The Problem with Black Lives Matter

Are you posting these demands to make BLM sound extremist?

I can understand why someone might have a kneejerk reaction to some of these points but you need to read to see the logic behind the demand and understand why it isn't crazy.

At the same time, demands are typically negotiated. Which means if you're making demands it's better to shoot for the moon so you can compromise somewhere in the middle.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)

With all due respect, I don't think the actual demand is presented as you describe. There is no debt forgiveness, for example, that I saw. It's talking about how higher education produces debt. We live in a society where the cost of higher education is much higher than it needs to be. It's artificially inflated and many schools are much more expensive seemingly as a means of keeping out the lower class. Imo, this is not necessarily racist but rather discrimination based on class.

Also, UBI (universal basic income), is not a new concept but it is untested. Finland is not a good example as explained in this article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/opinion/finland-universal-basic-income.html

The idea, if done right, would effectively end poverty. At the same time, great minds like Elon Musk (a personal hero of mine), said that automation would force universal income. I fully appreciate that the idea seems ridiculous now. We're used to very slow change even though Trump was voted in to create radical change that would benefit his base (low income whites). But such a radical solution for low income blacks would be crazy. Trust me, black people already know reparations will never happen. That's why I think the goal is to try to push more for education, similar to what Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein proposed.

Universal basic income (UBI) is becoming respectable. Less than a decade ago, its principal supporters were weed-smoking hippies and Star Trek aficionados: “serious people” either laughed or sneered at it. But now, it counts among its supporters a growing number of top economists, entrepreneurs and financiers. Governments around the world are evaluating its use, and some are embarking on pilot studies. Businesses are partnering with not-for-profit organizations to conduct serious research into the costs and benefits of UBI.

And now, the IMF has joined the party. In its latest Fiscal Monitor, it says UBI could reduce income inequality and protect people affected by technological change and globalization.

Additionally, as I may get into later, these things could be paid for by taking money out of the judicial system. Crime and poverty are closely related.

2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.

The Vera Institute of Justice released a study in 2012 that found the aggregate cost of prisons in 2010 in the 40 states that participated was $39 billion. The annual average taxpayer cost in these states was $31,286 per inmate. New York State was the most expensive, with an average cost of $60,000 per prison inmate.

One of my favorite reggae artists said this in a song. Please listen to the words. We can have a conversation about excuses afterwards if you want, but right now, I just want you to hear him speaking for the poor and the powerless so you can understand where a lot of the crime comes from and understand that if you solve these problems you wouldn't need so many jails and prisons. In NY it costs $60,000 per prison inmate. I'm not saying we don't need these things at all. What I'm suggesting is that we're investing in the wrong way. But the reason we invest in incarceration is because it makes money for private investors.

Bounty Killa...

Look into my eyes, tell me what you see?
Can you feel my pain? am I your enemy?
Give us a better way, things are really bad,
The only friend I know is this gun I have.
Listen to my voice, this is not a threat
Now you see the nine are you worried yet?
You've been talking 'bout' you want the war to cease
But when you show us hope, we will show you peace.

Verse 1

Look into my mind, can you see the wealth?
Can you tell that I want to help myself?
But if it happen that I stick you for your ring
Don't be mad at me it's a survival ting.
Look into my heart, I can feel your fear
Take another look can you hold my stare?
Why are you afraid of my hungry face?
Or is it this thing bulging in my waist?

Chorus

Verse 2

Look into my life, can you see my kids?
Let me ask you this,do you know what hungry is?
Well in this part of town, survival is my will
For you to stay alive you've got to rob and kill.
Look into my house would you live in there?
Look me in the eyes and tell me that you care,
Well I've made up my mind to end up in the morgue
Right now I'd rather die, cause man a live like dog.

Look down on my shoes, can you see my toes?
The struggle that we live nobody really knows
Stop and ask yourself, would you live like that?
and if you had to then, wouldn't you bus gun shot?
Look into the schools, tell me how you feel?
You want the kids to learn without a proper meal
Den what you have in place to keep them out of wrong?
If they drop out of school dem a go bus dem gun.


Look, I can never advocate criminal activity. However, what I can stress to you is that we are products largely of our environment. One of our esteemed members talked about getting off the bus at the wrong stop, in the wrong part of town, and being prepared to kill in order to defend himself. That sounds crazy to me but I can empathize with his situation. He pulled out a gun to scare people away who we do not know what they would have done to him. I chastised him a bit over his willingness to kill. Maybe I shouldn't have. However, when I think about the people who grow up there, who see violence everyday, who see a system where the powerful seem to be protected, where safety means being part of a gang, and when your opportunities are limited by your education... it should remove all surprise that many of these youth are also willing to kill. No one seems to cares about them. And eventually, they stop caring about themselves.

And all I'm saying is that we need real solutions to the ROOT CAUSE, which is poverty caused by a lack of access to capital and a lack of access to education (ACCESS & OPPORTUNITY) instead of pumping more and more money into dealing with the SYMPTOMS of drugs and gang violence. Why these solutions sound so crazy is because people think about the financial cost of helping people and for many people, it's too much and those people don't deserve it. How much are these lives worth?

How much do these lives matter?

As a black man, I have little to say on them as a group or movement since I don't necessarily participate. However, what I will say is this.

To any "____ Lives Matter" I would say "Life Matters" and in all its manifestations it should be treated with wisdom, love, and respect.

See me for the soul I am and the spirit I have. I am more than this crude matter we call flesh.

3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)

I know I just addressed this but it's really kind of the same thing. Most people have no idea how expensive it is to be poor. Not everyone has insurance. Not everyone has a degree. Not everyone has a name that sounds white. Many people start at a disadvantage that's hard, even for someone talented, to escape from. If you're exceptional, there's always a way out. If you're not... well... society just doesn't care as much. Let's be honest.

I would argue that ancient Egypt's military grew too large. What happens when your military force grows too large to sustain? Think about it. I get calls to donate to police. I happen to like my local police department. I even shared a video online of them arresting someone I know who was almost asking to be shot. They handled the situation which real heart. They could have done what other cops do... tackled him to the ground, sic their dog on him, beat him into submission, etc. Instead, the talked to him, one cop actually embraced him, and they treated him with dignity and respect even though he deserved very little. These are the same cops that will play basketball with kids at a community event. These are the kind of cops everyone needs.

But when there are too many cops and they're reacting to crime like an army... they're using military tactics. When they're needed they're needed. When the situation calls for it, then you should use the amount of force called for by the situation. But when they're not needed... then they're harassing citizens, prejudging people by racially profiling, and their jobs devolve into bringing in money by fulfilling quotas. At some point, a lot of capitalistic systems devolve into being more about money than people. And that's a huge problem.

When a person is locked up... maybe they are guilty... maybe they are innocent. But before we can even establish if a person did the crime or not, their life is interrupted by the arrest and if they can't afford to pay the bail for what the police are accusing them of, then they have to sit in jail possibly for weeks. I was in jail for nearly a week even though I had bail because this particular judge like to give out home detention like candy; meaning, until the court date I wasn't able to work, and with only 2 home detention officers for the entire jail, I had to wait until they could get to me and they only worked during business hours which means if you get arrested thursday or friday you may not get out until the next week. Why did I get arrested? I think it was driving with an expired license. I should have been able to pay a fee online and that'd be it. But no... my job was even calling hospitals trying to find me because to them, my disappearance.... and I kinda felt like I had just been kidnapped. I'm very loyal to my company because of how they handled this situation. They let me work from home while I was on home detention. And the owner of the company even offered me money if it would help. But I'm fortunate. I have a good job where I make good money. The guys I met in jail? Most people are in jail for FTA (failure to appear in court). Many of them would be back again and again because they didn't have the resources to get out or stay out. Many people would have lost their job, if they had one. And that interruption affects the family's survival. And believe me... a lot of judges and magistrates are like tax collectors. They spend hours and hours calling people up, telling them a fine, asking when they can pay, and then telling them to go pay court fees. It's a money sink and it affects African Americans disproportionately. In a 3 year span I probably spend $2500 in fines, mostly from overzealous officers. It could totally be a coincidence but after all the attention from BLM I felt like the police were paying less attention to me which is a great thing.

The reason why so many people have bad experiences with the police isn't because they're criminals getting what they deserve. For most, they are a CASH CROP, and the police have to harvest money out of the population in order to sustain themselves, judges, lawyers, etc. But we're justifying all the investment into the judicial system based on the idea that we have to lock so many people up. What if we were like other major civilized countries? What if we locked up fewer people? Then we could take all that money and use it on making sure there progressively less people to lock up. There is no greater investment to solve this problem than education. And housing. My fiance is a property manager. I would say, instead of putting so many low income people together in the same housing complexes, they need to be distributed to all apartments complexes so that they aren't socialized down a certain path; segregated into poor micro-communities. It's not about handouts. It's about common sense reform.

4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Woah.... I thought black people in the US were American?

secondly, this does sound pretty bad out of context.

Across the country, low-income people, disproportionately Black and other people of color, pay proportionally more in state and local taxes than the wealthy: In the ten states with the most regressive tax structures, the poorest fifth pay up to seven times as much in state and local taxes and fees as the wealthiest residents, as a percentage of their income.

So the context is that they believe African Americans are impacted more severely by taxation. Anytime you change the tax codes it means that more money will come from another group in order to alleviate the group you're trying to protect. The conservative approach is to protect wealthy Americans and Corporations. They idea is that they will, if only they had more money, create jobs. However, they also have a duty to return more money to their investors. And if they can make more money while using less people (which are a natural liability for a company) they certainly will. However, if you give the poorest Americans more money (more of their own money) they will consume more goods and services than rich people. These goods and services come from both the middle class and the rich so in that case everyone wins. On the other hand, currently, many wealthy people are able to hide their money and otherwise evade fair taxes. This is what I would call economic justice.

They also talk about breaking up big banks and other things that are not necessarily pro-black but rather, like most of their proposals, are policies that are supportive of the lower class.

Many people were against TPP and Trump killed it because doing so was popular with his base (again: lower class whites). Many people simply feel that these trade agreements benefit corporations but not necessarily the American workers. I only know bits and pieces about TPP so I wouldn't feel comfortable debating it. But they don't want to end all agreements but rather renegotiate (basically what Trump ran on) to prioritize American workers.

In contrast to the free money you're suggesting, what they're actually asking for is:

Financial support of Black alternative institutions including policy that subsidizes and offers low-interest, interest-free or federally guaranteed low-interest loans to promote the development of cooperatives (food, residential, etc.), land trusts and culturally responsive health infrastructures that serve the collective needs of our communities.

loans. Not grants.... but loans.

Over 26 federal agencies administer more than 1,000 grant programs annually to provide funding for the arts, educational institutions, agricultural projects and more.

We bailed out the auto industry under Obama and companies paid back those loans with interest. This demand is not for free grant money, but loans. Much of the financial difficulty of black communities was caused by the state. The state subsidizes a lot of exports to make them cheaper. It's not unheard of for the government to give money away if it is seen as an investment. Again... this demand is not for grants, but for loans.

5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)

during the height of the protests this was something I was advocating along with cameras.

https://policy.m4bl.org/community-control/

Context matters. I find it very offensive to equate the community with "the people being arrested" as if the entire community is one big crime family and we want to fire all the police so that there are no police at all.

What community control is actually about, if you read... is that communities should have some oversight and input into the behavior and policies of their local police forces. The problem with many police departments is that they have no consequences for their behavior. No one gets fired even though it should be obvious that not everyone with a badge is cut out for the job. If a police officer is so fearful that they're willing to shoot far more often than other people.... they're simply in the wrong profession. We're not spoiled kids who want to choose our own parents. We're grown ups who are thoughtful and who deserve to have a say in how we are protected and served. It's not like oversight doesn't already exist. There are over 200 agencies. But local police forces should report to their communities and be responsible to those communities disapproval. We are not the enemy. We should be partners. Police often ask us what happened or they ask us to testify. But because they have not been a partner to us and because they act like they're not part of our community, then we don't trust them to protect us. It's like 2 different agendas colliding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzjrIk05YyU

6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)

outlandish...

Where are you getting this from?

If you read the actual site it says:

1. An end to the criminalization of Black political activity including the immediate release of all political prisoners and an end to the repression of political parties.

2. Public financing of elections and the end of money controlling politics through ending super PACs and unchecked corporate donations.

3. Election protection, electoral expansion and the right to vote for all people including: full access, guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people through universal voter registration, automatic voter registration, pre-registration for 16-year-olds, same day voter registration, voting day holidays, Online Voter Registration (OVR), enfranchisement of formerly and presently incarcerated people, local and state resident voting for undocumented people, and a ban on any disenfranchisement laws.

4. Full access to technology including net neutrality and universal access to the internet without discrimination and full representation for all.

5. Protection and increased funding for Black institutions including Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU’s), Black media and cultural, political and social formations.

how do these things equate to black separatism??

I feel like you're twisting these points to make them sound crazy which is what people tend to do when attacking BLM. They tend to find something, misunderstand it, mischaracterize it, and then it is sold to others in a "fake news" fashion so that people who don't hear it directly, think that BLM is bad and that black people are un American which only makes racists feel justified.

Thank you Zealot, for breaking these down for us. I really appreciate the time and effort on your part.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

Lykeios, some people are always going to think you're racist. I'm simply not one of them. The feelings attached to slavery, attached to segregation, attached to jim crow, KKK, and all these other things that have consistently been unfair to black people, those feelings are strong. When we talk about slavery, it's not just a few people being forced to work. We're talking about families separated, women raped, castrations, humans bred like animals and sold naked on auction blocks, destroying their hands picking their quota of cotton so they would have their skin ripped off by a whip. We're talking about brutal conditions with forced ignorance. If you were caught learning to read you could be killed. We're talking about the worst conditions that African Americans can think of. And even after it was "over" we were mocked and ridiculed, called "boy" and "nigger", couldn't drink from the same fountains or use the same bathrooms, even spit on.

If someone you don't know... thinks you are a racist... and that makes you feel some kind of way... to the point where you are willing to do nothing to stand up for the rights of marginalized people again... then I don't know what to tell you. "Racist" is such a horrible word if you hate it. But if you're not a racist then you should endure it because the people you are standing up for have endured FAR FAR WORSE. And the only reason why there are black people who feel that way is because when they were hurting it seemed like just about every white person... didn't care. White people told us about Jesus and how he was beaten and abused for the sins of mankind and how we should all love him for that. Jesus said whatsoever you have done to the least of these, my brethren, you have done it also to me. But when the least of these are brown (as Jesus was) it seems like the vast majority of whites (therefore whites as a "collective") look the other way. And its because there aren't enough whites doing what is in their power to do, in this democracy, that it feels, to them, that whites are, generally, working together.

I am pissed off at the attitude I've seen from people I try to respect and support in their various struggles (African-American, "white", Hispanic, Asian, whoever they are). I can't do **** to change the "system" and if people are going to assume crap about me because of something I said (first off that I'm "caucasian") then, like I said, count me out.

You're wrong. Whites are the ONLY ONES who can change the system. All black people can do is protest, to call your attention to what needs to be changed. We live in a democracy. Whites are the majority. Therefore the system benefits them. It's that simple. And if whites (again in general) wanted it to change, they would change it. That's how people see democracy. Is it more complicated than that? Yes. Does money play a huge role? Absolutely.

But when black people get attacked for protesting...

When there is no protest we can do that is acceptable...

When so many years have gone by without significant change on the issue...

When the confederate flag is waved in our faces and we still get called "nigger"...

When Dylan Roof shoots up a church full of black people because he wanted to start a race war and the cops bought him food from Burger King.

When a black man can still get dragged to death behind a truck...

It just doesn't seem like America is ready to let go of racism or even recognize its hatred towards black people motivated by the color of our skin. The whole point of these conversations is trigger an empathetic response that is larger than your own ego so you can actually DO SOMETHING. American soldiers fight to the death for America and what it represents to them. Black soldiers fight side by side with white soldiers. One of the things the black soldiers fight for is liberty and justice, not for the majority, but for all. That's something worth fighting for whether you get called a racist or whether I get called a "nigger". At some point we have see this as an American problem.

Part of the problem is institutional. You can't change that by yourself but if you are one of many, you CAN. (Yes... you can)
Part of the problem is social. You can't change that by yourself either but if you are one of many, you CAN.

When a white person expresses racist attitudes, and the worst I've ever seen was in videogames because of anonymity, their views are either accepted, ordained, rejected, coddled, or ignored. If you hear another white person saying something racially insensitive, you don't have to start a fight. Just say... "hey, man, that's not cool." You may never get that opportunity. But if you do, just say that. Why? Because racism is like a virus. It's spreads socially. Your reaction to racist views is what allows racist views to spread. People who spread hate aren't afraid of the consequences because for most... there are none. It is only when the next generation cannot spread hate that hate will die with them and the people will get jobs based on merit, education and healthcare based on human rights, etc.

@Adder

Your posts are, in general, excellent, and this is no exception.

That is no excuse, for then its just sloppy speech and misleading, if its not intended to be racist. It might not experienced as racist by the offender because they are not the victim of the 'slop', but it can be taken as racist by those that are. Defeating racism is everyones responsibility. If a side to a racist argument discard the same thing they demand they become not only hypocrits, but as part of their own problem because they will be inflaming a response in kind. Don't give into it, be better then them, and certainly don''t do the same thing to spread it further as that is akin to working 'for' the racists on the other side!!

I feel where you're coming from. All I can tell you is that many of my people are using emotions instead of logic. They're not in the same position to analyze the situation and all contributing variables the way any of us would like them to. And there will be mistakes. For example... Malcolm X. I wish he'd never accepted membership in the Nation of Islam but that's how he became who he was. It wasn't white people who reached out to him and gave him a sense of empowerment. It was the NOI. So his views were more radical because of his experience. But his experience was personal. I think the NOI is similar to the KKK in certain ways because their views are socialized but there is a positive side to having those connections, as with any social club.

It is important to understand that black people have been reactionary since we arrived because we have been systematically subject to whims and impulses of whites. After everything that black people suffered through it isn't reasonable to expect every black person to be patient for a hundred years while white people evolve beyond their racist past. So what you're left with is different degrees of hope, different degrees of bitterness, etc. I couldn't agree more with you that this is everyone's responsibility but if you're bullying someone in school the person with the greatest responsibility to stop the bullying is... the bully. If the person being bullied grows to hate you in the meantime what can you really truly expect? Not you, but it seems like some other whites have this strange expectation that black people should patiently wait until the day that white people are ready to stop being racists and stop treating them like garbage. My fiance recently suffered because of racism in her job. And even though customers experienced the racism too the racist was promoted when they should have been fired. Why? Kind of reminds me of Weinstein's company covering up his misconduct. You'd be surprised how much racism exists without any checks and balances.

This is where black nationalism grows out of. It grows out of a status quo position of inferior political and economic power that constructs a need to help ourselves in all the ways that the larger society keeps us down. For example... its well known to us but not necessarily to whites, that it can be incredibly difficult for us to get loans. Institutions tend to find justifications for saying no. In fact, it's easier for Indians coming from overseas to get loans so they can start businesses. And when other minority groups come here they tend to practice group economics. Black people don't. We hesitate to work together because of integration and yet integration doesn't go far enough to protect our survival. We're in an uncomfortable situation, being dependent on social acceptance for jobs, but also being denied so often that it really underscores the need to create our own jobs. But a lot of these people don't hate whites at all; disappointed maybe. Instead, they simply see the lack of help as a sign that we need to do more if not everything or ourselves. And many of them are so tired of waiting for help that never seems to come that they're basically just unwilling to simply keep waiting as if we're waiting for the second coming. There are no excuses for bad behavior but if we don't understand the source/cause then we'll simply react to each other ad infinitum.

Again with accuracy, you're right but I think you're giving too much credit to the critics. I think if a rape victim is having a moment of clarity they might reflect on mistakes they made or things they could have done better but at the end of the day THEY WERE RAPED! And when people interview them and question them, seemingly more curious about their mistakes or more vocal about criticizing what they were wearing or how late it was or how intoxicated they were, even if some of what they say is true and even if some points are accurate, it does not excuse the rapist. But in this society things like this help rapists go free because what do you do when someone is saying you did something wrong? You either accept it and pay the penalty, or you plead not guilty and attack their credibility. In a courtroom the prosecution is interested in what the offender did wrong, not what the victim did wrong. The defense questions the victim trying to prove their client is either innocent or appeal to their peers to try to get that person off. And you know how defense attorneys manipulate juries. What we have is the court of public opinion. Can you deny that questioning BLM can be perceived as being defensive? Shouldn't our focus be on bad cops? When the focus is shifted to BLM which "side" does that tend to favor? During the Occupy Wall Street movement they were protesting the 1% and they were, imo, right. But what happened? The media started attacking them (all) based on the actions of a few as if they could control the behavior of all those people. Eventually those attacks tore away at the credibility of OWS until it had no influence. Corporations didn't really need to react because the victim was successfully shamed. What I'm suggesting to you, isn't that facts don't matter and accuracy isn't important. What I'm suggesting is that this is how the other side fights back. They attack you politically so that your political attacks become toothless. Do you think BLM is going to change their policies based on TOJO conversations? Of course not. So these conversations help to shield the police and aid and abet their crimes by effectively silencing their opponents. Because if they cannot shut you up they'll instead make other stop listening and that's what they're doing to BLM just as they successfully did with OWS. And now... the same problem OWS was protesting still exists and what's being done about it? Nothing. So accuracy can be used as a tool of political science, just like "fake news" was effectively used in the last election.

The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

White supremacy, and any other form of supremacy, cannot exist without a system of supremacy. Where those in power nearly have, if not completely, direct control of people and their actions.

It's the reason why we even have a drug war that supports the prison-industrial-complex. When, as I said, you have a right to self. Including what you take into yourself. That's one part of the problem..

Racism is a moral issue that can't be dealt with using force. Systematic oppression, of the less influential, is an issue that can be done with easily.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

I have to respectfully disagree. I think seeing the individual without respect for collective is essentially the same as missing the forest for the trees.

The relationship one has to one's family, for instance, is similar to every organism's relation to those members of their species who aid in their survival.

And indeed... my offspring are also part of myself that I leave in the world even after I'm gone.

The connection to the whole is the proof that we are more than just the sum of our individual parts.

Humanity must see humanity, not just humans.

The problem is that we've lost our greater identity because of individualism. Every organism increases its power when part of a group. Individual cells are meaningless without identifying with organs. It is in relationship to the collective that we derive roles and responsibilities.

White people should be proud of their collective accomplishments. Black people should be proud of theirs. But when we come together we should be proud of white accomplishments and black accomplishments. We should help each other, strengthen each other, mourn the loss of each other, love each other. It took a lot for me to get here. People died so I could get here. Black people and white people sacrificed so that we could be here together. We should not throw that away. It's not about stripping something away from ourselves we don't think is good or working. It's about learning to accept all of ourselves.

If someone desires to be superior over another group they can also feel superior over other individuals and already do. And if they working for supremacy as a group then no way would they simply give up that group that gives them an advantage. Things are always easy if people would simply do what we want them to do. But they won't because they're acting in their own self-interest, not the interest of other individuals or the communities they belong to. Cells that act in their own self-interest without regard to the collective body of which they are residents are, by definition, cancer.

I'm proud to be black because being black isn't easy. I'm simply also proud to be an American (I wasn't always). I'm proud to be a man. And more than that I am proud to be human. We must embrace all levels of our existence because they (being environmental constructs) all relate back to who you are: strengths, weaknesses, benefits, liabilities, advantages, challenges, and all experiences in between. If a person cannot respect the fact that I am black (blackness is a man-made concept but so is 'animal' and 'person') then they cannot accept me as an individual, be they white, black, or other.

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: White supremacy, and any other form of supremacy, cannot exist without a system of supremacy. Where those in power nearly have, if not completely, direct control of people and their actions.

It's the reason why we even have a drug war that supports the prison-industrial-complex. When, as I said, you have a right to self. Including what you take into yourself. That's one part of the problem..

Racism is a moral issue that can't be dealt with using force. Systematic oppression, of the less influential, is an issue that can be done with easily.

Systems are created to increase efficiency and power. They tend to grow over time. The problem is the system in question is a governing system. If it were outside the government I would suggest a competing system. Because the systems of government are co opted by those seeking power and because "some" of those seeking power are racist, parts of the system are "hacked", if you will, and those parts become racist. After all, if a hacker compromises your computer with a virus your computer will behave in a manner the virus dictates. Even other systems within your operating system end up serving the virus if they were designed to serve the parts of the system infected.

This is what makes racism systemic/systematic.

When black people say "white people", it depends on the context. If the context is racism then what we're saying is that white people are like a computer that has been infiltrated and taken over by racist hackers to the extent that vital parts of the system represent and serve their interests. But their computer doesn't have anti-virus software. It can't simply delete the virus, which is in very deep, but it can create rules that all programs, infected and non-infected, have to go through to detect the virus whenever the rules are broken. Once you detect the virus you must quarantine the virus and restrict its access.

What BLM was attempting to do is point and say "the virus is here! the virus is right over here!"

But instead of attacking the virus the system attacks the programs being affected by the virus. It attacks them for identifying the virus and urging a response from the entire system. In what possible scenario would I ignore the virus as the cause of the attack on the programs? Modern viruses protect themselves and adapt to removal methods. What we're dealing with is "Social Hacking" (a legitimate form of hacking). and credibility is like currency. If the virus can take away your credibility then you become powerless to stop it. Only the virus would want to take away your ability to stop it. ONLY THE VIRUS. And if the computer isn't attacking the virus it is because it is being operated and influenced by the virus.

All you can do to a virus is to try to outsmart the virus, recognize what it is, clean infected files and inoculate clean files. If there are thousands or millions of files, so be it. Because the only other solution is reinstall your operating system and possibly delete every file that could reinfect it. Cleaning those files is hard because while you think the virus is done, the virus is always working. The virus is always using the system to infect more files.

As long as it serves a purpose the virus will remain under the control of those who benefit from the virus.

ZealotX wrote:

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: The real problem is people seeing things through these collective identities. Black, white, whichever, they're not who we are as beings. We're deeper than what's on this surface level we call the world.

We're individual sentient beings first. Equal in composition, even if not in development. We all have the equal right to self, to what belongs to self, what you freely align to self, and to preserve those things, and others, including self. It's not just an idea. It's a deep part of our nature. Part of who we are..

We keep attacking each other as tribes instead of respecting each other as individuals. I believe majority of the world's problems would be solved if we could just do that. The rest will when law upholds that respect. I believe The Force wills us to uphold the respect for life. Natural, supernatural, and sentient life.. and to twist it, wound it, consume it, for our own will is the practice of dark arts.

I have to respectfully disagree. I think seeing the individual without respect for collective is essentially the same as missing the forest for the trees.

The relationship one has to one's family, for instance, is similar to every organism's relation to those members of their species who aid in their survival.

And indeed... my offspring are also part of myself that I leave in the world even after I'm gone.

The connection to the whole is the proof that we are more than just the sum of our individual parts.

Humanity must see humanity, not just humans.

The problem is that we've lost our greater identity because of individualism. Every organism increases its power when part of a group. Individual cells are meaningless without identifying with organs. It is in relationship to the collective that we derive roles and responsibilities.

White people should be proud of their collective accomplishments. Black people should be proud of theirs. But when we come together we should be proud of white accomplishments and black accomplishments. We should help each other, strengthen each other, mourn the loss of each other, love each other. It took a lot for me to get here. People died so I could get here. Black people and white people sacrificed so that we could be here together. We should not throw that away. It's not about stripping something away from ourselves we don't think is good or working. It's about learning to accept all of ourselves.

If someone desires to be superior over another group they can also feel superior over other individuals and already do. And if they working for supremacy as a group then no way would they simply give up that group that gives them an advantage. Things are always easy if people would simply do what we want them to do. But they won't because they're acting in their own self-interest, not the interest of other individuals or the communities they belong to. Cells that act in their own self-interest without regard to the collective body of which they are residents are, by definition, cancer.

I'm proud to be black because being black isn't easy. I'm simply also proud to be an American (I wasn't always). I'm proud to be a man. And more than that I am proud to be human. We must embrace all levels of our existence because they (being environmental constructs) all relate back to who you are: strengths, weaknesses, benefits, liabilities, advantages, challenges, and all experiences in between. If a person cannot respect the fact that I am black (blackness is a man-made concept but so is 'animal' and 'person') then they cannot accept me as an individual, be they white, black, or other.

You can't miss the uniqueness of the trees for the vastness of the forest. These connections are good for growth. However, it's the inner person that makes the man. It's the reason two siblings from the same home can become totally different people.. These temporal conditions aren't what makes us. They're tools for growth. An accumulation of the experiences of these conditions, and the choices made by them, constitute the character of the soul. Each one being as unique as a snowflake.. and we can't forget to be able to distinguish ourselves from others or run the risk of a mob-like mentality. The is the beauty of our level in creation. It's a delicate balance. Cooperative Individualism is part of it.

This purely collective, tribal way of addressing our problems is causing more harm than good because of the anger and hate being projected into it..

How can we learn to respect each other's tribe when we can barely do so as individuals?.. Look at Colin is being treated. Folks can't respect his personal right of speech and protesters. Much less the issue he wanted to bring attention to..

Jaedon Adar-Barnaby wrote: You can't miss the uniqueness of the trees for the vastness of the forest. These connections are good for growth. However, it's the inner person that makes the man. It's the reason two siblings from the same home can become totally different people.. These temporal conditions aren't what makes us. They're tools for growth. An accumulation of the experiences of these conditions, and the choices made by them, constitute the character of the soul. Each one being as unique as a snowflake.. and we can't forget to be able to distinguish ourselves from others or run the risk of a mob-like mentality. The is the beauty of our level in creation. It's a delicate balance. Cooperative Individualism is part of it.

I agree. But snowflakes are different because the conditions that make them are different. I don't believe in strictly 'nature or nurture'. I believe in 'nature AND nurture'. My sister and I are different because our experiences in life go beyond the parenting we both received. And even that was different because I was their second child. They had the benefit of more experience. My sister and I also had different experiences being opposite genders. We went to different schools, had different friends. And yet, by nature, we have similarities that other kids from other parents may have only by coincidence. Race, religion, and culture were all factors. ALL these things add up to unique individuals. ALL these things should be accepted if someone claims to accept you.

In the Brown Eyes Blue Eyes experiment Jane Elliott proved that treating a group a certain way would create the behavior commonly associated with black people as an oppressed minority. She transferred the same treatment to people with blue eyes as opposed to brown skin. One could argue the ethics of this, but the results were telling.

The things that we've gone through help build us. Our reaction to the opposition, the tactics we use to navigate racism and discrimination, the humility we have to endure to survive encounters with the police. It seems like it would be easier if we were all the same color. But the truth is that people would then find some other difference to use because racism itself is a strategy of supremacy. It doesn't simply exist to exist or because people thought it was a good idea. It exists because it serves a purpose. It acts a shield between the rich and the poor.

Like most things in a capitalistic society, racism has always been about money. Not only were slaves an economic commodity, but also, poor blacks were blamed for whites having fewer jobs and opportunities. With freed slaves suddenly competing for paying jobs... it was musical chairs and someone had to lose out. The love of money is called the root of all evil because it is corrupting. You were right when you said racism was a moral issue. But as long as it is also a tool it cannot die from moral arguments.

Not really that important to the discussion but this is what i meant about Cosby:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us/bill-cosby-quaaludes-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

Coke (and today, meth) makes people horny... qualudes make people sleepy, and eventually unconscious. If he had admitted to buying a bunch of coke in order to have sex with women, that would be different.
But fair enough, I don't really know. I read as much as was available at the time that i cared to read about it and drew the conclusion that made sense based on what i read. I'm not Bill Cosby or any of the women, and i wasn't in the jury or any part of the proceedings. Again, its not really important to this discussion, unless maybe you don't believe I would judge a white guy by the same standards. Which i say that I would.

ZealotX wrote:
I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

When I was writing that post, somehow I hit the "submit" button long before I was done writing. So an unfinished (and not entirely coherent) post was submitted into public view, and with a short window for editing, I had to slap together some links without really looking that closely at them. I have been posting here for years on this topic. Ive submitted links before and besides that, i am VERY familiar with the issue and I know quite well that what I said about how "racism" has been deformed into "whiteness" was accurate, whatever the content of that specific link may have been.


And therein is the first of the obstacles that will keep us divided, because I will not join a side when its basic premise is predicated on my personal guilt for things that happened before i was even born, or the idea that i am to be held to a different set of standards because of my skin color. I am guilty only of the consequences my own choices and I do not accept the guilt of anyone else as my own. I will not cooperate with a social movement that seeks to impinge me for someone else's behavior and I will hold all parties to the same set of standards. These will be recurring themes of our discussions lol.

ZealotX wrote: Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

Racism has meant the same thing for decades. There is a modern, SJW version, where racism is specifically white supremacy, and only white people can be guilty of it. THATS the "socially engineered" version of racism, and embracing it as valid is not going to reduce the amount of real racism in the world.

ZealotX wrote: So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based.

There isn't a functional definition of racism offered either in your words nor in that ridiculous video, unless you mean "race" in the sense of a race-track, where we compete in and field events... like we are all racing against each other to get to the finish line.

The closest thing to a definition was this: "Racism is a competitive relationship between groups of people that are competing for the ownership and control of wealth and resources".

Point 1:
LOL, Thank you Karl Marx, for that is Marxism exactly. The idea of civilization as a battleground (of wealth and resources) between the proletariat and the bourgeois. Its literally just B.S. Marxist theory overlaid to western capitalism generally and American politics specifically. Except now you (general "you" meaning the radical leftists) want to identify the bourgeois as the straight white male, and everyone else as the proletariat. That playbook made communist nations a hell-hole for hundreds of millions of people, and it would do the same to USA if it is allowed to. But it wont be, because, ME, lol.

Point 2:
Arent realtors and stockholders "groups of people competing for the ownership of wealth and resources"? In fact, arent you and i? The job market itself is a competition, and so is housing. So is shopping for groceries or clothes, for that matter. We are involved in all of those markets, competing with each other for the ownership of wealth and resources.

Point3:
The dude in the video is not EXACTLY wrong, but from my understanding, hes not right either.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#Slavery_incorporated_into_canon_law

If you care to find a copy of the original papal decree then we can look at that. Otherwise, I'm calling it "revisionist B.S.'
If you want to use the formula "racism = racial prejudice + social power" then that would be ok with me. But i predict that isn't going to be allowed for much longer because it doesnt work to the ambitions of the Marxists who want us to battle each other with group vs group identity politics. It doesn't work because there are too many examples of non-whites in positions of wealth, influence, and power.

I'm going to let you in on a secret: white people don't actually have some grand white brotherhood of conquest, dominance, and exclusion. Believe it or not, Dick Cheney doesn't give any more of a fk about me than he does about you. He is certainly a part of a large number of powerful groups, but whiteness is not the defining criteria for membership in those groups. Wealth, yeah. Ownership of multi-national companies, claims to big energy and infrastructure building. Ties to the intelligence community. Membership at a number of prestigious golf clubs, even.
Now admittedly, being white was a prerequisite during a particular time in history (and in some cases it is still and in some cases it may still be quite a challenge to break through into certain groups if one isn't white) but America has got non-white people who have risen to positions of great wealth, authority, and influence. And the groups which hold the most power are not in fact predicated on race, but rather on economic and political significance.

ZealotX wrote: Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

By this "definition" (which isn't a definition, though it seems to have been accepted as one), everyone who pays taxes is a racist. Everyone who holds a job or votes, or basically isn't a communist revolutionary plotting a civil war and the displacement of the entire USA government is racist.

ZealotX wrote: No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

If daesh kidnapped and murdered you, it wouldn't be because you deserved to be kidnapped and murdered, it would be because daesh are kidnapping, murdering, raping, pillaging bastards. Kidnapping and murdering people is what they do.

ZealotX wrote: I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does.

Its your responsibility to decide where your responsibility begins and ends. If you think that youre responsible for the Iraq invasion (which I'm using as a place holder for all of usa interactions with muslim countries) then that's your choice to feel that way. I used my voice as well as i was able at the time, but the tides were against me. I voted the way i voted, but my vote didn't win. I did what i could do, the rest of the world did what it did. I accept responsibility for my actions because i am responsible for my actions. Other people took other actions, and those people are responsible for their actions.

ZealotX wrote: I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done.

If I'm responsible for "all the things that the white race has collectively done" then doesnt that mean i am also responsible for electricity? The abolition of slavery? Industry? Modern infrastructure? Democracy? Airplanes? The internet?
Arent i responsible for the building of Western civilization in general? Dont i also deserve personal credit for all the good things that white people have done and produced over the years? Or am i only to be given the blame for their mistakes and crimes?

Whatever your opinion may be, I accept neither the credit nor the blame.\.
The only part that i have to play in this game is what i do with my own life. I was born into the context of this era, what i do within that context is my responsibility but the context itself is not.



The current state of research basically says that implicit bias testing can produce MORE bias in people who are forced to take the training, but that it can also be useful for reducing bias in people who volunteer to take it.

Its also not exactly proven that it measures racism, so much as "novelty response" which is quite different from racism. I'm not really wanting to say that the idea of testing has absolutely no place. My real issue with it is more about everyday people thinking they "sense" the unconscious bias of their peers. I cannot stand paranoid black people who "just know" that all the white people aroudn them are racists because... whatever.

Ive spent a lot of time with a lot of black people. I lived in black neighborhoods as a child, went to primary, middle, and high schools with large black populations. Ive been to jail and had to live and cell-mate with black people. Ive returned to school in my adulthood and am currently a student at a community college, and many of my peers nd some of my professors are black: growing up, my best friends (and worst enemies) were often black. My jiujitsu coach (one of the most important people in my life) is black. Ive crushed on black girls and ive worked with AND FOR black people in many of the jobs that ive had over the years.

I have known MANY black people, and a not-insignificant number of them have stereotyped me, assuming that i judge them harshly because they are black. I dont decide a persons merit based on their skin: I judge people by how they carry themselves and the ideas they express. If your ideas are ignorant and juvenile then i wont like you, whatever color you are. If your bearing is one of integrity and personal responsibility, then i will like you (or at least respect you) whatever color you are.

Ive seen a lot of black people assuming racism where there wasnt any, and this idea of unconscious bias just adds to that. I dislike it because it makes it easy for people to decide racism exists without any real proof. When you cant find any actual, objective evidence for racism, you can ALWAYS pull the "unconscious bias" card to inject racism even when there isn't any, AND MANY PEOPLE DO JUST THAT. That's what i really dislike about it.

ZealotX wrote: The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race.

So, we agree that you cannot hold one person responsible for the actions of some other, completely unrelated person, simply because they have the same skin color? If we can agree on that then it will go a long way towards us reaching an accord. If not, well that's life. We dont always agree with each other.

ZealotX wrote: On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

We all have personal experiences. I can give you some pretty unhappy experiences from my own life (especially my childhood) but i wont. I will repeat the importance of personal responsibility. We all get treated unfairly in life. You might think its worse for you because youre black. This other person thinks its worse for him because he is gay. That one thinks its worse for her because shes a woman. Another thinks its worse for her because she is ugly and not very smart. Another says he is fat and socially inadequate. Yet another is dirt poor and another is scrawny and afraid of everyone. We all feel persecuted. And really, we all ARE persecuted at certain moments in our lives. Yet, virtually all of us end up with the lives that we built through our personal decisions, in spite of our persecutions.

ZealotX wrote: But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists....

I'm not saying the idea is specific to BLM, I'm saying it is a general refrain of the psycho, communist, infiltrated, modern left. Which in no way should be taken to suggest that i deny the psycho crazies on the right, there are many. I'm against crazy people being in charge no matter what their political affiliations are.
Which makes me a true minority in this mad house of an era lol
My point is only that if we really want to build a society of justice and fairness then we have to reject ALL racist ideas.

ZealotX wrote: ....in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites.

I'm not sure what you actually meant when you said that but it comes across as "ive interacted with enough racist white people that I just know that pretty much all white people are racist".

ZealotX wrote: At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.

That part, I agree with.

I will be back, eventually.

@OB1Shinobi

First, let me applaud you. You are a great person. I really do mean this. This is part of the reason I have enjoyed having this discussion here as opposed to YouTube because the quality of individual character tends to be higher, imho. Often the people who have the worst things to say are the ones who make sure, like the trolls they are, that we hear them. They criticize everything from how we look to our IQ. I would say a lot of racists enjoy trolling people when they can get away with it. And before the internet, they were basically still trolling us and adding to the perception that their feelings were widespread. I'm personally not saying they are. In the next 2 posts, if I don't respond to every point you made it is only because I agree with you. But it wouldn't be right if I didn't try to explain how many of us view racism as a "collective" action of white people without personally blaming you. It's not meant to be personal. It's not meant to say OB1Shinobi... you are a racist. Not at all. There are always exceptions to every rule and you are exceptional.

What we have experienced is by definition "(white) racism". Where we came from everyone was some shade of brown. My skin color is brown, not black. So even the term itself is an exaggeration meant to draw attention to my color being about as different as it can get. When we couldn't drink from white fountains... it was ALL white fountains, not some of them. And I know you weren't there and you're not guilty. I wasn't there either. But when we had Jim Crow laws against us and when we were trying to run to freedom in the North, we knew that it wasn't all whites who were cool with it. That's why we knew to go North. Because there we would find people like you. That doesn't mean that suddenly racism is asian racism or latino racism. It's still white racism. And we want white people do do something about it because they are the only ones who can. When we are treated a certain way because of our race it is only the "house negro" who tends to say "but masa aint like that. He cares about us negros" and then we tell that uneducated person to shut the hell up because masa still views him as his property and no one ever said it was every single individual white person that was guilty. How would children be guilty? So no, we have never meant it that way. It's more like... those innocent children might grow up to be racists so their parents have to be responsible for them. We came from villages where your kids were essentially everyone's kids. Every adult had some level of responsibility to protect each other and educate and protect each other's kids. We have since been shifting away from that into more of the American sense of individual responsibility, but we still have that sense of shared responsibility in our culture which I think is why we lean more towards the Democratic Party. So I think it is a cultural way of thinking, not necessarily that every individual of a group is the same (which is why Ben Carson exists). And I can understand the confusion and agree that it would be terrible if that's what was meant.

I am also aware of how smaller groups and organizations make themselves sound bigger than they are. I'm also keenly aware of how the worst individuals of a group can be made to represent that group. A lot of the stereotypes against black people are based on the same thing. When people use words like thugs and super predators... we know who they're talking to and who they're talking about. And we know the effect words can have on a minority that doesn't have political or economic power.

According to history, it was a small minority of whites who actually owned slaves. However, many black people are under the "impression" that it was widespread. Of course slave masters with large fields would have a large number of slaves so if everyone had slaves then the white population would have been severely outnumbered. But I want to talk about this to help us all understand how impressions and perceptions play a huge role in the continuity of racism and white supremacy.

As I said before, there was a time when poor blacks and poor whites were working together and the rich whites were the minority however their wealth gave them power. Instead of losing their power to the majority the divided them. They gave land and jobs to poor whites on the basis of race. And even though those poor whites never owned a slave a day in their lives they protected the rich whites and helped them keep black people in a weaker position and even helped them by fighting for their right to keep slaves. And so even today, poor whites are taught to blame black people whenever they can't get jobs or opportunities that they were used to getting from the wealthy whites because they got it before on the basis of race.

It would be most accurate to blame the rich whites who basically used racism as a tool to enlist poor whites to help them maintain their power and economic supremacy, but this is basically where white supremacy comes from. It comes from whites who aren't wealthy, helping the wealthy whites stay on top because they believe they will create jobs (for them) and this is echoed by conservative talking points. If you want to say that the far right, I won't argue. But that's how I see it. And generally, the black community has suffered a number of events beyond slavery and jim crow, where we have seen the hate of the non-elite, non-wealthy, and even the non-educated, whites, create even more issues for us than the wealthy whites. It seems to me that the lower class whites were the group that was in competition with blacks. Therefore they were the ones who compared themselves to black people, who judged black people the harshest, who treated all black people as a monolith, and who ultimately didn't know black people because of how they tried to keep us segregated.

Now rich slave masters would have sex with black women all the time. But for the poor whites... the idea of a black man and a white woman was a perversion of nature and blasphemy. So there were mobs of whites that would burn down our towns. There has never been a black protest that has come close to the destruction of these mobs. And although a woman claiming rape was used as justification (even if it was a lie) it was jealousy and hate that motivated them. I think that probably most of the wealthy whites today are the LEAST racist because they never really had a reason to be. Like you said about Cheney, and you're right, he doesn't give a damn about either of us. Absolutely right. But POLITICALLY... he would never say that and republicans would never say that. Politics in general is a deceptive practice because the point isn't to let everyone know exactly what you think or feel but how you can manipulate people to think you're on their side even when you're NOT. That's how they steer the ship of a democracy even though they are in the minority.

What I'm suggesting to this forum is that the political effect of wealthy whites on poor whites helps to build up and maintain racism. The racial hatred mostly comes from poor whites. Those actually willing to do actual hate crimes tend to be uneducated as well. This wouldn't have affected you because of where you lived but in rural white communities and small towns with very few black people... yes, it has an effect. Think about how the KKK reacted to Donald Trump when he first condemned their actions vs. afterwards when he said there were some fine people among them and that both sides were to blame. They feel like he's with them. They feel like they have a voice in the white house. And when he says MAGA... they think MAWA. Now is Trump a racist? I think he is prejudiced and racially biased based on his past but I do not think he has any real connection with the alt-right, nazis, KKK, etc. I think he is using them just like he uses everyone else whose last name isn't Trump. There is a disconnect between the rich and the poor and the poor are largely seen as dependent on the rich. So instead of being disenfranchised by globalization and turning on their rich politicians... they blame black people. So this idea that "they took our jobs", what's that? This goes back to the definition of racism I shared before where it is about the control of resources for that particular racial group." It is un-American in ideology but essentially this is what the real racists believe. If they think blacks are inferior or whatever it is... hatred is not even necessary to racism because the bottom line is an "us vs them" mentality when it comes to SURVIVAL. And that has everything to do with control of the wealth and resources.

This is why white supremacy still exists; because it benefits white people in general. If you're playing basketball, if there's even one extra man on the court it is an unfair advantage. If one team is playing as a team and the other "team" is just a bunch of individuals trying to score for their own records, they'll lose because the team always has the advantage. Other groups that come to America also have a tendency to play as a team; especially because they see the disadvantage of not doing so. Even if you don't see it and there's no meetings, many whites do play as a team. And many of the ones who don't hire friends or family or school mates. These can have the appearance of being racist if those friends, family, school mates are all white because of where they grew up and went to school. Either way, if it wasn't for diversity hires I'd hate to see black unemployment numbers. And racism shouldn't be tolerated because it is against the ideals that the United States of America were founded on. And you have many whites who hold those ideals higher than race and higher than any desire to defend racism. And it is those whites who have evolved beyond the pettiness and who can save white people from this social virus.

I'd say I'm middle class but most black people are in the lower class. What kind of white people do they tend to come into contact with? Certainly not rich people who don't work at at any place they go to. We are already segregated by economics. Either we're dealing with the white people who grew up with us (like you) who are "cool" with us and vice versa or we're dealing with whites who see themselves in competition with us; not "one of us". So therefore, the perception many of us get, is that it (racism) is coming from all parts of the white community. It's coming from the top and the bottom. It's coming from the top because the top creates the systems and institutions and allows them to be run a certain way (in whatever way that will protect them and serve their agenda) and it comes from the bottom as the cogs in those systems and the instruments of that agenda.

Now if you look at whites in the middle... this is where a lot of the progressives are. They don't understand racism. They don't feel privy to racism. They're not generally in on the joke. They don't go to the same bars. They don't live in the same neighborhoods. They are segregated by class economics. So they are surprised to see overt racism in 2017. And they can't stand it. But... the black community simply cannot accept their blindness as an excuse. But the civil rights movement and other large protests are mainly an effort to get their attention as well as others who don't want to be part of this system of white supremacy. If black people simply thought ALL white people (on an individual level) were racist then what point would demonstrations serve? What point would marches and rallies have? Especially when white people and white clergy would march with us? And think about it like this... why were white people marching with us? Who did they hope would take notice? Who did they want to influence? I submit that they knew racism was a "white" problem.

We live in different strata of society. Within this there are different stereotypes that everyone knows isn't true for every individual. You've probably heard "white men can't jump", or "white people can't dance", etc. Silly stuff. But no one is thinking that there is not a single white person that has rhythm. That could be proven wrong all day by the number of white jazz musicians alone. And things, I think have gotten better, within the strata of America in which all races merge and share cultural aspects with each other. And yes, even if we might be able to trace it to Africa (like how everyone came from Africa), we associate martial arts with China and Japan. Yes, electricity is associated with Europeans just like black museums give credit to "black inventions". Now if you don't think of inventions as belonging to a racial group I think that's fantastic. But black people are more reactionary so it's because our history isn't taught in our public schools and I have personally had to defend my race against uneducated bigots who would tell me that black people never invented anything... things like that make us protective of our culture and contributions. But still, it is an emotional reaction to hate. That's why if we can solve the problem at its source then black people won't have to react to it, deflect it, or project it, and we'll then be able to get past racism.

The people in this conversation might be interested in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43gm3CJePn0&t=4s