Cultural Appropriation

Just as an idea to consider on the side:

Why should anyone feel the need to preserve and protect any kind of culture? Why do we even feel the need to identify with any culture at all?

I don't personally see 'cultural appropriation' as an issue, only because I don't think that there is anything inherently sacred or important about any culture. If you want to wear a hat with feathers, go ahead. I don't believe in unjust discrimination of any kind, and that extends to actions and beliefs. The human race needs to learn to base itself in something a bit more concrete than 'culture'.

Fenton wrote: Why should anyone feel the need to preserve and protect any kind of culture? Why do we even feel the need to identify with any culture at all?

Whether you realize it or not you have a culture. Culture is unavoidable. Culture is a complex web of values, traditions, beliefs, and shared history. It's something that forms organically yet is also a human construct. To erase someone's culture is to erase a large piece of who they are, where they came from, and pretty much the entire foundation upon which their identity as a human being is based upon. You can't erase someone's culture without long term effects. It's easy to say let's get rid of culture if you either A) aren't aware of your own culture or B ) don't know what culture is. My guess is that you probably have a mix of both.

Jamie Stick wrote: A) aren't aware of your own culture or B ) don't know what culture is. My guess is that you probably have a mix of both.

I am well aware of the 'white' culture which surrounds me, and I would ask that you refrain from making such erroneous claims about my lack of knowledge in the future. The thing you perhaps don't understand is that I don't find any resonance with that culture. I have my own 'culture' in the unique things I do and think, and I don't expect (nor want) anyone to preserve that. If other people want to do the same things I do, I won't judge them for doing it differently or for different reasons. In the same way, I won't immediately adopt the culture around me. I'm not the same as my parents or relatives, and as a member of a minority group, I am most certainly not the same as the people who surround me.

To hold on to such identities as culture or race, to me, shows a serious lack of confidence in your own ability to stand alone.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Fenton wrote: Why should anyone feel the need to preserve and protect any kind of culture? Why do we even feel the need to identify with any culture at all?

Whether you realize it or not you have a culture. Culture is unavoidable. Culture is a complex web of values, traditions, beliefs, and shared history. It's something that forms organically yet is also a human construct. To erase someone's culture is to erase a large piece of who they are, where they came from, and pretty much the entire foundation upon which their identity as a human being is based upon. You can't erase someone's culture without long term effects. It's easy to say let's get rid of culture if you either A) aren't aware of your own culture or B ) don't know what culture is. My guess is that you probably have a mix of both.

You are so arrogant and short sighted.
You talk down to someone who has expressed an idea beyond the scope of your vision.
And you think that singing a song or wearing a hat can erase a culture. You live in mumbo jumbo land.

Hello posters, please stick to the points of contention, not the person who might be expressing them. Personal attacks should be avoided as much as possible please, thanks!

TotJO is a place for spiritual enlightenment, self discovery and discussion of many varied and wide ranging topics. Here at TotJO we debate arguments not personalities and ideas instead of people. ~ TERMS OF USE AND RULES

If having trouble, pretend the other person is just debating a point they may not even agree with, for the purposes of exploration and understanding different viewpoints.

HarageiLucid wrote: And you think that singing a song or wearing a hat can erase a culture. You live in mumbo jumbo land.

Touched a nerve, I see. It's funny that you use the phrase, "mumbo jumbo" as that originates in West African tribes and was originally a term that described a character young men would portray in ritual dances. Unfortunately, that piece of African identity was almost completely eradicated and all that's left is a perverted derivative and what is recorded in the journals of explorers and slave traders.

You see, the problem is that we are both ideologically gridlocked. You're convinced you're right. I'm convinced I'm right. Neither one of us will actually change our minds unless we are willing let ourselves be open to the possibility. If we do not open ourselves to the possibility, we will only walk away from this debate falsely reaffirmed in our belief that each of our respective beliefs was right. The only way I've survived this long at the Temple is by allowing myself to be wrong.

And on another note, if you must resort to attacking the person making the post you disagree with, it is quite unlikely you have anything worthwhile to contribute to the discussion. The tactic of ad hominem is an indicator that the opponent no longer has valid arguments to make and is therefore left with no other strategy than to attack the person making the arguments that stand. However, it is possible for someone to be so passionate about their position that they unintentionally make a personal attack. I am all too familiar with this unintentional personal attack and will assume that is what has happened here. Hopefully, you will either come back when you have valid arguments to make or you will not speak up again in this thread.

Can I ask a question?

Isn't it kind of foolish to delineate people as "white people", "black people" etc? When we say "White people" are we really dealing with the issue? I think cultural misappropriation can happen to any race by any race. I don't think the genocide of cultures or the mistreatment of particular races was something that "white people" agreed upon when it was done. I refuse to believe that an entire group of people who happened to have a similar genetic makeup, but may have very well been members of separate cultures, came together to systematically destroy a people. Instead I believe that a minority of people with enough power (read money, political influence) created a space in which they could behave in such a manner. This manner then became the norm benefiting only a few of that particular group. The others, I believe were still scrapping the bottom of the barrel to get by.

Ryujin makes an excellent point. Its clear from his post that this so called "white privilege' isn't benefiting him. I consider myself lucky as a member of the African American community to have gotten as far as I have and I am certainly going to work to repay all that I have been given, but I digress. The fact of the matter is that though white privilege is made out to be some sort of magic wand, it may not be and it may not be applied to all individuals in the white community equally.

I don't believe that cultural appropriation is right. However, I doubt the lady in the picture was intentionally trying to offend anyone. We deal with this not by blasting it on all sorts of social media, but person by person. If someone was offended by the headdress they should have told her "I am offended by the headdress you are wearing because it represents (inset history lesson here). The result is that she comes away with more knowledge than she entered with. Now if she scoffs at the education, we can really do nothing at that point except move on. We have done our part. We go to the next person who we believe is culturally appropriating and we say the same thing. Maybe that persons mind and thereby actions change. Just like that we have one less person culturally appropriating. The psyche of the world isn't changed en masse (even if we use mass media) but person by person.

Fenton wrote: The thing you perhaps don't understand is that I don't find any resonance with that culture. I have my own 'culture' in the unique things I do and think, and I don't expect (nor want) anyone to preserve that.

But that's exactly what culture isn't, don't you see? Your personal preferences are irrelevant to defining culture. You may have preferences for things outside of your own culture, but that doesn't mean you've transcended your culture.

Fenton wrote: To hold on to such identities as culture or race, to me, shows a serious lack of confidence in your own ability to stand alone.

White people are fiercely individualistic; it's a blessing and a curse. In my talks with other people about racial reconciliation I explained how much of white dominant media has taught me to fear not being able to stand on my two feet. I've spent so much of my life being afraid of losing my sense of self to a collective or group identity that whenever I encounter cultural values which run counter to individualism, it causes a knee jerk reaction. It's probably why ideas like communism and socialism terrify so many white dominant societies. The idea of the collective, of the group identity being more important to than the individual is foreign to us. Therefore it is my estimation that it would take greater courage for a white person to become a part of a group identity in which their own individual self is not given recognition equally with the group's identity. To clarify, I am not simply referring to a team or club. Teams and clubs still allow individualism to flourish and for the most part be on par with the group identity. This is why an individual can state, "I am an X" or "I am a Y". We associate, affiliate, but are not X or Y in the collective sense.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Fenton wrote: The thing you perhaps don't understand is that I don't find any resonance with that culture. I have my own 'culture' in the unique things I do and think, and I don't expect (nor want) anyone to preserve that.

But that's exactly what culture isn't, don't you see? Your personal preferences are irrelevant to defining culture. You may have preferences for things outside of your own culture, but that doesn't mean you've transcended your culture.

Fenton wrote: To hold on to such identities as culture or race, to me, shows a serious lack of confidence in your own ability to stand alone.

White people are fiercely individualistic; it's a blessing and a curse. In my talks with other people about racial reconciliation I explained how much of white dominant media has taught me to fear not being able to stand on my two feet. I've spent so much of my life being afraid of losing my sense of self to a collective or group identity that whenever I encounter cultural values which run counter to individualism, it causes a knee jerk reaction. It's probably why ideas like communism and socialism terrify so many white dominant societies. The idea of the collective, of the group identity being more important to than the individual is foreign to us. Therefore it is my estimation that it would take greater courage for a white person to become a part of a group identity in which their own individual self is not given recognition equally with the group's identity. To clarify, I am not simply referring to a team or club. Teams and clubs still allow individualism to flourish and for the most part be on par with the group identity. This is why an individual can state, "I am an X" or "I am a Y". We associate, affiliate, but are not X or Y in the collective sense.

its odd that you would say something like "your personal preferences are irrelevant..."

i cant find a post in the last month where you werent demanding the rest of the world conform to your personal preferences

then you talk about being individualistic and standing on ones own feet

individuals who stand on their own feet are people who have outgrown the idea that the rest of the world must conform to their preferences

youre terrified of standing on your own two feet

which is probably why ideas like communism and socialism are so appealing to you

you want to tell people what words theyre allowed to use

what their definition - their PERSONAL DEFINITION - of their personal culture is "allowed" to be

who are you to tell fenton or anybody else what their culture is allowed to be?

what clothes theyre allowed to where?
(or not allowed to where, which is the same thing)

yes i belive you've explained a lot of things to a lot of people

but your explanations are always the same - demanding that the world obey you

what have you actually DONE for the black community?

besides waving your "damn the man" sign?

certainly making demands and throwing blame at white people is not reconciliation

nor is forcing the world to your whims

matter of fact, i think thats usually called slavery or oppression or some other such evil notion thats bad when everyone else does it

your idea of reconciliation is for everyone that you feel targeted by to admit they are wrong and do what you want

thats not reconciliation jamie - its fantasy

RyuJin wrote: i can't wait for the day when there is only 1 culture....the world culture...

i don't understand why people are so eager to keep themselves separate...if we were meant to be separate we wouldn't be able to reproduce inter-racially.....

i'm a human, my culture is human...i know my family history, it's fascinating to know it...but it doesn't define who i am...only where i came from

I just want to point out that I have literally never, in the entire history of my life, heard or read of anyone non-white holding this opinion. Ever.
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OB1Shinobi wrote: i dont care what you think you know about the benefits of anything

in america today you can succeed pretty much regardless of your ethnicity gender or sexual orientation

your success is a matter of your choices

say whatever you want about the relative ease of success, it doesnt change the fact that in the long run no one can stop you except yourself

This is demonstrably false. Race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, creed, and economic privilege as determiners of success are rampant in the U.S.
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Fenton wrote: Why should anyone feel the need to preserve and protect any kind of culture? Why do we even feel the need to identify with any culture at all?

Because culture is an expression of how humans interact with one another and the world around them. Culture produces art, and gives the world a lot more variation than boring, simple, dull, bland sameness. It should be protected at all costs while still fostering equality.
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Rosalyn J wrote: Isn't it kind of foolish to delineate people as "white people", "black people" etc?

It is, and I think we've talked about my hatred of the term "white people" before, but it is the most easily accessible terminology for the examples I have given. This is because "white people" in America have given up their old cultures to become one homogenous (and mostly boring) culture, give or take a few regional variants, and when we brought Africans over to serve as our unwilling labor force, we stripped them of as much of their African culture as possible, so "black people" (and it's less-friendly variants) became the terms by which we routinely discuss the people and the culture which mixed the force of their oppressors with the continual re-emergence of their pre-slavery foreign heritage.

I think cultural misappropriation can happen to any race by any race.

It can. It has. But I deliberately stuck to examples that I have personally witnessed or experienced that were made by people similar to myself in "culture."

I don't think the genocide of cultures or the mistreatment of particular races was something that "white people" agreed upon when it was done. I refuse to believe that an entire group of people who happened to have a similar genetic makeup, but may have very well been members of separate cultures, came together to systematically destroy a people. Instead I believe that a minority of people with enough power (read money, political influence) created a space in which they could behave in such a manner. This manner then became the norm benefiting only a few of that particular group. The others, I believe were still scrapping the bottom of the barrel to get by.

But that's how this stuff becomes systemic. Those important people at the top spout enough nonsense, rhetoric, and propaganda that everyone believes their way will benefit them even if there's no logical way it can. That's why my father is dirt-poor and still votes Republican, hates unions, and wants the minimum wage to stay low, insisting people should just "work harder." Because he's been fed this lie that if he works harder, maybe one day he can be rich, too.

Ryujin makes an excellent point. Its clear from his post that this so called "white privilege' isn't benefiting him.

I read somewhere the other day that "privilege doesn't mean you automatically have it better than other people, it just means that there are going to be situations where you will be treated differently because of your race/gender/sexual orientation/etc." Whether it's benefiting him in this situation or not, Ryujin still has "white privilege" because of those situations wherein the possibility exists for it to benefit him. That said, while racism, sexism, and homophobia still exist, we often overlook classism in modern Western society--the poor have it worse than almost anyone, regardless of other factors.

I don't believe that cultural appropriation is right. However, I doubt the lady in the picture was intentionally trying to offend anyone.

This is immaterial. Offense, whether intentional or not, still occurs. It's one of the reasons we need to think before we act or speak (or apparently dress.)

If someone was offended by the headdress they should have told her "I am offended by the headdress you are wearing because it represents (inset history lesson here). The result is that she comes away with more knowledge than she entered with. Now if she scoffs at the education, we can really do nothing at that point except move on. We have done our part. We go to the next person who we believe is culturally appropriating and we say the same thing. Maybe that persons mind and thereby actions change. Just like that we have one less person culturally appropriating. The psyche of the world isn't changed en masse (even if we use mass media) but person by person.

But these appropriations are carried out en masse. Individual education is fine for individual instances, but it cannot keep pace with these things happening on a large scale.
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OB1Shinobi wrote: i cant find a post in the last month where you werent demanding the rest of the world conform to your personal preferences

then you talk about being individualistic and standing on ones own feet

1. I thought you were done with this thread?
2. Didn't we already discuss the perception of personal attack in this thread?

Also, having read most of Jamie's posts over the last month, I have to disagree with the meat of what you're trying to say, regardless of whether or not you're attempting to undermine her point by using other conversations against her (none of which are really even applicable here). Try again?