What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Avalonslight wrote: There was a young, new member in chat today. Their application was finally accepted and status changed. They're actively engaged in the IP. And you know what they said: "I'm no longer on the outside." That speaks to something. There's an explicit sense of non-inclusion when one is told "you're just a guest"...

Well, we should definitely work on managing expectations. I understand where you are coming from, and to an extent I see value in it as well. However, I do think we should measure this example of "inclusion" with the unreasonable expectation of "I am member, voila! I am a Jedi", which is not inherently bad, but sets people up for the expectation that there is nothing to work towards.

Avalonslight wrote: I was a guest for almost two years on the site before I finally put in my membership application. I did so because, when I joined, the Simple Oath was still a membership requirement. We moved it back to post-IP because people were saying "why should I take an oath when I'm still learning." Because like you said, "pledging support of" something only makes sense after time and commitment have been made. But membership is not a "pledge of support". It's saying "I find something in this community which speaks to me and I'd like to be a part of it" and giving people the option to do so before any training program says "we value you as an individual and welcome you to our society so that you can grow within it as you choose." There's nothing meaningless in allowing people to do that.

If membership simply means "member of a forum", then sure, no reason why they shouldn't become members. In that case, we should just get rid of the "Guest" rank, seeing as plenty of Guests regularly interact and add a lot of value in the boards as well. That way, everyone is included.

I'm pretty sure this was also brought up... but perhaps also make journals only visible to the person writing it and Initiates and above. This would not only prevent copywrite, but also add security, as only people that had put forward a full effort into becoming part of this commuity would be able to view it.

This only helps those working on the IP and those who don't want input from others. Some people post in journals not doing the IP but do so under the guidance of others. And why should initiates read the journals of non-initiates if the non-initiates are not working on the IP? It doesn't make sense.

If someone really wants to keep things private, I see no reason why they can't save everything off site and submit it to someone for review outside of the forum or by PM, that way it's private but nobody else has to have restrictions to their journals.

Perhaps Novice's and above should only be allowed to be in there. Yes, Novice is an easy rank to attain... but yet we have many that become a member and teeter off. But in the end it would add something to attain, making more people want to participate in the IP.

Or scare them off.

How/why would this Temple act differently?

If you went to the same church for 2 years every Sunday and more, would you still consider yourself a guest even if you hadn't taken confirmation or been christened? There are members here who have been so for years without the IP.. do we really consider them 'guests'? I personally don't think so.

Edan,

So, I just noticed. Why are you a Guest and not a Member?

Manu wrote: Edan,

So, I just noticed. Why are you a Guest and not a Member?

I will PM you..

Manu wrote: For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

And I don't know what I did to make that all be a quote, lol. Sorry if it's confusing

Edan wrote:

How/why would this Temple act differently?

If you went to the same church for 2 years every Sunday and more, would you still consider yourself a guest even if you hadn't taken confirmation or been christened? There are members here who have been so for years without the IP.. do we really consider them 'guests'? I personally don't think so.

If you went to the same church every Sunday for 2 years, having read the book or not, you have likely "learned" quite a bit in that exposure to their sermons that would supplant the whole membership/guest question anyway and essentially impart upon you the teachings that you might learn on your own otherwise. In the traditional sense, you have probably been asked to make monetary donations, tithing, and the such by this point, and have thus more or less fulfilled the basic requirements of "membership".

I see here though how the whole question gets distorted by the other condition where, if you have been a member of a specific church your whole life, but only show up for Christmas and Easter...while identifying as a Christian, or the like, and claiming to be a member of that church...are you really? No, the pastor isn't likely to kick you out for not showing up more, or make you pay treble when you do show, you'll remain on their rolls even with years of gaps in appearance, as a member.

Senan : I appreciate that explanation as well. Inclusion and the whole "open door" approach are rather crucial to any institution. I for one actually pondered for a few weeks over whether I wanted to submit the application to become a "member" or simply remain as a "guest" anyway, since I could still do the IP either way. I hesitated namely because the application asked for some rather personal information that I am not generally a fan of sharing over the internet. In the end, having gotten my nose into the IP enough, realizing this was a place that had a lot to offer me, I shrugged off the question of what it was I was getting myself into and whether the personally satisfying notion of being accepted as a "member" would be worth the implied risk.

In the end, perhaps the whole thing is getting a bit too attached to the rank and title question and ignoring the value of being and effort? These are mere words we are utilizing to explain a concept or level of participation, and they are not themselves indicative of one's own path anyway. To the extent either or neither differentiate little other than a personal commitment, I don't know that the "guest/member" question is truly an issue. My primary driving point was that as a "guest" trying to test the waters of the Temple with little other responses aside from "Welcome, check out the FAQ and IP, and PM me if you have questions" is a somewhat lame duck way of allowing people to find the Temple, understand what is offered here, and then decide whether or not they type in the URL again without actually getting a clear coat portrait of "What" the Temple is and "What" it is not.

Perhaps rather than separating the whole issue, or requiring this or that, are far more basic, user friendly, "Introduction" presentation/video of sorts could help answer those simple questions we all had the first day we happened upon the Temple.

Edan wrote:

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

See, that's the important part for me. At the moment you can just buy the shirt, never watch a match, never learn a player's name, and you're in the member's bar. The IP is the learning which underpins membership having any value beyond waiting a week and filling in a form. Literally anyone can become a Member by waiting a week. To me that's not meaningfully distinct from Guest status, and makes the distinction seem a little worthless to me. I'm into ranks only being used when they mean something, and the member rank means "I'm a Guest who waited a week".

I'm also not seeing the stigma attached to Guest rank others seem to be describing... Guests are not outsiders, they are just not very involved in the training we do here. That's fine and they're very welcome, but the ranks represent levels of training... always. Except in the Guest>Member case.

Edit - I must echo Sam though... whilst this is an interesting discussion I don't feel it to be one of the more pressing matters facing us as a Temple, just that on the face of it, it's an idea I see some merit in.

Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism. To be honest, none of the IP options are the way I best learn. I best learn through conversation and connection, so I've been doing a lot of PMing, a lot of asking questions, a lot of listening in on the chat and the forums. In short, I've been doing a lot of learning what it is to be a Jedi.

But this hasn't translated into my IP lessons progressing much. Given the three options this far, reading is easiest for me, but it's still difficult. Not because I don't adore the material but because my particular set of brains just doesn't work that way.

But I am, imo, a member here. I've been given assignments/suggestions by higher ups, and completed them. I've studied in my own way. Maybe there should be criteria for being a member, but I don't think it should be something as massive as the IP (and to me it does feel almost overwhelmingly massive). Maybe an essay/article/ sermon with ten or fifteen questions to answer...

Perhaps we should split the discussion of rank to another thread so as to avoid drowning other unrelated suggestions in the deluge of opinions?

The simplest solution may be to simply do away with the Member rank.
If you're just here to look around until you decide to commit; you're a Guest.
If you decide this really is for you, you've probably fulfilled the current requirements for Novice anyway.

Maybe completing Lesson 1 as a requirement for submitting an application is reasonable; maybe it's not. Not everyone who comes here can study like a full time student.
I like to think I've been reasonably active here since I joined, though I posted little at the outset until I began to feel more accepted as a 'member' of TotJO, but I've only just completed Lesson 1 and it has taken 9 months, because.. well... life. For some this is a small hurdle, easily overcome, on the path to being a member; for others it could well see them give up.

That's why I suggested in my previous post that our Knights/Apprentices could draft some Original TotJO material as a 'Jediism 101'. An introductory lesson or 'IP Lite' would ensure those that sign up know what they're signing up to without requiring onerous amounts of study to determine if this is their path or not. I think making that a requirement rather than the entire IP ticks the boxes for ensuring those that join know what they're joining while not 'indoctrinating' everyone by forcing them to complete more in depth studies. Remember: not every member of a catholic church trains to be a priest, it's enough to learn some prayers/hymns, the commandments and be an active participant in the church. (It actually bothers me how much I rely on mainstream religion to illustrate comparative points - I may need professional help.)


On the subject of Apprentices and the IP, my suggestion was for Apprentices to facilitate discussion among Novices before the Novices complete their individual responses.
By way of analogy, the Apprentice would be the fitness coach running a group fitness class where the participants are responsible for their own efforts under some basic guidance whereas a Knight is like the personal trainer working one on one to ensure their Apprentice is lifting the correct weights in the manner that is best for them as an individual.

Edan wrote: To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

But that is not how people act here. Member or not, everyone is cheering you to come in and celebrate. I've never seen anyone's opinion dismissed simply because they had "Guest" under their name.

I'm not interested in making things exclusive. Openness is a good thing. After reading through quite a few replies, I've changed my position regarding the confidentiality of the IP. But also make titles have value.

ReallyRiver wrote: Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism.

That doesn't really answer the question, though. I understand that there are many ways to learn about Jediism. But how is being a "guest" distinct from being a "member". What changed?

I made a new thread, Rank Names and Are They Important, which I'll answer in

Rick D wrote: Roz,
I know you have already offered to help, and I truly thank you because I am going to need it, but my criticism is more about the clarity of the parameters of the assignment. Everyone says that Krishnamurti is a tough assignment, and maybe it is, but but assignment as spelled out may be part of the problem, and a clearer understanding of what is being asked may make it easier.

Also, I know that there is a team that is working with novices, working through the IP, but my point is that I would like to see it be a compulsory part of the apprenticeship program.

So adding something like onjectives? Questions for consideration?

I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

It is a mistake to ask them to curate our experience as Jedi at any level too much. We are here to learn and train. We should be making efforts to solve our own problems in a manner in keeping withe the mission of the site. Good Jedi will make a good Temple. If you are waiting for the Council to make the place just right before you start keeping it Jedi, you're making an error. It's an understandable error, but an error nonetheless.

The Temple has natural leaders. Some are on the Council and some aren't. And that's alright.

Spend your effort on your further training, your further cultivation. Do not ask the Temple to provide the type of Jedi that you refuse to be. We're all going to make mistakes and we're all going to fail, but if we are steadfast in our efforts and courteous with each other, the rest is dross.

Do not spend too much time focussing on those in authority. It is only website authority. Look to leaders for example and try to be an example yourself. If you don't know how, take it up with your Training Master. You either have one, had one, or will, if you do the work.

The Council has my respect. It is draining, consuming work. I hope this is not regarded as an attack. I just know that good Jedi make the place work. People waiting to be good Jedi do not, and no amount of institutional adjustments will correct for that.

If the webiste were to disappear entirely tomorrow, would you still be a Jedi? How would you respond? Those answers should tell you a lot about what you ought to be doing now.

Cabur Senaar wrote: I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

Well said.

Cabur Senaar wrote: They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

Totally agree.

However.

Given many actions undertaken here, even those which already have officer-led administrative bodies attached (eg from my immediate experience any amendment to any clerical documentation, training etc) must pass through them, and are I would say regularly blocked (or "hung up") by them, that's not really possible.

If the Council were to delegate responsibility to Officers a little more, that would be a great opportunity for the community to feel empowered and for that situation to come about. As it is, we even HAVE the Officers you'd need to make that happen... but their work is dependent on the Council to keep going. "Please can you edit this"... "Please can I change that"... "Please can you guys vote on this new wording for this"... a whole range of day to day stuff Officers aren't trusted to do themselves, dependant on an overworked, slow-moving and poorly-attended body :dry:

One can get on with "being a Jedi" at the Temple very well and unencumbered. But, and I really believe this is an amazingly positive thing, an opportunity and a credit to our community, something to be nurtured and supported as much as possible... people aren't interested in "just getting on". They want to give back. To work within and to grow this place. People don't just want to "sit in" the Temple, they want to be part of the Temple... support it, grow it, improve it. And that is hampered by reliance on the rather cumbersome and opaque Council to make and ratify decisions.

So two options present themselves... either loosen the grip and focus on keeping the lights on and floor clean, or make the Council more effective. Up to this post I've focused on the latter, but there's loads of room for the former.

Being in Council and in Synod as Secretary I will say I havent noticed much of a lag in response time as Pastor. Just things get burried. Someone brought to my attention the confidance form. Totally slipped my mind. Ill need to bump the thread in Council. Ill need to take greater responsibility to keep the silent hammer going

But you must've noticed the wide variety of things we brought forward during your time in Synod before now which were unbelievably delayed or ultimately parked because of Council decisions we couldn't get... and that's an issue, I think it's daft to pretend it's not.