Cultural Appropriation

TheDude wrote: I should also add that I have no issue with "cultural appropriation" in the same way that you do. I think that Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly are both great rock and roll musicians, and it truly does not matter in any way whether the person making the music is white, black, or any other race; and furthermore, that cultural barriers are a negative aspect of our daily lives which we should deny. We are not groups of Americans, Europeans, Africans, Asians, we are not white, black, brown, yellow, purple, blue, or anything else. We are human beings. There is only ONE race, as far as I am concerned, and that is the human race. So what if I go into a tattoo parlor and ask for some Japanese kanji to be tattooed onto my arm? And who cares that the Japanese stole the kanji from the Chinese long ago? I don't think it diminishes the people; I don't think it diminishes the language; and I see nothing wrong with a kanji tattoo or tribal tattoo or anything else, whether it is gotten by someone native to Japan or someone native to the United States, or someone native to Ireland. We are all humans. Cultural barriers are harmful to us as a species. That is my position.

That's fine in theory, but in practice it's a huge problem. Elvis and Eminem have made ridiculous sums of money for exploiting originally "black" art forms. The fact that the word "twerk" didn't enter the mainstream white community's lexicon until Miley Cyrus (when it's very nearly as old as I am) should be an indication of how this sort of thing typically works. White churches took over negro spirituals and taught them to white congregations, after indirectly creating those songs by forcing slaves to change their language and religion. America loves "mexican food", but largely refuses to aid Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal).

And then there's this crap:

which appears to be fashionable over a century (give or take 75-125 years) since we've run native peoples from their lands, forced them into tiny, unkempt reservations, homogenized 500+ tribes into a single Hollywood image, and refused to provide the aid we said we would, leading to rampant poverty and alcoholism, all while white people get drunk and high and steal their cultural accourtrements.

Cultural appropriation is to peoples' emotions and cultures what ivory is to an elephant's life. We buy, sell, encourage, and fetishize the "product" while we leave the creatures responsible for its creation to die.

Further Reading

• " But Why Can't I Wear A Hipster Headdress? " by Adrienne K. at Native Appropriations
• " 5 Things White People Need To Learn About Cultural Appropriation " at The Daily Dot
• " The Cultural Crimes of Iggy Azalea " over at The Daily Beast
• " Neo-shamanism as Cultural Appropriation " by Rebecca Lockyer on Trance, Shamanism, Body, and Soul

im way too white to hate white people lol

the problem is polio in blankets and forced indoctrination of the young

forced migration

lies and false promises - violence against other human beings - genuine assaults on culture are instances of direct suppression of human dignity - not on parading around in a headress at a party a hundres years and a hundred million dreams away

for all i know that woman is sacagawea's great great great... something or other

depending on your creation myth of choice (most of the ones i know of hold this view actually) we're all relatives anyway, you just have to trace the line far enough

to be honest, the idea that you are presenting is of the exact same mood of the problem youre addressing

its dismissive and deragatory of peoples personal experience

in america especially, we are what i sometimes refer to as a cultureless culture (not technically true but it is a generalization with some truth to it)

the result is that we appropriate because we have internal needs which are not being met by the established mood of our era

we appropriate also because like all successful species there is an intense and innate curiosity to us (here i mean HUMANS, not specifically AMERICANS)

we cant help but be fascinated with the bubbles inside of a marble, much less the strange imaginings of some exotic and mysterious people

especially when those visions stir something essential to the human experience

something native to the species more than merely the culture

this is natural

from the perspective of overall human potential it seems to me that appropriation is the only real method of development

doesnt it make sense that what is experientially true for one person has the potential to be experientially true for others?

what if instead of drawing lines and building walls around ourselves and saying "you stay in your boundaries and i stay in mine and we can talk from a distance" we say "boundaries, what? comehere and give me a hug" lol

hell man i could say you "appropriated" the internet lol

have you sent a thank you letter to al gore? i bet you dont even know how al gore's children are doing in their soccer teams and calculus exams

you can argue that its different, sure

but where our views diverge is that i make a distinction between the two ideas that you are associating

the mistreatment of others is not that we are inspired by their awesomeness

but that we dismiss and disregard it to suit our convenience or our temper

they are not mutually implicit -appropriation and disregard

actually appropriation seems a pretty sophisticated method of garnering support if you want to be really influencial about it

i mean youre not going to get white women to stop twerking and going to see usher
but you might use these activities to open the dialogue about the state of racial and economic equality (or lack thereof)

the same with starbuck shamans - theyre going to do what theyre going to do

if you have a problem with the way things are playing out, rather than addressing that problem by being offended at it and telling everyone how big of a problem it is, maybe utilize it to its best potential outcome

i once saw a documentary where someone was arguing that the best way to protect elephants from being murdered to extinction was to legalize and regulate the ivory industry

he was saying that if you built a dozen or so elephant farms and had a systematic way of harvesting ivory that could be regulated and would make the poaching less lucrative

the result would be more wild elephants and less rich poachers

now, my belife is that it is not apporopriate to kill things simply so that you can wear them as jewelery

we are in agreement at the foulness of that

my perspective is that my experiences in dreamwork and energy work and trance and in the messages that i recieve from the spirit are not matters of me killing a elephant and stealing his tusks, but of seeing how awesome his tusks are and doing my best to grow my own

OB1Shinobi wrote: for all i know that woman is sacagawea's great great great... something or other

Even if she was Sacagawea herself, she never would have worn a feathered headdress.

OB1Shinobi wrote: my perspective is that my experiences in dreamwork and energy work and trance and in the messages that i recieve from the spirit are not matters of me killing a elephant and stealing his tusks, but of seeing how awesome his tusks are and doing my best to grow my own

I think what Steamboat is trying to mean is that it's not so much a problem in growing your own tusks with respects to what they are, what they mean, and their intentions, but rather the problem comes in when you stick them on your forehead just because you think it's cool.

steamboat28 wrote: The fact that the word "twerk" didn't enter the mainstream white community's lexicon until Miley Cyrus (when it's very nearly as old as I am) should be an indication of how this sort of thing typically works.

I dunno, it seemed twirking was becoming 'popular' before she did it, and she was just someone with her finger on the pulse who happened to have a bigger audience - and took advantage of it. Like the Kardashian with the sex tape, she took something already done and did it in a way to get more publicity because she knew people had already been exposed to it just enough for it to be able to be used to 'bust' it out to the mainstream. The broader concept is called multiculturalism here, and its supported as a positive thing. Cheap will always be cheap, and will never compete with authentic. I think blending of cultures is inevitable with mixing of cultures.

the "five things white people should know" article was worth reading

i want to comment on sacagawea here

i notice that shes actually wearing two headdresses (and POSSIBLY three)

i cant help but think that to be resentful of her for the symbols she associates with her personal identity

without understanding what they actually mean to her - how she understands them and what role they play in her life, in the development of her identity, is the same exact sort of dismissal of personal dignity which youre speaking against

you might say "she doesnt have the right to steal my cultures symbols to develop her own identity"

and im not going to tell you that you are wrong

what i am going to say is that the headdress symbol was meaningful enough to her personally to have it tatooed on her body

is it possible that even though she wears it completely out of alignment with its original use, that she still wears it with a more meaningful spirit than simply that it is "kewel" or hip?

i agree that people - most especially jedi - must be aware to the greatest possible degree
of the implications of thier actions and decisions

i definitely agree that running around like an idiot grabbing all the bananas and smacking them against a wall because its fun to be an idiot and smack things against walls is not a strong or intelligent way to live

but "thoughtful" is more a matter of breaking the boundaries of our own interpretations than breaking the boundaries of other peoples

i dont defend lack of respect

i support enriching my own experience and i support the general enrichment of the experience of the species

what i would say is that you have the right to see the world through whatever eyes you want

if you want to see peole as stupid and disrespectful and shallow then that is your business

when i see someone that is shallow my first reaction is contempt

then smug superiority

at some point it becomes pity

finally, i laugh, because i know that in thw final analysis i cant help but ackowledge that im not really any better lol

so i laugh

i laugh and i offer water

if she is shallow enough to build elements of her identity around symbols which she does not understand then i feel sorry for her too

my grandmother used to say that if you look down your nose at enough people enough times your eyes will get stuck and youll never see straight again

I end up in debates about cultural appropriation quite a bit because of Jediism actually. I have complicated thoughts on cultural appropriation. I'm adamantly against it, but I'm also kind of irritated with the way some people try to oversimplify the issue of cultural appropriation one way or another (in favor of appropriation or against it). People get upset when I tell them about Jediism and assume that I practice a white-washed trite version of Taoism or Buddhism, that is until I tell them that I came to Jediism because of environmentalism and not because of any interest in Tao or Buddhist ideas.

The fact of the matter is that white people in America can wear bindis, henna, saris, practice whatever religion they want and nobody gives them a hard time about it. When brown people do it they end being labelled terrorists, treated like novelty items, spoken to as if they might not also be Americans, or worse. Cultural appropriation is in part responsible for the existence of Hinduism (when the British colonized India they lumped all the different groups together and called Hinduism which literally means beliefs of the Hindi, only one people group in India). Cultural appropriation is in part responsible for why white people love to wear headdresses and are happy to see other white people play Native Americans on television and movies yet for many actual Native Americans alcoholism and poverty are all they get for white people's "love of Native American culture". If white people really loved Native American culture they'd pressure the US government to honor its treaties.

That doesn't mean you, all you white people reading this, can't study Buddhism or Taoism, but you should go at it with sincerity (see this article ) and treat it with the same respect Christians treat their Bibles and church meetings.

steamboat28 wrote: That's fine in theory, but in practice it's a huge problem. Elvis and Eminem have made ridiculous sums of money for exploiting originally "black" art forms.

Erm, so what? They're artists. They made art. It doesn't matter where the art form originated, they still made art by doing what they did well. Should I be putting down any black man who masters playing Beethoven's violin concertos because Beethoven was European and that's cultural appropriation? No, that's ridiculous. And it's not because he's black and Beethoven's not, it's because that's art and whoever is a great artist and can perform musically well deserves whatever they can get for it.

The fact that the word "twerk" didn't enter the mainstream white community's lexicon until Miley Cyrus (when it's very nearly as old as I am) should be an indication of how this sort of thing typically works.

I don't think this is the case at all, but even if it is, Miley Cyrus is/was (unfortunately, mind you) a MASSIVE pop star and icon. It's only reasonable that whatever she does will result in more exposure. To be fair, most of the population isn't aware that there's such a thing as the bass ukulele, and it would only enter the mainstream ANYTHING'S community lexicon if someone famous picked it up.

White churches took over negro spirituals and taught them to white congregations,

Because the songs and practices were good and exciting. It isn't in any way to oppress anyone.

after indirectly creating those songs by forcing slaves to change their language and religion.

A practice which is indefensible, but which has nothing at all to do with "cultural appropriation" as we are currently discussing it.

America loves "mexican food", but largely refuses to aid Mexican immigrants (legal or illegal).

Because Mexican food tastes good. That's literally it. I'm sure there were people in the '30's who liked German food and drink but didn't care much for the Nazi party. And I don't think you're referring to the positions of the American people, who from my experience are perfectly fine with interacting with Mexicans, giving them jobs (especially if illegal), helping communities to be set up in cities, etc. I think you're referring to the policies of the American government, and when has it ever been the case that the government represents what the people want? But even then, there have been movements within the government to aid these people when possible.

which appears to be fashionable over a century (give or take 75-125 years) since we've run native peoples from their lands, forced them into tiny, unkempt reservations, homogenized 500+ tribes into a single Hollywood image, and refused to provide the aid we said we would, leading to rampant poverty and alcoholism, all while white people get drunk and high and steal their cultural accourtrements.

Yeah, it's fashionable, because it looks nice. You're overcomplicating things way too much. Yeah, what the Europeans did to the Native Americans was awful, but it has nothing to do with any Europeans or Native Americans today. We aren't paying for the sins of our fathers. It's unfortunate that the reservations exist and are so subpar, but acting like their situation is the fault of ANYONE alive today has got to be some kind of fallacy. Guilt by association?
I should also add that many Native Americans have moved out of the reservations and lived very successful lives. And some in the reservations, too, live very successful lives. Heck, some of them (such as the Menominee tribe here in Wisconsin) decided to get more land of their own and not to rely on the reservations at all. Your simplification of cultural movements and of people to not have a will of their own but be forced into the will of their cultural group bothers me.

Cultural appropriation is to peoples' emotions and cultures what ivory is to an elephant's life. We buy, sell, encourage, and fetishize the "product" while we leave the creatures responsible for its creation to die.

I don't think that this is the case at all. It is a fact that cultures change over time, and this is clear. And I don't see how more people being aware of a specific phenomenon and celebrating it, in general, harms anyone at all. Let's say there were a religious ceremony held sacred by a certain religion and the rest of the world found it fashionable. And those people were to start using that thing as a fashion symbol. Okay, they might be taking something out of context and just playing around with it for laughs or fun or whatever. But it's not stopping that original group from using their practice or symbol however they want to. In the long run, it might give the group more exposure, which leads to the group growing.

In all of your posts on cultural appropriation, I've seen the following groups mentioned as appropriators:
1. White People (as if all white people share the same culture, a gross oversimplification)
2. Americans (as if all Americans share the same culture, a gross oversimplification)
It leads me to believe you're singling out these groups and discriminating against them based on race and nationality. Now, I've said before that I don't believe that race and nationality really exist; that the world would be better without race and nationality. But to discriminate against a race, especially in a negative fashion, is racism.

There are plenty of other races and cultures you can pick which have taken from different cultures. Japan and China took jazz and American fashion and completely changed their own countries in terms of dress, music, art, architecture, and so on once they started talks with the West. They were NOT forced to do so under any definition of the term "forced", anyone who has read anything about the history of Asia between 1700 and today can tell you that. By singling out only whites and Americans, and I don't think I would be inaccurate in saying that this whole time you've been thinking mainly about white Americans, you're participating in a form of racism. Do not confuse this with an ad hominem attack; if cultural appropriation exists, your focus on whites and Americans has nothing to do with that whatsoever. But I, for one, will not tolerate an attack on any group of people doing no harm, whether that be physical or an attack on the character of that group of people. It would be fine to single out ISIS or some other group actively doing harm, but attacking a group for harm done by the group from a time before any of the people currently in the group were alive? That's unacceptable.

I also wear a keffiyeh as a scarf, since I think it looks nice, and I don't think I'm doing any harm to anyone by doing so. I'm not Arab, not even a little bit.

TheDude wrote: But I, for one, will not tolerate an attack on any group of people doing no harm, whether that be physical or an attack on the character of that group of people.

So, the fact that white people capitalized on negro spirituals while still denying their creators access to basic human rights is considered "doing no harm"? The fact that the modern hipster revival of the gift-shop headdress contributes to American ignorance on Native cultures, Native history, and current Native lifestyles is "doing no harm"? The fact that neopaganism and neoshamanism are so entirely guilty of cultural appropriation that they are the world's leaders in the obfuscation and destruction of the cultures they're supposedly based on is "doing no harm"?

Did you actually read my post or any of the accompanying links? Or are you just angry that I pointed a finger you didn't like the look of?

steamboat28 wrote: Or are you just angry that I pointed a finger you didn't like the look of?

It wouldn't be the first time.

Any time you criticize a group because of a systemic problem, everyone who is in that group takes it as a personal attack on their individual character rather than realizing what the criticism is. This happened when talking about transphobia, classism, and it's happening again when we touch on racism in the form of cultural appropriation. This Temple has a "I don't understand the difference between a generalization and a criticism of the socio-ethnic/socio-political group that has inherited the problems of its ancestors"-problem.

The trouble is, that reluctance to see the culpability of the group does not actually give you (general you, not a specific person) the power to abscond responsibility for the problem at hand. In this case, white people have a responsibility to learn about other cultures and treat those cultures and items belonging to those cultures with the same dignity and respect as they would their own. There's just one problem with that. Many white people aren't aware that they have a culture. We (white poeple) aren't aware we have a culture because we're so deeply immersed in it and everywhere we go we accustomed to things our way. It's difficult for white people to appreciate their own culture when they aren't aware that it exists. It's even more difficult to appreciate it when you come to understand that white supremacy, a doctrine of hate, is inextricably linked with white culture. This means that while there may be things that are delightful about white culture, it's been corrupted by a history of violence and oppression.

I say all this because I'm anticipating more and more resistance from fellow white people who will wriggle and squirm in the iron fist of having been associated with anything that makes us look bad. White people have a lot to answer for both historically and in the present day, pretending we don't doesn't make it go away and it doesn't make it better (contrary to whatever the hell Morgan Freeman says).

Who's to say the lady wearing a Native American-esk headress is not a reincarnated Chief!!!!! :side: