Well done, feminism. Now men are afraid to help women at work

Jamie Stick wrote:

ren wrote:

Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist

Actually what the doctrine says is that jedi are opposed to gender discrimination, so by definition a jedi can't possibly be a feminist, since the very name of this ideology in inherently sexist. (it's literally named after one sex).

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Please go read a book on feminism by a feminist before spewing this ignorance.

ren wrote:

Patriarchy is bad for everyone

No, patriarchy is good for men. That's what patriarchy means. If something is not good for men, it is not patriarchal.

"Good for men" in a very limited sense. I'm pretty sure a lot of men are tired of being perceived as brainless brutes, yet that was stereotype created by patriarchal narratives inadvertently when they tried to reinforce the (false) idea that men must be strong at all times. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure being emotionally stunted isn't something objectively "good" for men, yet many men still suffer from stunted emotional lives because of patriarchal narratives that emotions are effeminate and therefore weak.

Well since we're told not one feminist represents all feminists and therefore neither do their books, I looked at it in a dictionary. "advocacy of women's rights" turned up. "from latin femina (woman)" it says. It doesn't take genius to figure out this is literal sexism.

Patriarchy returns "a ​society ​controlled by men in which they use ​their ​power to ​their own ​advantage". No advantage, no patriarchy; no "patriarchal narrative" can disadvantage men, it is in fact by definition the only narrative that cannot disadvantage men.

I am also curious as to what is this mystical power men supposedly possess. Because the last time, like every single time in my life i've checked, female voters outnumbered males, and benefited from powerful lobbying and pressure groups.

Please let me know what is this power, which as a man i wield, that is greater than a majority of voters and powerful lobby put together. There are things I'd like to do with it.

Jamie Stick wrote:
My problem is that you can call women bitches and I have yet to see anyone get up in arms about it, but if I even say the word feminism you act like I've said the most vile word ever and people rush to your defense.

Sigh. Where to even start in this thread.

The movement of feminism has come quite a long way in the attempt to balance unfair societal and legal concerns for women, but it does still have a long way to go.

And I agree that there are facets of "modern feminism" that have taken actions that have left men feeling alienated. I don't think that can be denied by anyone.

To any man who feels attacked by the feminist...would you like being told to just man up? That you're oversensitive or just imagining these issues?

I bet not.

But the reality, as Jamies has shown above in just one small example, is that the stereotypes and the inequality is still present. I don't think its fair or reasonable that men are demonized for holding doors or telling dirty jokes, and in some circumstances I think that we all need to chill out! but I also don't think its fair that the average woman still lives in frustration by the fact that she is IS treated as an inferior both in and out of the workplace, subject to abuse, harassment and fear on a regular basis.

The problem with trying to change the beliefs of a society by changing legislation is that the sweep is so broad that it gets everyone, not just those responsible. And there are people within the feminism movement that are shifting tactics and looking for different ways to approach the issues that still exist. But when you're only focused on the negative aspects you've chosen to see, you're unlikely to even notice the positive ones.

Not to mention that we have the issue of perception. One persons bitch is another persons hero.

I find that Jack-asses fit into every sect. I don't associate with Jack-asses, and so do not really run into problems with feminists, as feminists, and feminism aren't the problem, Jack-asses are.

I don treat women s inferior, I treat people who are inferior as inferior.

Because equality, doesn't exist. Not everyone has the intelligence, and common sense to be a part of a group, or even a functioning member of society.

Men and women are different, and I think we should celebrate those differences, and certainly, there are people who abuse those differences, or dont want them, but again, I choose who I associate with, and so avoid nonsense.

ren wrote: Well since we're told not one feminist represents all feminists and therefore neither do their books, I looked at it in a dictionary. "advocacy of women's rights" turned up. "from latin femina (woman)" it says. It doesn't take genius to figure out this is literal sexism.

What a cop-out! "I couldn't be bothered do any real work towards understanding this so here's a half-assed dictionary definition." I'm not telling you have to get a degree in Women's Studies, but you are certainly capable of more than this and to pretend that your weak attempt to bat down what I'm saying is on par is ridiculous.

I have explained this time and time again that the whole of patriarchy isn't bestowed upon one man nor did any modern man create the patriarchy, but all men benefit from it in various ways.

tzb wrote: Hate to break it to some of you, but to be Jedi is to be inherently Feminist - that is, to believe in and advocate gender equality.

Feminism is not "gender equality" in an actual sense. Feminism is, and always has been, about the rise of women to a level of equity with men. It's solely about women's issues, and as the gap between men and women closes socially, economically, politically, etc., the term is less and less useful in first world countries.

Anyone who tells you that feminism is about "gender equality" or "men's problems, too" either doesn't understand those statements, doesn't understand feminism, or is feeding you a line to get you to self-identify as a feminist. You can be pro-gender-equality and not be a feminist, and you can be a feminist and be against gender equality.

Jamie Stick wrote: What a cop-out! "I couldn't be bothered do any real work towards understanding this so here's a half-assed dictionary definition." I'm not telling you have to get a degree in Women's Studies, but you are certainly capable of more than this and to pretend that your weak attempt to bat down what I'm saying is on par is ridiculous

1. Words. Mean. Things. Definitions and facts are not, as some tumblr-users would like you to believe, white cishet forms of oppression against underpriviledged minorities.
2. Books about feminism by feminists are inherently biased in favor of feminism. Books about feminism by anti-feminists are inherently biased against feminism. Neutral authors are the best to read on this topic if you want an unbiased opinion.

Jamie Stick wrote:

ren wrote: Well since we're told not one feminist represents all feminists and therefore neither do their books, I looked at it in a dictionary. "advocacy of women's rights" turned up. "from latin femina (woman)" it says. It doesn't take genius to figure out this is literal sexism.

What a cop-out! "I couldn't be bothered do any real work towards understanding this so here's a half-assed dictionary definition." I'm not telling you have to get a degree in Women's Studies, but you are certainly capable of more than this and to pretend that your weak attempt to bat down what I'm saying is on par is ridiculous.

I have explained this time and time again that the whole of patriarchy isn't bestowed upon one man nor did any modern man create the patriarchy, but all men benefit from it in various ways.

Understanding what? That the word "feminism" is sexist? No it did not require a lot of work to figure that one out.

I am well aware that all men benefit from the patriarchy. That's what patriarchy means. A social order that benefits all men. I just wonder where it is, so that I may benefit from it also. So, if you know, please tell me.

Brenna wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:
My problem is that you can call women bitches and I have yet to see anyone get up in arms about it, but if I even say the word feminism you act like I've said the most vile word ever and people rush to your defense.

Sigh. Where to even start in this thread.

The movement of feminism has come quite a long way in the attempt to balance unfair societal and legal concerns for women, but it does still have a long way to go.

And I agree that there are facets of "modern feminism" that have taken actions that have left men feeling alienated. I don't think that can be denied by anyone.

To any man who feels attacked by the feminist...would you like being told to just man up? That you're oversensitive or just imagining these issues?

I bet not.

But the reality, as Jamies has shown above in just one small example, is that the stereotypes and the inequality is still present. I don't think its fair or reasonable that men are demonized for holding doors or telling dirty jokes, and in some circumstances I think that we all need to chill out! but I also don't think its fair that the average woman still lives in frustration by the fact that she is IS treated as an inferior both in and out of the workplace, subject to abuse, harassment and fear on a regular basis.

The problem with trying to change the beliefs of a society by changing legislation is that the sweep is so broad that it gets everyone, not just those responsible. And there are people within the feminism movement that are shifting tactics and looking for different ways to approach the issues that still exist. But when you're only focused on the negative aspects you've chosen to see, you're unlikely to even notice the positive ones.

Not to mention that we have the issue of perception. One persons bitch is another persons hero.

i dont know anyone curmudgeony enough that they consider ALL WOMEN to be bitches but do not ALSO consider all men to be assholes

and if a woman is being bitchy and if i am going to resort to name calling at all then why not call her a bitch?
the same if a dude is being an asshole

sometimes i might even call a bitchy dude a bitch
and SOMETIMES i may even call a woman an asshole - i suspect that this is true for many

that some people still think black jokes are OK does not mean that "white people" need to hear some endless tirade about how we are evil racist devils

or that "men can call women bitches and its ok but i cant say "feminism" without you freaking out"

i dont think too many here are freaking about the word feminism as much as about the underlying hostility that is using "feminism" as its mask (and i refer to elements of the feminist movement in general and not simply to any particular individual)

and that the real issue here is the lack of respect that leads to name calling in general, which women are no less guilty of than men, and "feminists" are no less guilty of than "masculists"

other than this i do agree with your post and the points you raise

On a different but related topic. The below are definitions from http://www.thefreedictionary.com.

rac·ism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

sex·ism
1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
2. The belief that one gender is superior to the other, especially that men are superior to women.

ROFL!!!! The definition of sexism is especially sexist against men. Well at least on the free dictionary anyway.

Maybe the dictionary reflects reality: sexism has become sexist.