order to vote, receive loans from the government, or work in many government jobs.
• Default parent: although there is evidence to the contrary, the common understanding is that women will receive primary custody of any children after a divorce de facto.
  
• Rape: men who try to report rape are often ignored, dismissed, or assumed to be the perpetrator.

Citations that these are actual feminist issues and not just intersectional issues that feminists generally also agree are problems?

Jamie Stick wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

tzb wrote: Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

Feminism is not "gender equality" in an actual sense. Feminism is, and always has been, about the rise of women to a level of equity with men. It's solely about women's issues, and as the gap between men and women closes socially, economically, politically, etc., the term is less and less useful in first world countries.

Anyone who tells you that feminism is about "gender equality" or "men's problems, too" either doesn't understand those statements, doesn't understand feminism, or is feeding you a line to get you to self-identify as a feminist. You can be pro-gender-equality and not be a feminist, and you can be a feminist and be against gender equality.

And you are basing this on what exactly?

Let me tell you a few feminist issues which directly impact men:

• Circumicision without consent: circumcision of an infant is unethical because the infant cannot consent, but the procedure will affect the infant long after it has grown out of that phase.
• The draft: in the US, all men are required to register for selective service in order to vote, receive loans from the government, or work in many government jobs.
• Default parent: although there is evidence to the contrary, the common understanding is that women will receive primary custody of any children after a divorce de facto.
  
• Rape: men who try to report rape are often ignored, dismissed, or assumed to be the perpetrator.

I'm not sure where the idea that feminism doesn't address issues which directly affect men is coming from nor is the idea that feminism is inherently sexist based in anything but the ill-conceived notions of people with an ax to grind.

circumcision: Still perfectly legal in many places, feminists often mention how FGM is atrocious, purposely specifying "female genital mutilation" and not the shorter and sexism-free "genital mutilation", in an act of conscious discrimination against men.

draft: that's what men need to register for if they ever hope to be a citizen who has a right to be involved in their country's running or to benefit from their country's investment. Thanks to feminism women not only still do not need to register for the draft to benefit from this, but actually receive special loans and are guaranteed quotas to make it even easier for them to access these roles and funding than a duly-registered man.

default parent: feminist lobby groups have actively boycotted democratic efforts by men to get the same treatment in court. It should be noted that the historical progression of feminism coincides with the regression of father's rights.

rape: Feminism constantly promotes the idea that rape is a male problem, that men are rapists, that sex between men and women is rape (of the woman). Which is true in a way: that's what the law says now (in the UK), so on that point feminism is actually not lying for once. Turning every woman into a potential "rape" victim and future generations of men into legal experts who walk around with contracts in their pockets instead of condoms isn't something I'd boast about if I were a feminist.

steamboat28 wrote: Citations that these are actual feminist issues and not just intersectional issues that feminists generally also agree are problems?

Andrea Dworkin (if you are familiar with the name Dworkin, then you should know she's regarded as one the most hateful feminists to have ever written, yet still she was never about hating men)

Judith Butler (obtusely academic, but largely concerned with patriarchal and gender roles and how those have negatively impacted men in society. I would say Undoing Gende r is primary source of her work for discussing how men and women are affect by patrarichy)

Any of the authors in Men Doing Feminism .

Butler covers the issues of gender roles and the ethics of circumcision, many of the authors in Men Doing Feminism cover all four issues I mentioned, and Dworkin has a speech which may be illuminating (because of the filtering system on my network, I am not sure that that is the full speech, but when I Googled it this was the most promising search result).

ren wrote: circumcision: Still perfectly legal in many places, feminists often mention how FGM is atrocious, purposely specifying "female genital mutilation" and not the shorter and sexism-free "genital mutilation", in an act of conscious discrimination against men.

Many things that are legal are not "right", legality of a thing does not equate to being right. Addressing FGM isn't sexist in the sense you're using it, but it does conflate the issue of body and gender. I think FGM is such a big issue because at no time in history has FGM ever been (from a medical standpoint) beneficial, whereas the practice of penile circumcision at one time (long, long ago) had hygienic functionality. The fact that penile circumcision is no longer necessary for hygiene eliminates the last (and only) ethical defense for circumcision without consent.

ren wrote: draft: that's what men need to register for if they ever hope to be a citizen who has a right to be involved in their country's running or to benefit from their country's investment.

There are a number of feminist perspectives on the draft, but I'm with Emma Goldman in thinking that the answer is not to have women register for selective service like men but rather eliminate the draft altogether. No one should be coerced into military service.

ren wrote: default parent: feminist lobby groups have actively boycotted democratic efforts by men to get the same treatment in court. It should be noted that the historical progression of feminism coincides with the regression of father's rights.

[ Citation Needed ]

As I said, there is evidence to the contrary of this belief, but all the same feminist thinkers have undertaken the task of critiquing this backward policy.

ren wrote: rape: Feminism constantly promotes the idea that rape is a male problem, that men are rapists, that sex between men and women is rape (of the woman). Which is true in a way: that's what the law says now (in the UK), so on that point feminism is actually not lying for once. Turning every woman into a potential "rape" victim and future generations of men into legal experts who walk around with contracts in their pockets instead of condoms isn't something I'd boast about if I were a feminist.

I think you're conflating two issues. Feminists promote the idea that the responsibility of rape lies with the rapist, which has translated into men are responsible for rape. That is not the same, logically or linguistically, as what you're claiming they say.

What I was pointing out is that feminism has brought out discussion about the way in which patriarchy has made it such that men are assumed to be incapable of being raped.

What I was pointing out is that feminism has brought out discussion about the way in which patriarchy has made it such that men are assumed to be incapable of being raped.

What I was pointing out is that feminism doesn't help men. I talk about male victims of rape and already it's the patriarchy's fault. That is what victim blaming is. If it's not current men, it was their fathers and their grandfathers' fault. It never is women's. It's not the female rapist's fault (she's a victim), it's not rape because to be a rapist you need a penis and she doesn't have one, it's not institutionalised bias brought forth by a majority (women) against a minority (men). it's the patriarchy. Because even if men are complaining that *something* isn't in their interest, surely that *something* must be in their interest, because they're men and it's the patriarchy. Unless those men are complaining about feminism. Feminism is there for men, unlike the patriarchy, especially to those who don't know what they're supposed to complain about or who they should complain to.

This has gone a lot of different directions really quickly so I'm just going to give my thoughts on the topic in general, not really addressing any particular arguments made (or had) since the OP.

I can say that I have seen the trend of men being afraid to help women, or even talk to them. I once spent most of the morning formulating the correct way to compliment a female co-worker on a new skirt because I knew that if I said it wrong I could suffer some consequences. Although for me it's doubly bad because I don't want a sexual harassment charge and I don't want my co-workers thinking that I'm trying to cheat on my fiance. It's rough.

We had an intern over the summer that was a feminist and she and I spent quite a bit of time talking. At first she seemed like the kind of feminist truly concerned with equality, she wanted to pay for her own stuff on dates (or at least take turns paying), she opened doors on her own but didn't complain if I guy just happened to get to it first, etc; but as the summer went on she started to get more and more extreme. I'm all for equality, I'm not okay with being told that I'm demeaning women simply because I have a penis. I just don't get that. (She literally said that to me).

My fiance is for equality. If I get to the door first I open it. If she gets there first she opens it. We have a joint account that we contribute to equally (even though she makes more than I do) that we use to pay all of our bills and our dates. When we were just starting out we took turns paying for dates. (it confused the crap out of the servers when she'd reach for the bill :laugh: ). I did once try to argue that leaving the toilet seat up was an equality thing because it was me assuming that she was smart enough to put it down herself, that backfired. :lol:

As with all things it's about balance. Typically to achieve balance a scale must tip both directions first, possibly multiple times. This might just be the scale tipping the other way before finally settling in at a good balance. Of course, we must also remember that there is NO circumstance in which every person is happy. Some one will be upset and will say it's unfair. We have to live with that.