RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

This [These] is [are] the issue(s) that caused the schism of the Temple Of The Jedi Force and the Temple Of The Jedi Order.

You know how once in a while you see a SO ORDERED. It's a reference to a major decision of The Order. This is handy years later when doing a search.

Consider that I, Br. John, am the Grand-Cardinal-Arch-Bishop (Pope) of The Order and I'm all powerful.

Since we can't escape The Game Of Black And White ...

(if you have not read this yet - what's wrong with you?)

... I have almost absolute powers at the expense of having almost no choice.

I am Br. John because all of you say I am. I cannot make you a Master. I wish I could. The only way a person learns is by themselves and their's not a better way to learn by yourself than with the help of someone else.

We are on a luminous journey together; our diversity is our spice; our members are our heart; our combined power is beyond good and evil ... light and dark.

We are Jedi.

John, Servant of the servant's of The Order.

By Sirius,

The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities.

Not completely separate, brother. We clergy have normal Jedi ranks too, we just have extra responsibilty by bearing the title of clergy within the Order. I have an apprentice that I am responisble to teach, train, and guide just as other Knights and Masters do. The clergy side of the Temple is not the only side I deal with. If I found that being clergy hindered my efforts to train and teach my apprentice properly, I would step down in a heartbeat. Risking my apprentice is not worth the cost. I am devoted to my apprentice first and foremost. My duty as clergy comes second. So, I don't think it's really two separate entites, just two separate ranking systems for those few who have chosen to take on the extra responsiblity. It in no way, shape, or form makes any of us any better than the rest of our sisters or brothers within the Order. It just means we are able to be of service to them in ways others can not. Please do not take my words the wrong way, this is not any type of rebuke or said in ill towards you. You made very valid and strong points in what you said.

Yeah, I don't that was the intention of what I said...but I don't take offense at all. I just basically meant that there really is no way to use such similar titles and ranks for Jedi and Clergy, as all would do is confuse. Not they they are separate...but serve different roles.

Exactly my point br. justice, although not all Jedi are clergy, all clergy are still Jedi, therefore should correlate to a Jedi structure. As far as ordinations, simply a Master Jedi Cleric would be the ones who could do it, same as if you called them a Bishop instead. I'm still curious what other things that senior clergy would do aside from ordinations, which admittedly I hadn't thought of before, and should be done only by senior clergy.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Here was what I suggested:

Non Clergy -- - Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

These represent those who do not choose to be Clergy, and those who do, They separate those with more responsibility, seniority, knowledge, experience or whatever for both for Clergy and Non Clergy. It makes distinct separation for either, and makes it quite easy to discern who to go to if you need someone for a Clergy matter, regardless of the level you need to talk to. And under no circumstance, should Jedi be left out. First and foremost, everyone of us should be a Jedi, and if your not a Jedi, you should not be any sort of member of Jediism Clergy. By denying what we are, Jedi, we are selling ourselves short. You can be a Jedi and a member of the Clergy, by taking the term Jedi out of it, it would seem you have to choose one or the other. Just some more thoughts.

DK

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

When we start dealing out titles like some of the ones I've seen suggested, people are going to start power-tripping, and how is that in keeping in line with Jediism? We aren't Bishop's or Archbishops or monsignor's, I joined Jediism, the closest thing I could agree to other than just Init, App, Knight or Master, is the Cleric idea, it's generic, and still conveys something of a religious title with it. We aren't supposed to favor another religion, we are autonomous, or so says the Front page in no certain terms.

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Maybe we should put it to a vote, it seems the sensible thing to do. If someone can contact Jidun, I'd prefer we put it on the side than wait for people to sign into this particular forum board and vote. I say we leave it open for atleat two weeks, and somehow (if possible) prevent multiple voting by the same person.

DK

Very wise idea Brother DK, one of our Jedi beliefs is \"In the importance of democracy within religious, political, and other structures.\"
Let the brethren decide.

Lenny
Jedi Knight

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

Br. John wrote:

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

The church has already voted and accepted the Current Jedi ranking structure has it not? It was my understanding this had to do with Clergy not the Jedi ranking.