Cultural Appropriation

rugadd wrote: On that same topic, Adder, the Chinese government appointed the Abbott of the Shaolin Temple as well. Caused quite a ...stir amongst the monks.

they impose their will and culture into every aspect of chinese life...i don't know if i'd call it appropriation...more like cultural domination...or oppression...

Adder wrote: I hate to bring politics in, but perhaps the example of the Chinese government wanting to choose the next Dalai Lama, and banning anyone else, is a good example of real cultural appropriation?

or just really dirty tactics in the process of attempting to wipe a culture out

Here's a question.
I really love Tai Chi Chuan. I love the aesthetic, I love the martial arts aspect, and I love the fitness aspect. I'm not Chinese by a long shot, but I know a bit about Tai Chi Chuan and its history.
Tai Chi Chuan was, at one time, represented as what its name translates to: "Grand Ultimate Fist" or "Supreme Ultimate Fist". It was used by undefeated fighters across China. Now, it's seen by most as nothing but a simple light exercise routine. And I don't mean just in the West; in China, Tai Chi Chuan is a popular exercise routine as well. And its martial applications are only well known by a handful of people in the East and West.
But, given that arts such as Judo have perfected the art of throwing, boxing has perfected the art of punching, Tae Kwon Do has perfected the art of kicking, Muay Thai has perfected the art of clinch-fighting, insofar as these things can be perfected, I don't think that the martial application, the original purpose of Tai Chi Chuan as practices culturally for hundreds of years, is really relevant anymore. And I would also argue that it does more wide-scale good as an exercise routine.

The change over from martial art to exercise routine only really started in full swing when this particular martial art was introduced to the West.

Is this change:
A. A disgusting case of cultural appropriation by Westerners which has served as a detriment for a treasured cultural practice, or
B. A good cultural change which has resulted in many people living happier lives?

It would seem to me by definitions covered in this thread that (A) would be correct. But it's also the case that ( is correct.
This leaves two real options:

1. Cultural appropriation is not inherently a bad thing and can result in great things, or
2. The outcome is irrelevant, and cultural appropriation itself is inexcusable.

Essentially, Utilitarian Consequentialism vs Deontology.
"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it become a universal law." - Kant
This would describe Deontology, the view that I believe Jamie and Steamboat to hold.
The fundamental difference between our points of view is that I identify as an Act Consequentialist. But a hard stance against cultural appropriation is inherently unacceptable in Consequentialism due to situations such as the one I've outlined here. So I must conclude, given these options, that the two of you follow some form of Deontological ethics.
Both Consequentialism and Deontology have their flaws. That is a discussion for another place. I just thought I would point out that what you consider morally wrong or ethically inexcusable is not objectively morally wrong or ethically inexcusable, and that other serious and well-supported approaches to ethics exist.

With that being said, unless you can convince me to follow a Deontological point of view, I don't believe either of us will be able to convince the other of our points and so my continued presence in this discussion is, well, pointless. I'm out of this thread.

steamboat28 wrote:

rugadd wrote: It is okay if you read up on it and you really, really mean it?

Lemme give you a few examples.

1. Friend of mine, white as hell, dabbles in Native American religion and crafts.
2. A rapper I really like (who looks like Casper the Gangly Ghost in all her vacation photos) was married in a Shinto ceremony.
3. Ol' Bubba down the street blares rap music from his pickup truck.

Now, on the surface, all of those seem like what I'm talking about in this thread. I mean, they're all white people dealing with things outside their birth cultures, and obviously that's wrong, right? I mean, that's what I've been screaming about this whole thread, after all.

...Except only one of those is actual appropriation. It's really hard to tell until you see the intent, but I hope that my explanation of these four situations will show the line between appropriation and appreciation.

See, my buddy up there that likes Native crafts? He's Chickasaw enough that he'd qualify for tribal membership if his ancestors had kept better paperwork. I've seen his family tree, and the photos of it; they alternated native and white brides for about a century solid. This guy has done nothing the past seven years but research his tribe's history and heritage, reach out to others who could point him in the right direction, and run his practices by individuals and groups in the online communities that have formed to support these cultures in the digital age (since he can't make a trip out to see any of them.) They have all, every one of them, praised him for his efforts and his respect of their culture. While he is a part of it, he doesn't look it, so many still believe he's just a white man--and even if he was, he's a white man that's impressed them with his sincerity and respect. He doesn't allow photographs of his ceremonial gear or garments, both out of tradition and fear they may be replicated. He's dedicated his life to the pursuit of rightness and sought never to misappropriate or misinform anyone about his intentions or actions, or the beliefs of the Chickasaw people. He's learning the language and the lore bits and pieces at a time, and he's offered to help in any way he can to "purchase" the right for more information. He's not an appropriator.

My Canadian rapper friend isn't a "gangsta" rapper. She's a nerdcore rapper who openly acknowledges the great influence that hip hop and rap have had on her for a very long time (even before her stint as a DJ), and never attempts to exploit the cultures that influenced her. In effect, she's more "real" than many modern studio rappers, in that she discusses herself, her life, her struggles, and her ridiculously disproportionate-to-her-body-size ego. When she was married, she married in secret in Japan at a shrine, one she requested through the Shinto shrine she attends closer to home. She's a bit of a "spiritual clusterf**k", she'll admit, but Shinto genuinely resonates with her spirit, and she takes it very seriously. This causes a great respect for the traditions of Shinto, but also to her discussing it very seldom, and only to a handful of people. She has no desire to give people the wrong idea or information, and she doesn't want to even accidentally exploit her ties to this religion in any way, because it's a very personal endeavor to her. She is not an appropriator.

Bubba, on the other hand, is a racist hillbilly redneck sum'b*tch who hates black people but loves stealing their music from the Internet to play in his pick-up truck with it's racist bumpers stickers. I've heard him make the kinds of jokes that not even I will laugh at, and continually discuss how "worthless" an entire race of human beings are, but, gosh-darn it, he just loves him some rap music. Eminem is his favorite, because he made it okay for white people to listen to "****** music." This bastard is definitely an appropriator. And a sh** human being.

Does that help illustrate the kind of thing I'm talking about?

This post was really helpful. I appreciate it a lot.

I'd like to ask how we KNOW someone is appropriating or not. These three friends, you know them pretty well right? What of others? Should the assumption be made on one side or the other?

Actually, the sport-ification of Martial Arts is a perfect example of cultural appropriation.

Rosalyn J wrote: This post was really helpful. I appreciate it a lot.

I'd like to ask how we KNOW someone is appropriating or not. These three friends, you know them pretty well right? What of others? Should the assumption be made on one side or the other?

The original post in this thread wasn't intended to call others out on their cultural appropriation. It was rather to encourage people to examine their beliefs and the reasons for their beliefs, to ensure they're not responsible for continuing said appropriation.

steamboat28 wrote: Actually, the sport-ification of Martial Arts is a perfect example of cultural appropriation.

i've never used martial arts for sport...i learned for self defense, then through martial arts i learned zen buddhism...the physical,mental,and spiritual lessons from martial arts form part of who i am....on the rare occasion i teach i don't do it for profit (not a fan of martial arts being a business)

rugadd wrote: It is okay if you read up on it and you really, really mean it?

for peole like you its ok to do whatever you want - you dont even realize how cool you are
just keep being you and trust that its good

Brenna wrote: And I wonder at the dismissing of the cultural experiences and realities of other posters in the thread as "self-congratulatory posting, thanks-begging, and intellectual masturbation" simply because of the colour of their skin.

a guardian is a righteous protector of human dignity and basic freedom

a guard is someone who locks you in a cage and demands obedience and conformity

also why is it that you come in here and say in a few lines what i have spent PAGES to get across without any effect?

RyuJin wrote:

rugadd wrote: On that same topic, Adder, the Chinese government appointed the Abbott of the Shaolin Temple as well. Caused quite a ...stir amongst the monks.

they impose their will and culture into every aspect of chinese life...i don't know if i'd call it appropriation...more like cultural domination...or oppression...

there are two basic ways of looking at the world

"how can i adapt to the world in a way which makes me happy?"

"how can get the world to adapt to what will make me happy?"

thats what this thread is about i think