Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

Sadly there is a very noticeable difference here in America. Although it also depends on where you are. Example...Utah vs Michigan.

When I was a young teen, just learning about gender roles and formalities I was taught all the niceties....the old school way. You know. Smiling and saying thank you when a Man open's a door for you, carrying around a secret bit of cash in your bra or shoe just in case your male counterpart run's short on the date funds, making sure you thank and even boost the ego of your male counterpart when he helps you to get something from the top shelf...even if you could have done all these things yourself, that is not the point here.

Now a days it is a miricle if a man opens a door for the girl. Like...seriously. In all my life only two men did that for me, and each time my jaw practically dropped (you can imagine how many compliments I dished out - poor fellow may of died from blushing lol) .

And then I read about my sister going on a huge rant because how dare that one boy open the door, and just to spite him she went through a completely different one because she was perfectly capable of doing it herself.

I also remember a time when a girl even smaller then me (really tiny small chick) thought she could man it up with the rest of them and unload the truck like the macho boys....poor thing nearly got crushed under pallets >_<

So yea....I completely believe that there is a huge change in these mannerisms of late.

Now that men are facing actual consequences for serious violations of their workplace policies,

Um...

I face possible consequences at an accusation...

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

Seems I see that here too from many facets of humainty...

But, yea, I got tunnel vision, its called my family, and no accusation, no perceived slight, is going to fuck up my income to provide for them...

So, open your own door, notice your own dress, yada, yada...

You don't see the retractions and corrections making the headlines, or getting jobs back, or helping get the next job...

So which one is it? Women aren't advancing because men won't help them because:
a.) fear of false sexual harassment claims
b.) fear of "strong women"
c.) the men are mysogynists
d.) women are cold-hearted, lying bitches that hate men

I wouldn't say it was because men have stopped helping. I'd simply say that anybody with a chip on their shoulder and a self proclaimed right to aggressively push their beliefs on others is disruptive to a work place, perceived as a greater legal risk and is thus undesirable.

Jestor wrote: I face possible consequences at an accusation...

This isn't about you, that's the problem. Just because you face consequences for an accusation doesn't mean that reflects the whole.

Jestor wrote:

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

If by fixed you mean "castrated" perhaps, but otherwise no you just missed my point entirely.

Whyte Horse wrote: So which one is it? Women aren't advancing because men won't help them because:
a.) fear of false sexual harassment claims
b.) fear of "strong women"
c.) the men are mysogynists
d.) women are cold-hearted, lying bitches that hate men

The fact that you have to first demean women to make your point is quite telling. *hums "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong"*

Jamie Stick wrote:

Jestor wrote: I face possible consequences at an accusation...

This isn't about you, that's the problem. Just because you face consequences for an accusation doesn't mean that reflects the whole.

You are right, my life is about those who depend on me, like my family....

I lost one job due to my offending someone, and rather than tell me, they reported me...

Went from 64k to 18k in one year...

I'm speaking with experience...

Was I wrong, yep, technically, I was wrong... Could the reporting person handled it different, was it worth ruining my life?

I think most folks share "off color" remarks/jokes with friends, well I guess he wasn't really a friend...

It was my fault, and my family suffered, it won't happen again...

Even the hint of intentional impropriety will be avoided...

This topic is very much about "me" and why i act like I do....

I get improper jokes and stuff still shared with me, if I reported them, poof, gone... And, its women sharing with me...

But, "once bitten, yada, yada" I mind my own....

Jestor wrote:

[strike]men[/strike] humans have a ridiculous case of tunnel vision.

Fixed that for ya...

If by fixed you mean "castrated" perhaps, but otherwise no you just missed my point entirely.

Oh no, I didn't miss your point...

I hope you caught mine?

Jestor wrote: You are right, my life is about those who depend on me, like my family....

I lost one job due to my offending someone, and rather than tell me, they reported me...

Went from 64k to 18k in one year...

I'm speaking with experience...

Was I wrong, yep, technically, I was wrong... Could the reporting person handled it different, was it worth ruining my life?

I think most folks share "off color" remarks/jokes with friends, well I guess he wasn't really a friend...

It was my fault, and my family suffered, it won't happen again...

I'm a little confused because off-color remarks have always been a risk in the workplace, but I'm not quite sure if we're talking about an incident where women (specific women or women in general) were on the receiving end of these remarks. I am referring specifically about the latter. I realize this must be a fairly personal thing for you to talk about so I don't want you to feel like you have to share, but I would like to point out that I am speaking about a very specific type of harassment that occurs in the workplace: sexual harassment (which does not only encompass sexual acts performed against one's will, but also sexually derogatory comments made towards someone).

Jestor wrote: Oh no, I didn't miss your point...

I hope you caught mine?

Yes, but it's a false equivalence and that's why I felt like you missed my point. Of course everyone experiences tunnel vision, but I am not talking about everyone, I am talking about men and a trend of a certain kind of tunnel vision which has negative impact on women and the discussion of justice and equality for women.

Jedi Believe

In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of [..] circumstances of birth such as gender

Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

I'm exceptionally dubious of the original article, tabloid journalism at its brilliant worst, broadsheet or not. "But I was just complimenting her outfit!" says the guy who spent 10 minutes objectifying a woman. "But I was just holding the door!" says the guy who got creepily close to a woman every day for a month and made her feel like she couldn't go to work. Who knows, but allegations work both ways.

HR departments also operate within our litigious society and whilst they are undoubtedly wrong sometimes (all human structures are), they don't spend all week sacking people for holding a door once. Most have involved verbal and written warning processes in place to cover themselves in the event someone sues for wrongful dismissal. And if not, rather than bitching about it in the media, why aren't these "poor men" going to court themselves? Happy to loudly complain, but not happy to pursue the legal channels designed to help people in that situation... seems legit.

I would find it inappropriate and uncomfortable for a colleague to expend a lot of effort discussing another colleague's appearance. It's unprofessional. Likewise I would find it inappropriate for someone's Olde Timey manners to be employed in the workplace, because it's 2015, not 1815. So some people find it charming, that's nice. Some people find fart jokes and racial epithets charming. Many people don't, and if you don't know for sure, don't make people uncomfortable - or accept the consequences when you do. Noone is under obligation to run their complaint past you, and at work you don't have the right to "do whatever you feel like", your contract of employment makes that clear. You're expected to act professionally, and what that means has (thankfully) advanced somewhat over the last few generations. It includes assisting or mentoring colleagues where appropriate irrespective of their gender. They're not a male colleague or female colleague. They're a colleague. Don't understand that? Maybe you have some reading to do...

Feminism is a belief that women deserve the same rights and freedoms as men. It's really very depressing to see it misinterpreted here, by people who claim to stand for equality and compassion. "But what of these poor marginalised men?" well perhaps they should realise they don't live in the world of 100 years ago anymore, and that society has moved on, and that if they really think about it for five seconds their "marginalisation", meaning inability to perform social niceties, is perhaps somewhat less important than the ability for women to vote, get decent jobs and find representation when they're treated like objects?

This is the bed Third Wave feminism has made. Now we all have to lie in it: wide-awake, hearts racing, eyes wide open, waiting for the lawyers to come hammering at our doors.

lol, seriously.

most of the people i work with are women...i hold the doors open, grab things that are too high up for them to reach, etc...never once heard a complaint, they all seem rather grateful...

now from experience it seems to me that looks play a part...because i have noticed that with some women if a man they consider "unattractive" tries to help or act gentlemanly they perceive his actions as sexist or pervy....yet when someone they consider attractive does the same things they perceive his actions in a positive manner....

tzb wrote: Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

Dude, that's not the definition of feminist. That's the definition of gender egalitarianism.

Feminist: noun - a person who supports feminism.

Feminism: noun - the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Being an a-hole to everyone is not a right. Lying is not a right. I think men don't help lying a-holes because they're lying a-holes. Sometimes a cigar is really just a cigar.