The Problem with Black Lives Matter

The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

White supremacy, and any other form of supremacy, cannot exist without a system of supremacy. Where those in power nearly have, if not completely, direct control of people and their actions.

It's the reason why we even have a drug war that supports the prison-industrial-complex. When, as I said, you have a right to self. Including what you take into yourself. That's one part of the problem..

Racism is a moral issue that can't be dealt with using force. Systematic oppression, of the less influential, is an issue that can be done with easily.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

I have to respectfully disagree. I think seeing the individual without respect for collective is essentially the same as missing the forest for the trees.

The relationship one has to one's family, for instance, is similar to every organism's relation to those members of their species who aid in their survival.

And indeed... my offspring are also part of myself that I leave in the world even after I'm gone.

The connection to the whole is the proof that we are more than just the sum of our individual parts.

Humanity must see humanity, not just humans.

The problem is that we've lost our greater identity because of individualism. Every organism increases its power when part of a group. Individual cells are meaningless without identifying with organs. It is in relationship to the collective that we derive roles and responsibilities.

White people should be proud of their collective accomplishments. Black people should be proud of theirs. But when we come together we should be proud of white accomplishments and black accomplishments. We should help each other, strengthen each other, mourn the loss of each other, love each other. It took a lot for me to get here. People died so I could get here. Black people and white people sacrificed so that we could be here together. We should not throw that away. It's not about stripping something away from ourselves we don't think is good or working. It's about learning to accept all of ourselves.

If someone desires to be superior over another group they can also feel superior over other individuals and already do. And if they working for supremacy as a group then no way would they simply give up that group that gives them an advantage. Things are always easy if people would simply do what we want them to do. But they won't because they're acting in their own self-interest, not the interest of other individuals or the communities they belong to. Cells that act in their own self-interest without regard to the collective body of which they are residents are, by definition, cancer.

I'm proud to be black because being black isn't easy. I'm simply also proud to be an American (I wasn't always). I'm proud to be a man. And more than that I am proud to be human. We must embrace all levels of our existence because they (being environmental constructs) all relate back to who you are: strengths, weaknesses, benefits, liabilities, advantages, challenges, and all experiences in between. If a person cannot respect the fact that I am black (blackness is a man-made concept but so is 'animal' and 'person') then they cannot accept me as an individual, be they white, black, or other.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: White supremacy, and any other form of supremacy, cannot exist without a system of supremacy. Where those in power nearly have, if not completely, direct control of people and their actions.

It's the reason why we even have a drug war that supports the prison-industrial-complex. When, as I said, you have a right to self. Including what you take into yourself. That's one part of the problem..

Racism is a moral issue that can't be dealt with using force. Systematic oppression, of the less influential, is an issue that can be done with easily.

Systems are created to increase efficiency and power. They tend to grow over time. The problem is the system in question is a governing system. If it were outside the government I would suggest a competing system. Because the systems of government are co opted by those seeking power and because "some" of those seeking power are racist, parts of the system are "hacked", if you will, and those parts become racist. After all, if a hacker compromises your computer with a virus your computer will behave in a manner the virus dictates. Even other systems within your operating system end up serving the virus if they were designed to serve the parts of the system infected.

This is what makes racism systemic/systematic.

When black people say "white people", it depends on the context. If the context is racism then what we're saying is that white people are like a computer that has been infiltrated and taken over by racist hackers to the extent that vital parts of the system represent and serve their interests. But their computer doesn't have anti-virus software. It can't simply delete the virus, which is in very deep, but it can create rules that all programs, infected and non-infected, have to go through to detect the virus whenever the rules are broken. Once you detect the virus you must quarantine the virus and restrict its access.

What BLM was attempting to do is point and say "the virus is here! the virus is right over here!"

But instead of attacking the virus the system attacks the programs being affected by the virus. It attacks them for identifying the virus and urging a response from the entire system. In what possible scenario would I ignore the virus as the cause of the attack on the programs? Modern viruses protect themselves and adapt to removal methods. What we're dealing with is "Social Hacking" (a legitimate form of hacking). and credibility is like currency. If the virus can take away your credibility then you become powerless to stop it. Only the virus would want to take away your ability to stop it. ONLY THE VIRUS. And if the computer isn't attacking the virus it is because it is being operated and influenced by the virus.

All you can do to a virus is to try to outsmart the virus, recognize what it is, clean infected files and inoculate clean files. If there are thousands or millions of files, so be it. Because the only other solution is reinstall your operating system and possibly delete every file that could reinfect it. Cleaning those files is hard because while you think the virus is done, the virus is always working. The virus is always using the system to infect more files.

As long as it serves a purpose the virus will remain under the control of those who benefit from the virus.

ZealotX wrote:

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

I have to respectfully disagree. I think seeing the individual without respect for collective is essentially the same as missing the forest for the trees.

The relationship one has to one's family, for instance, is similar to every organism's relation to those members of their species who aid in their survival.

And indeed... my offspring are also part of myself that I leave in the world even after I'm gone.

The connection to the whole is the proof that we are more than just the sum of our individual parts.

Humanity must see humanity, not just humans.

The problem is that we've lost our greater identity because of individualism. Every organism increases its power when part of a group. Individual cells are meaningless without identifying with organs. It is in relationship to the collective that we derive roles and responsibilities.

White people should be proud of their collective accomplishments. Black people should be proud of theirs. But when we come together we should be proud of white accomplishments and black accomplishments. We should help each other, strengthen each other, mourn the loss of each other, love each other. It took a lot for me to get here. People died so I could get here. Black people and white people sacrificed so that we could be here together. We should not throw that away. It's not about stripping something away from ourselves we don't think is good or working. It's about learning to accept all of ourselves.

If someone desires to be superior over another group they can also feel superior over other individuals and already do. And if they working for supremacy as a group then no way would they simply give up that group that gives them an advantage. Things are always easy if people would simply do what we want them to do. But they won't because they're acting in their own self-interest, not the interest of other individuals or the communities they belong to. Cells that act in their own self-interest without regard to the collective body of which they are residents are, by definition, cancer.

I'm proud to be black because being black isn't easy. I'm simply also proud to be an American (I wasn't always). I'm proud to be a man. And more than that I am proud to be human. We must embrace all levels of our existence because they (being environmental constructs) all relate back to who you are: strengths, weaknesses, benefits, liabilities, advantages, challenges, and all experiences in between. If a person cannot respect the fact that I am black (blackness is a man-made concept but so is 'animal' and 'person') then they cannot accept me as an individual, be they white, black, or other.

You can't miss the uniqueness of the trees for the vastness of the forest. These connections are good for growth. However, it's the inner person that makes the man. It's the reason two siblings from the same home can become totally different people.. These temporal conditions aren't what makes us. They're tools for growth. An accumulation of the experiences of these conditions, and the choices made by them, constitute the character of the soul. Each one being as unique as a snowflake.. and we can't forget to be able to distinguish ourselves from others or run the risk of a mob-like mentality. The is the beauty of our level in creation. It's a delicate balance. Cooperative Individualism is part of it.

This purely collective, tribal way of addressing our problems is causing more harm than good because of the anger and hate being projected into it..

How can we learn to respect each other's tribe when we can barely do so as individuals?.. Look at Colin is being treated. Folks can't respect his personal right of speech and protesters. Much less the issue he wanted to bring attention to..

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: You can't miss the uniqueness of the trees for the vastness of the forest. These connections are good for growth. However, it's the inner person that makes the man. It's the reason two siblings from the same home can become totally different people.. These temporal conditions aren't what makes us. They're tools for growth. An accumulation of the experiences of these conditions, and the choices made by them, constitute the character of the soul. Each one being as unique as a snowflake.. and we can't forget to be able to distinguish ourselves from others or run the risk of a mob-like mentality. The is the beauty of our level in creation. It's a delicate balance. Cooperative Individualism is part of it.

I agree. But snowflakes are different because the conditions that make them are different. I don't believe in strictly 'nature or nurture'. I believe in 'nature AND nurture'. My sister and I are different because our experiences in life go beyond the parenting we both received. And even that was different because I was their second child. They had the benefit of more experience. My sister and I also had different experiences being opposite genders. We went to different schools, had different friends. And yet, by nature, we have similarities that other kids from other parents may have only by coincidence. Race, religion, and culture were all factors. ALL these things add up to unique individuals. ALL these things should be accepted if someone claims to accept you.

In the Brown Eyes Blue Eyes experiment Jane Elliott proved that treating a group a certain way would create the behavior commonly associated with black people as an oppressed minority. She transferred the same treatment to people with blue eyes as opposed to brown skin. One could argue the ethics of this, but the results were telling.

The things that we've gone through help build us. Our reaction to the opposition, the tactics we use to navigate racism and discrimination, the humility we have to endure to survive encounters with the police. It seems like it would be easier if we were all the same color. But the truth is that people would then find some other difference to use because racism itself is a strategy of supremacy. It doesn't simply exist to exist or because people thought it was a good idea. It exists because it serves a purpose. It acts a shield between the rich and the poor.

Like most things in a capitalistic society, racism has always been about money. Not only were slaves an economic commodity, but also, poor blacks were blamed for whites having fewer jobs and opportunities. With freed slaves suddenly competing for paying jobs... it was musical chairs and someone had to lose out. The love of money is called the root of all evil because it is corrupting. You were right when you said racism was a moral issue. But as long as it is also a tool it cannot die from moral arguments.

Not really that important to the discussion but this is what i meant about Cosby:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/bill-cosby-quaaludes-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

Coke (and today, meth) makes people horny... qualudes make people sleepy, and eventually unconscious. If he had admitted to buying a bunch of coke in order to have sex with women, that would be different.
But fair enough, I don't really know. I read as much as was available at the time that i cared to read about it and drew the conclusion that made sense based on what i read. I'm not Bill Cosby or any of the women, and i wasn't in the jury or any part of the proceedings. Again, its not really important to this discussion, unless maybe you don't believe I would judge a white guy by the same standards. Which i say that I would.

ZealotX wrote:
I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

When I was writing that post, somehow I hit the "submit" button long before I was done writing. So an unfinished (and not entirely coherent) post was submitted into public view, and with a short window for editing, I had to slap together some links without really looking that closely at them. I have been posting here for years on this topic. Ive submitted links before and besides that, i am VERY familiar with the issue and I know quite well that what I said about how "racism" has been deformed into "whiteness" was accurate, whatever the content of that specific link may have been.


And therein is the first of the obstacles that will keep us divided, because I will not join a side when its basic premise is predicated on my personal guilt for things that happened before i was even born, or the idea that i am to be held to a different set of standards because of my skin color. I am guilty only of the consequences my own choices and I do not accept the guilt of anyone else as my own. I will not cooperate with a social movement that seeks to impinge me for someone else's behavior and I will hold all parties to the same set of standards. These will be recurring themes of our discussions lol.

ZealotX wrote: Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

Racism has meant the same thing for decades. There is a modern, SJW version, where racism is specifically white supremacy, and only white people can be guilty of it. THATS the "socially engineered" version of racism, and embracing it as valid is not going to reduce the amount of real racism in the world.

ZealotX wrote: So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based.

There isn't a functional definition of racism offered either in your words nor in that ridiculous video, unless you mean "race" in the sense of a race-track, where we compete in and field events... like we are all racing against each other to get to the finish line.

The closest thing to a definition was this: "Racism is a competitive relationship between groups of people that are competing for the ownership and control of wealth and resources".

Point 1:
LOL, Thank you Karl Marx, for that is Marxism exactly. The idea of civilization as a battleground (of wealth and resources) between the proletariat and the bourgeois. Its literally just B.S. Marxist theory overlaid to western capitalism generally and American politics specifically. Except now you (general "you" meaning the radical leftists) want to identify the bourgeois as the straight white male, and everyone else as the proletariat. That playbook made communist nations a hell-hole for hundreds of millions of people, and it would do the same to USA if it is allowed to. But it wont be, because, ME, lol.

Point 2:
Arent realtors and stockholders "groups of people competing for the ownership of wealth and resources"? In fact, arent you and i? The job market itself is a competition, and so is housing. So is shopping for groceries or clothes, for that matter. We are involved in all of those markets, competing with each other for the ownership of wealth and resources.

Point3:
The dude in the video is not EXACTLY wrong, but from my understanding, hes not right either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#Slavery_incorporated_into_canon_law

If you care to find a copy of the original papal decree then we can look at that. Otherwise, I'm calling it "revisionist B.S.'
If you want to use the formula "racism = racial prejudice + social power" then that would be ok with me. But i predict that isn't going to be allowed for much longer because it doesnt work to the ambitions of the Marxists who want us to battle each other with group vs group identity politics. It doesn't work because there are too many examples of non-whites in positions of wealth, influence, and power.

I'm going to let you in on a secret: white people don't actually have some grand white brotherhood of conquest, dominance, and exclusion. Believe it or not, Dick Cheney doesn't give any more of a fk about me than he does about you. He is certainly a part of a large number of powerful groups, but whiteness is not the defining criteria for membership in those groups. Wealth, yeah. Ownership of multi-national companies, claims to big energy and infrastructure building. Ties to the intelligence community. Membership at a number of prestigious golf clubs, even.
Now admittedly, being white was a prerequisite during a particular time in history (and in some cases it is still and in some cases it may still be quite a challenge to break through into certain groups if one isn't white) but America has got non-white people who have risen to positions of great wealth, authority, and influence. And the groups which hold the most power are not in fact predicated on race, but rather on economic and political significance.

ZealotX wrote: Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

By this "definition" (which isn't a definition, though it seems to have been accepted as one), everyone who pays taxes is a racist. Everyone who holds a job or votes, or basically isn't a communist revolutionary plotting a civil war and the displacement of the entire USA government is racist.

ZealotX wrote: No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

If daesh kidnapped and murdered you, it wouldn't be because you deserved to be kidnapped and murdered, it would be because daesh are kidnapping, murdering, raping, pillaging bastards. Kidnapping and murdering people is what they do.

ZealotX wrote: I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does.

Its your responsibility to decide where your responsibility begins and ends. If you think that youre responsible for the Iraq invasion (which I'm using as a place holder for all of usa interactions with muslim countries) then that's your choice to feel that way. I used my voice as well as i was able at the time, but the tides were against me. I voted the way i voted, but my vote didn't win. I did what i could do, the rest of the world did what it did. I accept responsibility for my actions because i am responsible for my actions. Other people took other actions, and those people are responsible for their actions.

ZealotX wrote: I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done.

If I'm responsible for "all the things that the white race has collectively done" then doesnt that mean i am also responsible for electricity? The abolition of slavery? Industry? Modern infrastructure? Democracy? Airplanes? The internet?
Arent i responsible for the building of Western civilization in general? Dont i also deserve personal credit for all the good things that white people have done and produced over the years? Or am i only to be given the blame for their mistakes and crimes?

Whatever your opinion may be, I accept neither the credit nor the blame.\.
The only part that i have to play in this game is what i do with my own life. I was born into the context of this era, what i do within that context is my responsibility but the context itself is not.



The current state of research basically says that implicit bias testing can produce MORE bias in people who are forced to take the training, but that it can also be useful for reducing bias in people who volunteer to take it.

Its also not exactly proven that it measures racism, so much as "novelty response" which is quite different from racism. I'm not really wanting to say that the idea of testing has absolutely no place. My real issue with it is more about everyday people thinking they "sense" the unconscious bias of their peers. I cannot stand paranoid black people who "just know" that all the white people aroudn them are racists because... whatever.

Ive spent a lot of time with a lot of black people. I lived in black neighborhoods as a child, went to primary, middle, and high schools with large black populations. Ive been to jail and had to live and cell-mate with black people. Ive returned to school in my adulthood and am currently a student at a community college, and many of my peers nd some of my professors are black: growing up, my best friends (and worst enemies) were often black. My jiujitsu coach (one of the most important people in my life) is black. Ive crushed on black girls and ive worked with AND FOR black people in many of the jobs that ive had over the years.

I have known MANY black people, and a not-insignificant number of them have stereotyped me, assuming that i judge them harshly because they are black. I dont decide a persons merit based on their skin: I judge people by how they carry themselves and the ideas they express. If your ideas are ignorant and juvenile then i wont like you, whatever color you are. If your bearing is one of integrity and personal responsibility, then i will like you (or at least respect you) whatever color you are.

Ive seen a lot of black people assuming racism where there wasnt any, and this idea of unconscious bias just adds to that. I dislike it because it makes it easy for people to decide racism exists without any real proof. When you cant find any actual, objective evidence for racism, you can ALWAYS pull the "unconscious bias" card to inject racism even when there isn't any, AND MANY PEOPLE DO JUST THAT. That's what i really dislike about it.

ZealotX wrote: The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race.

So, we agree that you cannot hold one person responsible for the actions of some other, completely unrelated person, simply because they have the same skin color? If we can agree on that then it will go a long way towards us reaching an accord. If not, well that's life. We dont always agree with each other.

ZealotX wrote: On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

We all have personal experiences. I can give you some pretty unhappy experiences from my own life (especially my childhood) but i wont. I will repeat the importance of personal responsibility. We all get treated unfairly in life. You might think its worse for you because youre black. This other person thinks its worse for him because he is gay. That one thinks its worse for her because shes a woman. Another thinks its worse for her because she is ugly and not very smart. Another says he is fat and socially inadequate. Yet another is dirt poor and another is scrawny and afraid of everyone. We all feel persecuted. And really, we all ARE persecuted at certain moments in our lives. Yet, virtually all of us end up with the lives that we built through our personal decisions, in spite of our persecutions.

ZealotX wrote: But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists....

I'm not saying the idea is specific to BLM, I'm saying it is a general refrain of the psycho, communist, infiltrated, modern left. Which in no way should be taken to suggest that i deny the psycho crazies on the right, there are many. I'm against crazy people being in charge no matter what their political affiliations are.
Which makes me a true minority in this mad house of an era lol
My point is only that if we really want to build a society of justice and fairness then we have to reject ALL racist ideas.

ZealotX wrote: ....in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites.

I'm not sure what you actually meant when you said that but it comes across as "ive interacted with enough racist white people that I just know that pretty much all white people are racist".

ZealotX wrote: At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.

That part, I agree with.

I will be back, eventually.

@OB1Shinobi

First, let me applaud you. You are a great person. I really do mean this. This is part of the reason I have enjoyed having this discussion here as opposed to YouTube because the quality of individual character tends to be higher, imho. Often the people who have the worst things to say are the ones who make sure, like the trolls they are, that we hear them. They criticize everything from how we look to our IQ. I would say a lot of racists enjoy trolling people when they can get away with it. And before the internet, they were basically still trolling us and adding to the perception that their feelings were widespread. I'm personally not saying they are. In the next 2 posts, if I don't respond to every point you made it is only because I agree with you. But it wouldn't be right if I didn't try to explain how many of us view racism as a "collective" action of white people without personally blaming you. It's not meant to be personal. It's not meant to say OB1Shinobi... you are a racist. Not at all. There are always exceptions to every rule and you are exceptional.

What we have experienced is by definition "(white) racism". Where we came from everyone was some shade of brown. My skin color is brown, not black. So even the term itself is an exaggeration meant to draw attention to my color being about as different as it can get. When we couldn't drink from white fountains... it was ALL white fountains, not some of them. And I know you weren't there and you're not guilty. I wasn't there either. But when we had Jim Crow laws against us and when we were trying to run to freedom in the North, we knew that it wasn't all whites who were cool with it. That's why we knew to go North. Because there we would find people like you. That doesn't mean that suddenly racism is asian racism or latino racism. It's still white racism. And we want white people do do something about it because they are the only ones who can. When we are treated a certain way because of our race it is only the "house negro" who tends to say "but masa aint like that. He cares about us negros" and then we tell that uneducated person to shut the hell up because masa still views him as his property and no one ever said it was every single individual white person that was guilty. How would children be guilty? So no, we have never meant it that way. It's more like... those innocent children might grow up to be racists so their parents have to be responsible for them. We came from villages where your kids were essentially everyone's kids. Every adult had some level of responsibility to protect each other and educate and protect each other's kids. We have since been shifting away from that into more of the American sense of individual responsibility, but we still have that sense of shared responsibility in our culture which I think is why we lean more towards the Democratic Party. So I think it is a cultural way of thinking, not necessarily that every individual of a group is the same (which is why Ben Carson exists). And I can understand the confusion and agree that it would be terrible if that's what was meant.

I am also aware of how smaller groups and organizations make themselves sound bigger than they are. I'm also keenly aware of how the worst individuals of a group can be made to represent that group. A lot of the stereotypes against black people are based on the same thing. When people use words like thugs and super predators... we know who they're talking to and who they're talking about. And we know the effect words can have on a minority that doesn't have political or economic power.

According to history, it was a small minority of whites who actually owned slaves. However, many black people are under the "impression" that it was widespread. Of course slave masters with large fields would have a large number of slaves so if everyone had slaves then the white population would have been severely outnumbered. But I want to talk about this to help us all understand how impressions and perceptions play a huge role in the continuity of racism and white supremacy.

As I said before, there was a time when poor blacks and poor whites were working together and the rich whites were the minority however their wealth gave them power. Instead of losing their power to the majority the divided them. They gave land and jobs to poor whites on the basis of race. And even though those poor whites never owned a slave a day in their lives they protected the rich whites and helped them keep black people in a weaker position and even helped them by fighting for their right to keep slaves. And so even today, poor whites are taught to blame black people whenever they can't get jobs or opportunities that they were used to getting from the wealthy whites because they got it before on the basis of race.

It would be most accurate to blame the rich whites who basically used racism as a tool to enlist poor whites to help them maintain their power and economic supremacy, but this is basically where white supremacy comes from. It comes from whites who aren't wealthy, helping the wealthy whites stay on top because they believe they will create jobs (for them) and this is echoed by conservative talking points. If you want to say that the far right, I won't argue. But that's how I see it. And generally, the black community has suffered a number of events beyond slavery and jim crow, where we have seen the hate of the non-elite, non-wealthy, and even the non-educated, whites, create even more issues for us than the wealthy whites. It seems to me that the lower class whites were the group that was in competition with blacks. Therefore they were the ones who compared themselves to black people, who judged black people the harshest, who treated all black people as a monolith, and who ultimately didn't know black people because of how they tried to keep us segregated.

Now rich slave masters would have sex with black women all the time. But for the poor whites... the idea of a black man and a white woman was a perversion of nature and blasphemy. So there were mobs of whites that would burn down our towns. There has never been a black protest that has come close to the destruction of these mobs. And although a woman claiming rape was used as justification (even if it was a lie) it was jealousy and hate that motivated them. I think that probably most of the wealthy whites today are the LEAST racist because they never really had a reason to be. Like you said about Cheney, and you're right, he doesn't give a damn about either of us. Absolutely right. But POLITICALLY... he would never say that and republicans would never say that. Politics in general is a deceptive practice because the point isn't to let everyone know exactly what you think or feel but how you can manipulate people to think you're on their side even when you're NOT. That's how they steer the ship of a democracy even though they are in the minority.

What I'm suggesting to this forum is that the political effect of wealthy whites on poor whites helps to build up and maintain racism. The racial hatred mostly comes from poor whites. Those actually willing to do actual hate crimes tend to be uneducated as well. This wouldn't have affected you because of where you lived but in rural white communities and small towns with very few black people... yes, it has an effect. Think about how the KKK reacted to Donald Trump when he first condemned their actions vs. afterwards when he said there were some fine people among them and that both sides were to blame. They feel like he's with them. They feel like they have a voice in the white house. And when he says MAGA... they think MAWA. Now is Trump a racist? I think he is prejudiced and racially biased based on his past but I do not think he has any real connection with the alt-right, nazis, KKK, etc. I think he is using them just like he uses everyone else whose last name isn't Trump. There is a disconnect between the rich and the poor and the poor are largely seen as dependent on the rich. So instead of being disenfranchised by globalization and turning on their rich politicians... they blame black people. So this idea that "they took our jobs", what's that? This goes back to the definition of racism I shared before where it is about the control of resources for that particular racial group." It is un-American in ideology but essentially this is what the real racists believe. If they think blacks are inferior or whatever it is... hatred is not even necessary to racism because the bottom line is an "us vs them" mentality when it comes to SURVIVAL. And that has everything to do with control of the wealth and resources.

This is why white supremacy still exists; because it benefits white people in general. If you're playing basketball, if there's even one extra man on the court it is an unfair advantage. If one team is playing as a team and the other "team" is just a bunch of individuals trying to score for their own records, they'll lose because the team always has the advantage. Other groups that come to America also have a tendency to play as a team; especially because they see the disadvantage of not doing so. Even if you don't see it and there's no meetings, many whites do play as a team. And many of the ones who don't hire friends or family or school mates. These can have the appearance of being racist if those friends, family, school mates are all white because of where they grew up and went to school. Either way, if it wasn't for diversity hires I'd hate to see black unemployment numbers. And racism shouldn't be tolerated because it is against the ideals that the United States of America were founded on. And you have many whites who hold those ideals higher than race and higher than any desire to defend racism. And it is those whites who have evolved beyond the pettiness and who can save white people from this social virus.

I'd say I'm middle class but most black people are in the lower class. What kind of white people do they tend to come into contact with? Certainly not rich people who don't work at at any place they go to. We are already segregated by economics. Either we're dealing with the white people who grew up with us (like you) who are "cool" with us and vice versa or we're dealing with whites who see themselves in competition with us; not "one of us". So therefore, the perception many of us get, is that it (racism) is coming from all parts of the white community. It's coming from the top and the bottom. It's coming from the top because the top creates the systems and institutions and allows them to be run a certain way (in whatever way that will protect them and serve their agenda) and it comes from the bottom as the cogs in those systems and the instruments of that agenda.

Now if you look at whites in the middle... this is where a lot of the progressives are. They don't understand racism. They don't feel privy to racism. They're not generally in on the joke. They don't go to the same bars. They don't live in the same neighborhoods. They are segregated by class economics. So they are surprised to see overt racism in 2017. And they can't stand it. But... the black community simply cannot accept their blindness as an excuse. But the civil rights movement and other large protests are mainly an effort to get their attention as well as others who don't want to be part of this system of white supremacy. If black people simply thought ALL white people (on an individual level) were racist then what point would demonstrations serve? What point would marches and rallies have? Especially when white people and white clergy would march with us? And think about it like this... why were white people marching with us? Who did they hope would take notice? Who did they want to influence? I submit that they knew racism was a "white" problem.

We live in different strata of society. Within this there are different stereotypes that everyone knows isn't true for every individual. You've probably heard "white men can't jump", or "white people can't dance", etc. Silly stuff. But no one is thinking that there is not a single white person that has rhythm. That could be proven wrong all day by the number of white jazz musicians alone. And things, I think have gotten better, within the strata of America in which all races merge and share cultural aspects with each other. And yes, even if we might be able to trace it to Africa (like how everyone came from Africa), we associate martial arts with China and Japan. Yes, electricity is associated with Europeans just like black museums give credit to "black inventions". Now if you don't think of inventions as belonging to a racial group I think that's fantastic. But black people are more reactionary so it's because our history isn't taught in our public schools and I have personally had to defend my race against uneducated bigots who would tell me that black people never invented anything... things like that make us protective of our culture and contributions. But still, it is an emotional reaction to hate. That's why if we can solve the problem at its source then black people won't have to react to it, deflect it, or project it, and we'll then be able to get past racism.

The people in this conversation might be interested in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gm3CJePn0&t=4s

Classic example of labels getting in the way. Not a fan of the launguage and the way it's presented. That's just me.
When the sick get sick of being sick -then they can begin to heal.
Thank you for that somber idea. Thank you - truly - not sarcasticly.

A very good video. Yeah, harsh language, but its to get a dialogue going, so I think it appropriate. Most hate in the world comes from ignorance. They don't know the other half of the story.

Ignorance, yet Knowledge.

I am not a racist. I disavow myself of any apparent privilege I may have based on race, and I reject the idea that any just system can have racial preferences. I would prefer to be called by my name rather than my skin color; my skin color has nothing to do with me. There is no aspect of European descent which appeals especially to me, and there is no pride that I take in any of my ancestral culture or heritage. If I am subject to privilege, though I have yet to see even a single instance in my personal life where I have been benefited by being white, I consider that unjust and would reject it if ever I came in contact with it, even at my own disadvantage.
With that being said, I put no faith nor trust in any group which specifically represents the interests of one group of people. Human beings are equal. That means black, white, brown, any skin color -- all human beings are equal. Putting special interest in one group, even when it is disproportionately represented in the justice system, is unjust.
The injustice is had when there is disproportionate application of force in the justice system. That is what I stand against. Namely, I stand against any use of unjustified force in any situation -- but especially in the cases of police officers, military members, politicians, and so on who are supposed to act as role models for the rest of society. These are really the most despicable people, because they were in a position of societal trust and decided to betray it in a horrible way.
I cannot support any group which puts the needs of one group over the many, especially when the needs of all could be met with simple regulations within the workplace. Simply put, ending police brutality ends police brutality against minorities. That is the goal. Why purposely divide a movement working against police brutality by applying a racial lens? That lends only to ineffectiveness, as we have seen from the BLM movement.
I have no doubt that many BLM supporters have been justly motivated to work for a good social cause. It is naive, though, to think that the causes outlined in the BLM protests will solve the underlying issues plaguing our society. There is a better way.

In addition, I have personally seen a rise in black nationalism since the BLM movement came about. Plenty of people out there today are preaching about how the white man is the most evil thing to face the earth. That is nothing but racism in my eyes.

Yes, it is possible to be racist against people with white skin.
No, people who have white skin are not automatically racist.
No, this does not invalidate the real issue which is police brutality.
If you believe that those three previous statements are false, I would be glad to address any of your specific points and show you how you are wrong. Because you are wrong. You support viewing morality through a racial lens, which is NEVER under ANY circumstances acceptable.

tl;dr: abuse of authoritarian systems to justify violence is the problem. Race has NOTHING to do with it, and if there are racial separations in police brutality it is solved most easily by solving the issue of police brutality -- not "solving police brutality for African-Americans". Even the notion that such a thing would specifically be targeted at benefiting one group over another sickens me to my core.

The reason "we" wetbacks don't have a beef with BLM is because we are not their target. White people ARE.

It is unfortunate, black people have had to suffer through so much injustice throughout the history of America, the wounds are still fresh and they want to be heard.

YES, some people are anti-BLM only because they are inconvenienced by people protesting.

But when a group of any sort paints a target on you (white folk), it is only a matter of time before a counter-movement is generated. White people protesting BLM is a result of targeted racism towards white people. Granted, it has not been enough to reverse systemic racism in America, but it is enough to make the "common white folk" wary and even resentful of other people denouncing their "oppression" when they perhaps grew up poor, jobless and powerless themselves.

The problem with police shooting unarmed black civilians is a BIG problem, and it needs to be addressed by an overhaul of rules of engagement that law enforcement uses. The goal, of course, is not to stop black kids from being shot, but ANY kid from being shot by a cop.

The video is good. I almost couldn't make it through because I didn't know if the conversation was going to be one-sided or not. I couldn't listen to the MAGA guy criticize the "black man" for 6min +. I thought the black guy's response was weak but that's truthfully both perspectives were from the lesser educated class of both races which is where a lot of the friction and problems come from. A lot of the points they're talking about really go way too deep for their level of discourse but this is true too of the larger argument. The people arguing often do not know the deeper story or the last impacts of slavery and white supremacy. The white people who can "get it" are often whites who are educated and more intellectual. These whites aren't the type to isolate themselves from other cultures. If they like Jazz music they'll listen. If they like fried chicken they'll eat it. They aren't defined or limited by race. They are not racists. And yes, I think of pretty much everyone here as falling under that umbrella to different degrees.

Also, before I lose people in the minutia of my response to the video can I please once again point out that MAGA is coming from wealthy whites who want to shift their tax burdens onto the backs of the poor and middle class? Can we all agree that it benefits the wealthy to have a culture war where whites and blacks cast blame at each other? Can we all just take a moment to see that the wealthy elite class has always had a reason to, not necessarily be racist themselves, but to promote racism and racial divisions because it helps to cast the fog of war that disguises CLASS WARFARE. And it is this campaign... to "make America great again" that is being used to justify and support the wealthy elite being given more of America's wealth than ever before as if the rest of us were never part of their success and as if we should be lucky if any of their wealth trickles down to us.

The Video:

I love how "I'm not racist" gets repeated. This was a good artistic choice because the whole argument and how it is received changes based on this question. What aggravated me a lot during the beginning of the video was how this "White guy" is talking to this black guy like he knows him and, by extension, me. While claiming not to be racist he picked several variables that HE THINKS are common to the black race. This ignores the scores of whites who use and sell drugs, who ignore or abandon their children, who cheat on their wives, who divide or disrupt their families, etc. There are a ton of them but they're simply not the SUBJECT of anyone's attention. Think about it. Black people should not have to defend the actions of poor black people or uneducated black people or black people who have mental health issues or black people who have addictions. Black people have certainly not stated that whites are a problem to society based on all the white drug dealers, white gun dealers, white mafia, white sex slavery, white prostitution, whites on welfare, etc. etc. We don't tie these things to a person's race or ethnicity. We tie them to their humanity. When we start saying "oh he cheated on the test because he's black" or "oh he stole millions from a charity because he's white" or "oh he has 3 mistresses because he's latin" this is based on ignorance. Black people don't do those things. White people don't do those things. PEOPLE do those things. And people just so happen to come in different shades and colors.

What they're trying to do is attack the color of the person by tying it to these things that they don't like in order to justify the fact that they just don't like the color or perhaps more broadly, people who LOOK different from them. Because they LOOK different it becomes easier to assume that they act different. But what you know is only the surface of how you view "those people". If you have a problem with black people you are less likely to have real black friends. I'm not talking about acquaintances or people you have met. Segregation was purposefully done in order to keep blacks and whites separate and this helped us to be able to ignore each other's problems, struggles, etc. Whenever black people crossed that like we were either smacked down, arrested, lynched, hung, etc. And if we fought back we were demonized, slandered, chased out, etc. My best friend's father was driven out of the south by whites who threatened to kill him over an altercation he had where he mistakenly used the wrong bathroom. The guy he fought in the bathroom didn't have to push him or disrespect him. It wasn't his job to enforce any rules or jim crow laws. He did it because, like a LOT of whites, he simply hated black people.

When we say "White Supremacy" a lot of white people get offended because they don't feel personally responsible. They were just born white just like I was born black. And so... I think... they start feeling upset by implication that they are somehow a part of this group of whites who they ethically and morally disagree with to their very core. And at some point they start pushing back against those feelings and those ideas out of a defensive position of not being able to accept that identity as part of who they are. And in that effort they look for blame and they start saying things like "blacks do this" and "blacks do that" and what about this or what about that? Deflections mostly. While I can understand these deflections while you're deflecting your not accepting any responsibility for the current state of the world in which you live. You didn't live back during slavery. You didn't whip anyone. You didn't call the police on runaway slaves. You didn't fight for state's rights to buy and sell slaves. You didn't separate millions of people from their families. You can't be guilty. But in that state of defending your own innocence many fail to see the feelings behind those accusations of racism and the CURRENT state of white supremacy and all the whites who are being defended and protected by this backlash... this counter protest.

When Donald Trump announced that he was recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel do you think he was fully aware of what he was doing? Or do you think he just didn't care about the results or consequences as long as someone told him that's what "We" should do? What does the rest of the world see? Does it see the US throwing its weight around in spite of the lives of actual people? When Trump rejected climate change was that a recognition of the lives of his great grandchildren and what kind of world they would inherit? I bring these things up because people don't seem to realize their own power or how it's felt until it's too late. People have a tendency to be selfish and to think about how their life affects their life. The problem is that in a world ruled by majority rule the minorities have to be protected too-precisely because they don't have the power to look out for themselves. They can't make rules to stop themselves from being exploited just like slaves could not make laws to end lynchings or give them the freedom to drink from any public water fountain. Some of the most basic freedoms and human dignity that whites have had in this country since the beginning were systematically denied to others. So when those minorities struggle, part of that struggle is because they were denied. Part of that struggle is a result of being disadvantaged and judged by stereotypes. When those minorities hate you. It's because of what you, via your majority rule, allowed to happen to them and still allow to happen to them. But at the same time what they don't understand is that, as much as whites want to unify black people through a bunch of negative stereotypes, whites are not unified through a bunch of positive stereotypes.

A lot of people don't spend time thinking about the negative consequences of their actions. However, people who live the results of those decisions have more than enough time to reflect on their condition and all of the causal agents. Those affected by climate change don't have to guess at whether or not it exists. Those affected by racism too... are not imagining it. It's not a question whether or not white supremacy exists. Just because there are no meetings and you're not in on a conspiracy doesn't mean that white people in roles of power never abuse their power according to their own bias and prejudice. Look at the #MeToo movement. This is about powerful people abusing their position and exposing their sexual deviancy in the process. Do you really think whites would simply never exploit their position over blacks in the job market when most corporations and businesses are white owned? And when it comes to the "War on Drugs" is it unreasonable that police officers who are in positions of power would exploit that power based on their own beliefs? Racists want to believe that its "people of color" behind all the drugs. Why? Because whites not only control the law and what's legal but they also have big pharmaceutical corporations that lobby politicians. These drugs are worst than street drugs in my opinion because they're addictive and expensive. But since they're legal no one thinks of the sellers of these drugs as bad people. The responsibility is pushed to the buyer. Buyer Beware.

Making America Great Again is about blaming all the problems of America on people who do not share the old white culture's norms and "values". I have to put that in quotes because many people who boast about these values hide their sins. They feel superior and justifiably so attacking homosexuality while they do their own sins in secret. Yes, the bible calls homosexuality an abomination in the same breath as bestiality. However, it also says that "lying lips are an abomination to YHWH". So if you're saying you don't even know the women you molested that's also behavior that is hateful by your God and should not be tolerated by their religion. White supremacy is not a conspiracy. It's a shared point of view; a culturally influenced perspective that gives preference and privilege to other whites over blacks and latinos. Not every white person is infected with this perspective but it's enough that it could elect a president which is more than enough to make millions of black lives that much more difficult. Black Lives Matter. It doesn't mean white lives don't. White lives are never in question. The police officer already knows his own life matters. He doesn't need to be told or reminded. He's going to shoot you if he thinks his life is in danger. So this statement gets twisted by people who don't want to understand and who don't want to look at other whites who may be doing wrong simply because they're white too and don't want to be guilty by association. It wasn't so long ago that black people were slaves merely by the same association so one shouldn't expect black people to be the most sensitive to the plight of white people not to be associated with racism. It is only when whites claim responsibility for racism and see, as a majority, that this is bad and that the lives of all people (including black people) are equal, only then will whites, as a race, be free of racism and white supremacy.

There is plenty of types of discrimination, they are not limited to 'race', but the most relevant thing is most of them seem to be as entirely devastating as other each can be, to the individual. I think this is the base reason why people take an equality approach to dealing with discrimination, because it does not pretend that any one type of discrimination is more hurtful or important then the others and does not pretend to know the suffering of others.
It might not be ideal for any one discriminated group for an approach not to focus on them alone, but it is fairer to all victims of discrimination - which is why it tends to be the organizational and policy approach.
And so its exactly that I think what is mostly being complained about with BLM and/or supporters - if/when they venture into asserting discrimination themselves in prioritizing their focus of being discriminated against. At least that is the main weakness I've seen from a distant casual observer - from the point of view that it would interfere with the positive intentions they seem to have ie its not a problem for me, but it is probably a problem for them and because they don't seem to realize it that it then makes it a problem for others, usually. Obviously there are lots of issues and serious problems with other groups in the way they deal with their perception of problems as well..

If that's why people are criticizing BLM then I think that's dangerous. I think it's easy to make this false equivalencies where people like Trump might say there are fine people on both sides. Each side believes in their side. Each party believes in their party. And in many cases people are incited politically by engineered misunderstandings. And by that I mean, bad actors instigating hostility.

Let's say you were a doctor and I came to you complaining about my stomach. "Doc, my stomach is in a lot of pain. What can we do?" If you say, "why are you complaining about your stomach? My stomach hurts too. If you're not going to complain about my health then why should I care about yours?"

Does that make any sense to you? Should that person even be a doctor? I think we can all agree that doctors get paid to take care of the health problems of their patients. When BLM protests they're not protesting white people. They're not protesting against white people. They're protesting against police departments often getting away with murdering black people. And innocent or not, in the justice system a person is innocent until proven guilty and have constitutional rights. When a cop plays judge jury and executioner he's not being a cop and not serving the people. He is rather a rogue agent who is using his badge to do evil against the people and should be stopped. Because he's doing it in the name of the people then the people are responsible for holding him accountable.

So if black people have a problem and they're protesting something specific, what sense does it make to protest their protest because some instigator is saying that they're not being inclusive enough? I apologize for being crass but that's bullshit. It's not even political correctness gone wrong, because the people opposing it are generally right wing republicans. FOX news perpetually opposes BLM while the left doesn't. Is it because FOX news is seeing something left wing outlets are not? Or is it because they're putting a political spin on it in order to instigate and deny the allegations made by the protest. In other words, if your stomach hurts, we don't care. We're the ones punching you in the gut. This is essentially what society is telling black people.

And not only that. Let's go ahead and double down by finding fault and putting more political spin on a different protest. This time, they're black but they're not BLM. Black NFL players silently protest by kneeling. The first one started by sitting but a white teammate who was former military advised him to kneel instead to honor the troops. He didn't keep sitting after that. He knelt... to honor the troops. He did this because his protest wasn't about the troops or all the good people who work in the military or in law enforcement. He was protesting excessive force and police brutality. But again.... here comes FOX news and the right wing to politically spin his actions as saying something he never said in order to mislead their own people and their own party, hyping them up against these black players and touching upon the hidden racist sentiments they already had. Why do I say this? Because suddenly these Americans start talking about how much money these "black" athletes were making as if they shouldn't complain because of that. Do you know that's like telling the house negro that he shouldn't complain because he should feel lucky and privileged not to be working in the field?? No matter how much better you treat that slave he's still a slave and he still has family and friends that work in the field. They are still HIS PEOPLE. When Moses (fictional character/story or not) returned to Egypt to tell Pharaoh to "Let my people go!" he wasn't a slave and didn't share their experience. He was a "Prince of Egypt". He was raised in the palace, educated in the palace. But he killed (murdered) an overseer because he saw it as wrong and wrong being done to his people. This Christians on the right... they know this story. But for some reason they cannot apply it to black people even though I could argue that everyone in the story, including Moses, was black. And this is my biggest pet peeve against the bible. If something bad was done to them ("God's people") then it was wrong and ugly and sinful. But if they did it to others it was okay and the will of God. People attacking BLM act the same way. "How dare you uppity negros complain with all the money we're giving you?" Really? I didn't know the NFL was a charity. Instead, the games they play are internationally consumed products that are priced according to supply and demand and they're paid accordingly. And if it wasn't for them playing these games all the other people, including team owners, doctors, physical therapists, down to the janitors that clean the stadiums would be SOL. Anything less would be wrong. People want to be free and not see their people suffering. They do NOT need to be inclusive of the people causing them to suffer. During the holocaust I don't think the Jews were that worried about blond Germans on their way to gas chambers. Those who have the power don't need to be included in the protest because they're the ones with the power to fix it without protest. Protest only gets awareness from the majority. If the majority understand that the problem affects them then FIX THE DAMN PROBLEM. But no... they only wanted to be included as a means of counter-protest to justify NOT fixing the problem. This is why there is no organization called White Lives Matter Too or All Lives Matter. These organizations do not exist because they were never serious arguments. They were only counter arguments to protect the corrupt system that allows cops to do the very thing BLM and NFL players are protesting.

And as far as equating suffering? Slaves were whipped until their flesh came off, raped, murdered, sold and separated from family, auctioned naked, killed in mass, denied education, locked up in mass, had towns destroyed by white rioters, etc. etc. with effects and consequences still in effect. Slavery in America lasted over 200 years. That's how long black people were terrorized by white people. Black people haven't even been free for that long. And on top of that, unlike white settlers who got land for free, we have never received reparations (like the natives in America or Canada) even though we were supposed to get "40 acres and a mule". So there is nothing equal about anything and nothing in our history that is equivalent to that in our view. And when people act like it's not a big deal it rubs salt in those wounds and, to us, smacks as a barely human response. And this is the reason why there are black groups who question the morality and even humanity of whites. How can one group of people do so many horrible things to another group and not even care? And then individuals hide behind the majority to escape responsibility for the things this democracy does. Meanwhile, they can't or don't want to answer the question of why the majority makes these decisions. They simply don't want to be responsible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ7x4C-HtKg

ZealotX wrote: If that's why people are criticizing BLM then I think that's dangerous. I think it's easy to make this false equivalencies where people like Trump might say there are fine people on both sides. Each side believes in their side. Each party believes in their party. And in many cases people are incited politically by engineered misunderstandings. And by that I mean, bad actors instigating hostility.

If your answering my post, do you mean the other side is equality!? For if someone is going to assert systematic or organizational discrimination then it needs to exist in a more tangible way then being even endemic in it's occurrence. In military targeting decision are understood as being necessary, action as proportionate and effects discriminate and what I am talking about here is being discriminate in blame (the opposite being popularly understood as discrimination). What seems to be happening is BLM supporters are arguing some necessity fairly, but as a movement seem to be losing all that ground (valid position) by the existence of questionable proportionality in fixing the problem, and questionable discrimination of who is to blame for the problem, from some parts if not officially.

ZealotX wrote: Let's say you were a doctor and I came to you complaining about my stomach. "Doc, my stomach is in a lot of pain. What can we do?" If you say, "why are you complaining about your stomach? My stomach hurts too. If you're not going to complain about my health then why should I care about yours?"

Does that make any sense to you? Should that person even be a doctor? I think we can all agree that doctors get paid to take care of the health problems of their patients. When BLM protests they're not protesting white people. They're not protesting against white people. They're protesting against police departments often getting away with murdering black people. And innocent or not, in the justice system a person is innocent until proven guilty and have constitutional rights. When a cop plays judge jury and executioner he's not being a cop and not serving the people. He is rather a rogue agent who is using his badge to do evil against the people and should be stopped. Because he's doing it in the name of the people then the people are responsible for holding him accountable.

I'm not talking about what is right with BLM, I am talking about what is wrong, IMO. I don't think anyone here is saying anyone cannot protest or complain, but rather the problems might be in the how. That advice might be helpful, hopefully...
But yea, of course the Doctor analogy makes no sense to me either, but because it seems unrelated to my point ~ I think it would be more like a patient blaming the doctor for the stomach pain because the doctor agrees its there but cannot do anything about it. But again, I was only referencing that which I saw at fault with BLM, not that which I support of BLM.

Do black lives matter? If so to whom do they matter? Do they matter to blacks themselves? Somewhere along the way here we took a turn that were I some snowflake SJW I would find disturbing. This turn is in the form of whiteness and the perceived evils that it holds dear. I call for the Oscar Mayer award as this is all baloney and excuses for behavior and actions that are not in the least civilized. I do not come by my convictions from news media or even the words of others but by half a century of personal observation. I will give some historical experiences.

My very first experience with blacks, or should I refer to them as the oppressed victims, was at a very young age. I was around seven years old and up to this point I had never seen a black. My neighborhood was all white and the grade school just two blocks away was all white. This was in the early seventies mind you. After passing first grade my parents were informed that I would be bused clear across the city, the ride was an hour each way, to an all black neighborhood to an all black school. I do not remember feeling anything negative about this at the time but it was then that my parents gave me the "Talk" as it is being referred to now by blacks. I have to say my parents were quite moderate and I have to this day not found any fault in their beliefs. First day of school rolls around and I find myself in what could only be called a madhouse. The teacher has not yet appeared. The young victim in front of me turns around and asks me if I know what an "aura" is. I reply in the negative for which he again asks me the same question. This boys command of the English language is quite difficult to define. Finally he gives me a look as if I was some kind of idiot and says "You don't even know the alphabet?" AH! So now I have a clue. "Oh, you mean an R." "Yeah, an aura." After this encounter the young victim leaves his desk and climbs out the second story window and walks along the edge outside. In those days in Texas we did not have air conditioning in the Summer so the windows were often open. Just as he climbs back in the teacher enters the room. The scene I witnessed has stuck with me my whole life. Correction was swift, immediate and violent. The teacher snatched this young boy up to the front of the classroom and commenced to whooping him with a leather belt. Needless to say I had never witnessed such a thing and my jaw must have made a loud crack as it hit the floor, not that it could be heard above the never ending noise that the black students kept up constantly. I would soon discover that this scenario was quite common, no less than half a dozen incidents a day in just that one class. Where I came from they just sent you to the office to be paddled but I suppose that in this environment that would just overwhelm the principal. I also noticed that this swift and violent punishment was a necessity in keeping order in the classroom. I made no friends at this school and all of us oppressor children just stayed to ourselves. By the way in those days we were not called Caucasian but Anglo Saxon, this correctly applies to me as I have made extensive strides in my genealogical history.

Forward many years into my early twenties, I have a black girlfriend which I lived with for eleven years. She grew up with a Catholic school education and spoke perfect English. She had a sister that though did not share the same education also spoke perfect English. She had three children, two girls and one boy, all speaking perfect English and this in spite of the fact that she raised them in some housing projects in Dallas. These children excelled in their public education and have all gone on the graduate college and pursuing successful careers. I do not refer to these people as victims because they are not, they did not believe they were and they did not act as if they were. I have the utmost respect for what this woman did for her children in raising them to be human beings and not the garbage that has come to be identified as black culture.

It was during one of our trips to Dallas to visit that we come upon an intersection where several young black men in suits were selling some kind of newspaper. My girlfriend purchased one and just threw it in the back seat. Being always curious, reading everything, I found myself exposed for the first time to racial nationalism. These young men were members of the Nation of Islam. The information I received that day has also stayed with me. Regardless of the racism in their organization they were sincere in changing their neighborhoods and the state of their people for the good. They did this by starting with themselves and working out from that. I hold those young men I saw that day in great respect. By the way, they also spoke English well and I can find no reason other than defiance to not speak English well.

Again many years later to present day I have moved from a predominately all white neighborhood into another city that is much more "diverse" I believe the term to be. I observed truths that cannot be learned without the use of your own senses. Not two days in this new city my wife was threatened in a convenience store parking lot by a victim with a gun. Okay, its just a new place, need to learn the terrain. I have lived here just under two years and these behaviors are common. Just watching victims walking around looking and acting very suspicious, their inability to follow the most basic of police commands, the defiance and refusal to act in a civil manner has left a mark on me that I wish was not so. Parking lots are dangerous and on one occasion I was forced to indeed make a victim of some poor oppressed soul who wished me harm because I was white. All this forces me to look at blacks as potential assailants. If it is not violence they offer then it is some kind of con. This is the reality of the city where I live.

The point I make is that I reject the oppressed victim excuse. You choose to be what and who you are and change can only start within your own house. Protests are meaningless in and of themselves. What are you doing to change the situation? What are all these millionaire ball players doing to change things? Are they going into the black neighborhoods and mentoring, being a real role model for young black people? Are these people in these neighborhoods making an effort to change? Why are many black neighborhoods covered in bars, on the windows and doors? Are they afraid that white people will come in and rape, rob and murder them in their sleep? Why do many convenience stores enclose their clerks behind bullet proof glass, are they afraid that some evil white person may shoot and rob them? The horror I should feel were that so. But it is not. I do not feel guilt, shame or self hatred. Yes I enjoy privilege but you know what that privilege is? Two small insignificant examples, there are two convenience stores near me, when my wife and I walk into either one we are greeted with big smiles and kind words. The owners of these stores treat us differently than they treat their victim clientele, but why? Here is why, most whites are civil and polite, most blacks are not. They also argue over prices, over how much change is going back and forth and of course the ever present con game. I have stood in line for several minutes witnessing such nonsense. I liken this to school children. There is a pharmacy in the neighborhood next to a school. On the front doors are signs stating that students are not allowed inside without adult supervision. Other stores restrict the number of students allowed in at one time. Is this discrimination against school children? Perhaps, but there is a very good reason for this, these children steal and destroy. If one group of people is known to behave in a certain way then they will be treated in a certain way.

So do black lives matter? Only if they matter enough to the oppressed victims to want to make real change without the excuses of evil whitey and his gigantic institutions of racial oppression. If you do not even care about yourselves enough to change, when you act like savages rioting and burning your own communities how can you expect anyone else to care.