What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism. To be honest, none of the IP options are the way I best learn. I best learn through conversation and connection, so I've been doing a lot of PMing, a lot of asking questions, a lot of listening in on the chat and the forums. In short, I've been doing a lot of learning what it is to be a Jedi.

But this hasn't translated into my IP lessons progressing much. Given the three options this far, reading is easiest for me, but it's still difficult. Not because I don't adore the material but because my particular set of brains just doesn't work that way.

But I am, imo, a member here. I've been given assignments/suggestions by higher ups, and completed them. I've studied in my own way. Maybe there should be criteria for being a member, but I don't think it should be something as massive as the IP (and to me it does feel almost overwhelmingly massive). Maybe an essay/article/ sermon with ten or fifteen questions to answer...

Perhaps we should split the discussion of rank to another thread so as to avoid drowning other unrelated suggestions in the deluge of opinions?

The simplest solution may be to simply do away with the Member rank.
If you're just here to look around until you decide to commit; you're a Guest.
If you decide this really is for you, you've probably fulfilled the current requirements for Novice anyway.

Maybe completing Lesson 1 as a requirement for submitting an application is reasonable; maybe it's not. Not everyone who comes here can study like a full time student.
I like to think I've been reasonably active here since I joined, though I posted little at the outset until I began to feel more accepted as a 'member' of TotJO, but I've only just completed Lesson 1 and it has taken 9 months, because.. well... life. For some this is a small hurdle, easily overcome, on the path to being a member; for others it could well see them give up.

That's why I suggested in my previous post that our Knights/Apprentices could draft some Original TotJO material as a 'Jediism 101'. An introductory lesson or 'IP Lite' would ensure those that sign up know what they're signing up to without requiring onerous amounts of study to determine if this is their path or not. I think making that a requirement rather than the entire IP ticks the boxes for ensuring those that join know what they're joining while not 'indoctrinating' everyone by forcing them to complete more in depth studies. Remember: not every member of a catholic church trains to be a priest, it's enough to learn some prayers/hymns, the commandments and be an active participant in the church. (It actually bothers me how much I rely on mainstream religion to illustrate comparative points - I may need professional help.)


On the subject of Apprentices and the IP, my suggestion was for Apprentices to facilitate discussion among Novices before the Novices complete their individual responses.
By way of analogy, the Apprentice would be the fitness coach running a group fitness class where the participants are responsible for their own efforts under some basic guidance whereas a Knight is like the personal trainer working one on one to ensure their Apprentice is lifting the correct weights in the manner that is best for them as an individual.

Edan wrote: To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

But that is not how people act here. Member or not, everyone is cheering you to come in and celebrate. I've never seen anyone's opinion dismissed simply because they had "Guest" under their name.

I'm not interested in making things exclusive. Openness is a good thing. After reading through quite a few replies, I've changed my position regarding the confidentiality of the IP. But also make titles have value.

ReallyRiver wrote: Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism.

That doesn't really answer the question, though. I understand that there are many ways to learn about Jediism. But how is being a "guest" distinct from being a "member". What changed?

I made a new thread, Rank Names and Are They Important, which I'll answer in

Rick D wrote: Roz,
I know you have already offered to help, and I truly thank you because I am going to need it, but my criticism is more about the clarity of the parameters of the assignment. Everyone says that Krishnamurti is a tough assignment, and maybe it is, but but assignment as spelled out may be part of the problem, and a clearer understanding of what is being asked may make it easier.

Also, I know that there is a team that is working with novices, working through the IP, but my point is that I would like to see it be a compulsory part of the apprenticeship program.

So adding something like onjectives? Questions for consideration?

I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

It is a mistake to ask them to curate our experience as Jedi at any level too much. We are here to learn and train. We should be making efforts to solve our own problems in a manner in keeping withe the mission of the site. Good Jedi will make a good Temple. If you are waiting for the Council to make the place just right before you start keeping it Jedi, you're making an error. It's an understandable error, but an error nonetheless.

The Temple has natural leaders. Some are on the Council and some aren't. And that's alright.

Spend your effort on your further training, your further cultivation. Do not ask the Temple to provide the type of Jedi that you refuse to be. We're all going to make mistakes and we're all going to fail, but if we are steadfast in our efforts and courteous with each other, the rest is dross.

Do not spend too much time focussing on those in authority. It is only website authority. Look to leaders for example and try to be an example yourself. If you don't know how, take it up with your Training Master. You either have one, had one, or will, if you do the work.

The Council has my respect. It is draining, consuming work. I hope this is not regarded as an attack. I just know that good Jedi make the place work. People waiting to be good Jedi do not, and no amount of institutional adjustments will correct for that.

If the webiste were to disappear entirely tomorrow, would you still be a Jedi? How would you respond? Those answers should tell you a lot about what you ought to be doing now.

Cabur Senaar wrote: I think part of the issue lays in the approach. I do not believe we should regard the Council as the primary source of solutions.

I know it sounds bad. Hear me out.

The Council is an administritive body. They take care of the really egregious stuff, but even that is really just custodial work. They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

Well said.

Cabur Senaar wrote: They should keep the lights on and the floor more or less clean.

Totally agree.

However.

Given many actions undertaken here, even those which already have officer-led administrative bodies attached (eg from my immediate experience any amendment to any clerical documentation, training etc) must pass through them, and are I would say regularly blocked (or "hung up") by them, that's not really possible.

If the Council were to delegate responsibility to Officers a little more, that would be a great opportunity for the community to feel empowered and for that situation to come about. As it is, we even HAVE the Officers you'd need to make that happen... but their work is dependent on the Council to keep going. "Please can you edit this"... "Please can I change that"... "Please can you guys vote on this new wording for this"... a whole range of day to day stuff Officers aren't trusted to do themselves, dependant on an overworked, slow-moving and poorly-attended body :dry:

One can get on with "being a Jedi" at the Temple very well and unencumbered. But, and I really believe this is an amazingly positive thing, an opportunity and a credit to our community, something to be nurtured and supported as much as possible... people aren't interested in "just getting on". They want to give back. To work within and to grow this place. People don't just want to "sit in" the Temple, they want to be part of the Temple... support it, grow it, improve it. And that is hampered by reliance on the rather cumbersome and opaque Council to make and ratify decisions.

So two options present themselves... either loosen the grip and focus on keeping the lights on and floor clean, or make the Council more effective. Up to this post I've focused on the latter, but there's loads of room for the former.

Being in Council and in Synod as Secretary I will say I havent noticed much of a lag in response time as Pastor. Just things get burried. Someone brought to my attention the confidance form. Totally slipped my mind. Ill need to bump the thread in Council. Ill need to take greater responsibility to keep the silent hammer going

But you must've noticed the wide variety of things we brought forward during your time in Synod before now which were unbelievably delayed or ultimately parked because of Council decisions we couldn't get... and that's an issue, I think it's daft to pretend it's not.

In addition to my previous post...

We have said for years now that Council is really just a body of people that do the day to day stuff that keeps the site running. That the ultimate goal is to have the knights run the Temple, have more knights in Officer Positions and the members come up with the stuff that explores Jediism.

You all are Jediism. You’re studying and sharing and growing and bringing Jediism further into the light of the world every day. You set the tone for what it will become and should have a say in what a Jedi is. Not a handful of people that basically won a popularity contest. (and that's basically what we are) Just because we are in an administrative capacity on an internet website does not make us the moral arbiters of your spiritual development. Nor does it make us smarter, wiser or “know” what is best for you, Jediism or your spiritual path. No matter what capacity, office or role one of the elected or appointed people holds that remains true.

And I would caution you to question anyone who say, believes or implies otherwise.

That is in part why the IP is self-paced. We are not supposed to tell you what to believe. What is true. Or what you should think or get from something. Who the hell are we to tell you what your spiritual course should take or what you should believe. We’re just people setting behind a desk and typing stuff out for an internet web site. And the stuff that was picked for the IP is there because we thought it would give you the most exposure to a basic set of ideas that we shared at one point. Something to start you on your journey. It is not the end all or be all of wisdom.

Just as your path is for you to discover. Just as you have to find the knowledge that you seek and just as your spiritual journey is in your hands, so is the future of what happens.

And just as is mentioned in several places throughout out the IP, extended lessons, and books of wisdom throughout the world, be weary of self-proclaimed gurus.

Cabur, as usual, that was wonderfully well put. Tzb, also great points made very well. What I take from these most recent posts is (prepare for Goken's unofficial catchphrase) it's about balance.

Sure there are plenty of things that the Council can and should do and we need to hold them accountable, but we are also all in charge of our own paths and experiences. Ask both what can they do and what can I do.

I agree. I think the new approach, sending things in small peices is a little better than sending a whole package through, but we shall see

tzb wrote: Given many actions undertaken here, even those which already have officer-led administrative bodies attached (eg from my immediate experience any amendment to any clerical documentation, training etc) must pass through them, and are I would say regularly blocked (or "hung up") by them, that's not really possible.

If the Council were to delegate responsibility to Officers a little more, that would be a great opportunity for the community to feel empowered and for that situation to come about. As it is, we even HAVE the Officers you'd need to make that happen...

So two options present themselves... either loosen the grip and focus on keeping the lights on and floor clean, or make the Council more effective. Up to this post I've focused on the latter, but there's loads of room for the former.

A fair point. I would like them to be the most efficient broom-pushers possible.

Over the few years tha tI have been here, my priorities have shifted around several times. Speaking for myself, the things that I think are the most important (continued training of myself and others) do not require them overmuch.

I relaize that my priorities are not the only priorities. I just wonder if some of our focus, temple-wide, is misplaced.

Another thing which would make the Temple a better place:

Not making all posts Subscribe by default. Drives me mad! :blink:

*unsubscribes from two posts he forgot to untick in 2 minutes*

tzb wrote: Another thing which would make the Temple a better place:

Not making all posts Subscribe by default. Drives me mad! :blink:

While I appreciate the touch of levity, this is a real thing. I second Stu's request, for the sake of my work-related sanity.

3rd

What I'm hearing is a need for accountability on all sides.

As a Knight myself and being in contact with others, I'll continue to keep track of these suggestions and start encouraging (harassing ) Knights to step up and start doing what we can on our own. We will also look to Apprentices to help where they can and also continue to solicit ideas for improvement. As part of the TOTJO Times staff, I'l make sure we include a page updating the progress on various projects and who is accountable.

When we hit stumbling blocks along the way, my hope is that we can get timely support from Council to remove those blocks and offer approvals before the efforts fizzle, or to decisively squash them before we waste too much time and effort on anything that will ultimately never get through.

Time to go to work, Jedi. Less talk and more action!

Based on some suggestions made here, some Knights and Councillors have been working hard behind the scenes to make some changes, so I want to share this progress update with everyone in order to be transparent and keep everyone here in our Temple in the know.

• Use a different chat client that doesn’t interfere with the site/ability to open a separate window - Our IT whiz Ren has looked at many other alternatives, but they don't work with our current website template well. For now, we'll make the best of what we have, but he is always looking for solutions.
• Broken links in the FAQ and Library - Knight Zenchi is working with others to identify and fix these. If you notice something, let us know!
• Website color theme - The colors can be changed and will be eventually, but functionality of the site is more important right now. Once everything else is stable, we'll begin the cosmetic makeover
• Removing the Auto Subscribe feature from forum posts - DONE! Thanks to Ren for discovering the bug and fixing this!
• Require IP completion in order to become a member - Consensus so far seems to be "NO", but discussions are ongoing about rank and status names, whether to combine or eliminate any, and what access each should have in forums.
• Support more causes/fundraising - We're looking at ways to support the wider community, but the focus now is our own financial well being. We are a charity too, after all.
• Create original material for the IP - Any material should be shared with Knights first, then we will pass it along to the Degree Scheme Administrator and Council for review. It is also valuable to look at the huge number of Sermons that have been contributed by members here. This is our original work!
• Meditation Forum/focus - Knight JLSpinner and Knight Kit have expressed interest in working on this project. You should see a home for meditation topics in the forum soon.

These are just a few of the topics immediately relevant to the Temple. Our Council continues to perform day to day administrative duties as well, and our Clergy has been very busy updating the policies for the Clergy in general and Seminary Training. We're making progress, even if it seems slow at times. Keep the ideas coming and don't be afraid to offer your skills or assistance if you think you can be of help with any improvements.

How cool to see so many ideas that have such a positive bent to them.
Some of the things the Temple might want to do more of, like support specific causes, or offer funds to more Jedi who are actively engaged in some social project, require funds. To that end I'd suggest a more obvious "support us" section of the site, which quickly explains how money collected in this pool will generally be spent, and allows anyone who wants to donate to do so quickly, securely, and easily.

Perhaps a yearly winter fundraiser as well? All of the Council members could write a letter to the Temple that goes over the events of the previous year, the hopes and plans for the next one, and in this way tries to set a clear path for how the Temple will progress. This sort of thing could also help draw in those necessary supporting funds.

The IP could be cleaned up a little more, and perhaps elongated to cover a few crucial elements it is currently missing. It could have a greater focus on comparative religion, a section dealing with how a Jedi behaves and relates within and to the social sphere (Jedi are servants within society, after all). I also don't think it'd be too much to include an optional add-on module to the IP that deals specifically with improving English grammar, spelling, and structure. Even if it was just a collection of links, and a few simple exercises, that would be dramatically helpful.

Accountability and accessibility to the leaders here on the Temple. Right now I feel like there's a divide between people at the "top" and everyone else. I have no idea what the people "up there" are thinking and saying, really. I might not agree with them at all, or I might really want to hear their ideas. There should be more visibility of all those "behind the scenes" aspects of the Temple.

An impartial interior legal system is an absolute must-have, as this organization grows. A group that has power to override other branches of the Temple on certain issues, can act as arbiter in disputes, and can defend the interests of members.

This is a big one for me: more differentiation between members and actual Jedi. I think this could be achieved through simple forum limitations. A post limit, or perhaps a limitation on where non-Jedi can post, and what they can see. This might slow down the forum conversations slightly (which might not be a totally bad thing, actually), but I believe it would be a good idea to start focusing on the opinions of people who are actively and actually interested in being Jedi (with case-by-case exceptions made for specific circumstances, like ex-Jedi who are in good standing).

A specific section of the forum dedicated to "hot-button" issues. If you want to post something that might be inflammatory (and you're seriously interested in a discussion) you can post it here. This frees up the rest of the forums a little. To go along with this, a more clear and readily accessible "rules of decorum" for how to behave on the forum at-large.