What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

Edan wrote: As an addendum to what Avalon has said, the people that would be excluded from membership were the IP a requirement would include:

- Anyone who works long hours with no little time to study
- Anyone with learning difficulties who struggles with study
- The kids whose reading level is not advanced enough to do the IP (most kids do not do the IP)
- Anyone for whom English is not a first language and they are not proficient in English...

Etc. etc... these are only examples.

Many established members of this temple took a long time to do the IP, would anyone for whom it takes long keep going if they knew that they may never get there and that they will be penalised for it?

What is the penalization?

Handing out membership as participation trophies sets a bad example, but that is of course my opinion.

I took over 6 years to complete the IP. I started in 2010, left, then came back and finished it in 2016.

There is no time limit on the IP. There is no way to fail it. Why shouldn't it be basic reading before becoming an official member of an organization? Unless of course, membership is meaningless. Then you can hand it out to anyone who wants to be "part" of something they haven't even taken time to understand.

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

mmm I could say there is some to learn from others, but also plenty to learn from study, and then the majority of it involves learning from yourself.

Whether it be others, doctrine, ip, apprenticeship or so on, they are all just different ways of guiding to the same end point or material in the end.

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

mmm I could say there is some to learn from others, but also plenty to learn from study, and then the majority of it involves learning from yourself.

Whether it be others, doctrine, ip, apprenticeship or so on, they are all just different ways of guiding to the same end point or material in the end.

That argument then doesn't support the requirement to have the IP, if everything leads to the same outcome.

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

mmm I could say there is some to learn from others, but also plenty to learn from study, and then the majority of it involves learning from yourself.

Whether it be others, doctrine, ip, apprenticeship or so on, they are all just different ways of guiding to the same end point or material in the end.

That argument then doesn't support the requirement to have the IP, if everything leads to the same outcome.

Let me rephrase, each "way" may lead to the same outcome, but not each way works for every person, having the options and availability best supports any given new member coming.

The doctrine is not the foundation of jediism, but most parts of the doctrine, specifically, the code, tenets, 21 maxims are the foundations of jediism. The teachings arrived a few years later in Jediism and have changed quite a lot since the originals. "Jedi believe" is totjo-only.

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Edan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

ren wrote: I think a church shouldn't force "bible study" on its members. But in totjo's case the IP isn't "doctrine study" (although maybe it ought to be), so I really do not see why members should have to go through it.

One could argue that the point of joining and becoming a member of the church is to study said "bible". In addition to being apart of its community of course.

The foundation of jediism is not the doctrine, we don't have a 'bible equivalent'. I would argue that jediism is more about learning from others, which requires no IP.

mmm I could say there is some to learn from others, but also plenty to learn from study, and then the majority of it involves learning from yourself.

Whether it be others, doctrine, ip, apprenticeship or so on, they are all just different ways of guiding to the same end point or material in the end.

That argument then doesn't support the requirement to have the IP, if everything leads to the same outcome.

Let me rephrase, each "way" may lead to the same outcome, but not each way works for every person, having the options and availability best supports any given new member coming.

Forgive me, but that still doesn't sound like an argument that supports the IP requirement. The IP material may work best for some, but not for others.

You make some good points Edan, which I hadn't considered.

I guess I do feel one would be a guest, of sorts, in a religious community, if they had not made the time to study their core beliefs. They may have very good reasons for that, like the ones you mention, but they wouldn't change the fact until you work at a thing, you don't really know it. For me, the reality is until someone really gets under the skin of something, they are a guest of sorts, and that's the status "Member" and to some extent "Novice" currently absorb - we just happen to have different names for them.

I wonder if we're only feeling "Guest" is a negative status of some kind because there are SO MANY ranks above it currently. Member, Novice, Initiate... all of these would be unnecessary is IP was required for being a full member.