The Problem with Black Lives Matter

So, when given statistical facts about racial segregation (even if not enforced) that still permeate society today (even in the USA) and racial profiling by those sworn to protect... are they still playing victim, or are they trying to bring light to the facts?

If you were attacked regularly by cops because of something you couldn't change, say I dunno, eye colour, pretty much forced to live in certain areas because of racism, and could get shot and killed for next to no reason other than a cop felt slightly threatened even if you went out of your way to be non-threatening, would you not also rage against the machine that made such atrocious acts possible?

Because, if not, I worry.

Institutional racism is clearly a contributing factor to the conversations going on right now, but we should be seeking to understand intent rather than the race of the various groups involved. BLM is a group seeking AWARENESS of issues black people face, not promoting blackness. Antifa is a group seeking AWARENESS of fascist activities, not promoting socialism. While the hope is that this awareness will lead to action and reform, the fact is the main goal of these groups is simply to make others aware of the issues we all face as a society. White people can support BLM just as men can support #MeToo or #ShePersisted or breast cancer awareness. NFL players kneeling don't have to be black or white to raise AWARENESS of the issue at hand. It isn't always about race. It is often about power and who controls the narrative.

Siptah wrote: Do black lives matter? If so to whom do they matter? Do they matter to blacks themselves? Somewhere along the way here we took a turn that were I some snowflake SJW I would find disturbing.

Why do you need an anchoring point to determine the value of human lives? You're a Jedi, aren't you? You're supposed to be a warrior for social justice.

It's not an issue of "to whom do they matter?" The point is that they matter.

Siptah wrote: So do black lives matter? Only if they matter enough to the oppressed victims to want to make real change without the excuses of evil whitey and his gigantic institutions of racial oppression. If you do not even care about yourselves enough to change, when you act like savages rioting and burning your own communities how can you expect anyone else to care.

I get the sense that you don't understand the point of riots, or that there were several peaceful protests...

Here's the sentence I'm disagreeing with so we're on the same page.

" I think this is the base reason why people take an equality approach to dealing with discrimination, because it does not pretend that any one type of discrimination is more hurtful or important then the others and does not pretend to know the suffering of others."

I disagree with this whole thought process and question its very origins.

First. Please note that BLM is being criticized. I do NOT agree with the criticisms but more than that I think the criticisms come from a racist ideology that permeates society and filters through it from the most irrational tribal mind (trickle down) to even the rational sincere, thoughtful and caring nonracist individuals such as yourself.

Before I explain further let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Let's say a father leaves for war. Depending on what side of the war he's on the mother will tell the child a different story about why their father isn't here. In both stories he'll probably sound like a hero. But to the children on the other side whose fathers he's killing, a hero he is not. With me so far? Now when child tells the story the father is even greater than he was because in his mind he built up his father (because he was his father) into something greater than even what his mother told. Who's wrong? What if he fought for the North? What if he fought for the South?

The answer is either black or white or it is a matter of perspective.

Now... what if the story is not mother to son but rather propaganda from the strategists on one side or the other? Does that change the equation?

This is why we still have racism and white supremacy. Understand, that you may have never heard the "story", but that doesn't mean it's not being told in many households. Roy Moore nearly got elected in Alabama and Roy Moore feels that the country was better during slavery. So just as we (black people) suspected, MAGA is code that means take America back to the time of slavery (not in every single way mind you) because that's when they think America was great. Not now.... not with all these minorities running around... making it "not Great"... and especially right after Obama. How many women did so many people in Alabama ignore because they believe what Roy Moore claimed? He claims to share their Christian values. Publicly, he speaks like a preacher. He quotes the bible. He checks all the right boxes for them. FOR THEM. This let's them ignore the victims of sexual misconduct, abuse, and rape. He was a pedophile. His wife first caught his attention when she was a child (and he wasn't). Roy Moore, in many ways, symbolizes why black people still suffer racism and white supremacy in America. Because we ignore the victims and even attack and smear and try to discredit them in support of symbols and tribes and race. It makes no sense to disbelieve literally millions of black people. But that's what happens in America. BLM wasn't simply criticized. It was smeared and politically attacked in order to destroy its credibility. Why? So that people wouldn't listen. And so that the country would not change (conservatives want to conserve... just not the environment).

This may still not be very clear to you so let me relate this back to what I said about the trickle down effect of propaganda.

Extremely racist people were the first ones attacking BLM. Why? Because they wish BLM was protesting in some different way? NO! They hate black people. Period. We keep asking their representatives to tell us how we should protest and they never answer because they know full well that there is none. They're not looking for the most rational explanation of why BLM is bad. It just is. But in order to attack it they have to find something that other whites who are not extremely racist will agree with. So when they communicate their attacks they create this justification. For example "They hate white people just like we hate them" becomes "They hate America" which becomes "they're disrespecting the flag and the troops". Although none of that is true there is a justification that many whites can get on board with as the attack moves from the extreme/alt right to the middle. It usually stops there because many whites on the Left are just like "no, that dog whistle ain't gonna work here. Just no. " And that's why these attacks usually die off and are not repeated by the Left / Liberals. The point is that these ideas from the extreme right go through an evolution as they progressively move through white society to the point where sane people are criticizing BLM when those attacks started with insane hateful bad actors. These attacks on BLM have ALWAYS been a political TOOL. The KKK, more than anything else, wants to get white people on their side. They're smart enough to know that they can't convert half the country. However, they know they can get half the country to agree with them and they can get half the country to attack the thing they're attacking.

To YOU it may be about fairness, but even though that criticism is valid to you, what I'm saying is that it isn't valid and that no one would think it was if it weren't for the initial racist attack on BLM. Take that away, pretend no one Fox news was anti-BLM. Take away the most extreme views from the alt right and Alex Jones and all these people who influence white America. Would there be videos with random whites criticizing BLM? Did you notice who created this thread? Did you take note of their reason for starting it? Did you think it was to invite criticisms of BLM? In your first post you said something about rebranding. You said Islam had the same problem. So does that mean Muslims should stop calling themselves muslims? If the views of a minority do not represent the views of the organization (which will always be the case) then why should the organization have to rebrand? That would be like us having to rebrand the United States on account of all the rednecks who hate black people. Does that make any sense?

Taking something true of a minority and applying it to the entire group... isn't that racist?

Again, by the time the attacks on BLM get to smart, thoughtful, reasonable people like you its about something else.

" I think this is the base reason why people take an equality approach to dealing with discrimination, because it does not pretend that any one type of discrimination is more hurtful or important then the others and does not pretend to know the suffering of others."

Unfortunately one type of discrimination CAN be more hurtful or important than others. If you can't become a model because you're short and overweight that's one thing. And I'm sorry if someone wants to be a model and was born with genes that prevent them from being tall. However, that's different from a person who has great difficulty trying to get a job that doesn't involve manual labor because their name sounds like they're black. That's different from a person who is taken to a camp because of their religion. That's different from a company putting a dangerous pipeline through your lands that they couldn't put in other places because people didn't want it but it doesn't matter with you because you're Native Americans. That's different from a person who gets shot because of the bias of a police officer whose entire job it is to protect and serve. There is no need to pretend. These are very different. The effects are very different.

The way black people handle it is this. We don't attack or criticize Jews on the subject of the holocaust. You've NEVER seen that happen. We don't protest the Native American protests. If anything we stand with them if their causes are just. Native Americans didn't exactly fight for every cause. Does that make them less deserving of their own? Jews often exploited black people financially during our struggle. Does that make them less deserving when speaking out against what was done to them? Do you think black people created the NAACP? Let me read you its purpose:

"To ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate racial hatred and racial discrimination."

HOW DARE THEY?! How dare they not state in their purpose that they want to fight gender discrimination?! Let's be outraged!

no? no outrage? no counter protest?

Why not?

It's because the issue was never really about the purpose and intent of BLM. BLM doesn't own "the movement". And it was designed to be a leaderless organization as mentioned in the last video I shared. The movement could have address ALL LIVES if that's what whites really wanted. Whites could have joined the MOVEMENT en mass IF they wanted to. But whites didn't create organizations similar to BLM. They didn't create an ALM or even a WLM. Well why the hell not?! Because it was never about white lives for the people attacking BLM. It was simply about defeating BLM. They didn't have an endgame or an agenda beyond that. It was simply an anti-BLM response. And they used lies and twisted words in order to attack because they didn't want the police to change how they policed black people. They like being at least a little bit racist in this country. Why? Because it is an advantage.

MAGA = Whites having an Advantage over everyone else.

Where are the same critics of BLM to police every statement of Trump and his MAGA agenda? How quiet are they? And when they do speak they speak in support of the racist sexist pussy grabbing molester. Don't let them fool you. These political tools are not about fairness or justice or making the world into a better place. They are about making America a better place for white people.

Senan wrote: Institutional racism is clearly a contributing factor to the conversations going on right now, but we should be seeking to understand intent rather than the race of the various groups involved. BLM is a group seeking AWARENESS of issues black people face, not promoting blackness. Antifa is a group seeking AWARENESS of fascist activities, not promoting socialism. While the hope is that this awareness will lead to action and reform, the fact is the main goal of these groups is simply to make others aware of the issues we all face as a society. White people can support BLM just as men can support #MeToo or #ShePersisted or breast cancer awareness. NFL players kneeling don't have to be black or white to raise AWARENESS of the issue at hand. It isn't always about race. It is often about power and who controls the narrative.

masterfully said.

@Siptah

There is much to unpack in your post. I'm sorry for your experiences but I have to say that you are confused. Bigly.

I'm going to apologize to the forum for responding to you more directly and more personally. I hate when disagreements get personal. Now, I'm not saying you're a bad person, but you definitely have issues with racism. I probably wont be able to change your perspective but I hope to at least make a few point to help balance your viewpoint for anyone who might be more on the fence.

Let's take first the English language which you hold in high esteem.

I have lived in Ohio for most of my life, but I spent my college years in Huntsville, Alabama. I can tell you that there is one English language but there are different English Dialects and Accents. What you described was a hard Southern accent. When children learn how to talk they learn from hearing and mimicry. This has nothing to do with intelligence or even education. If your parent was from the South they might have an accent that you get used to. My mother was from Alabama. My father was from Jamaica. They both spent years in New York and Connecticut before they moved to Ohio. I had an uncle in the South I could barely understand through his thick accent. And I have cousins in Jamaica I can barely understand through their "patois" which was mostly difficult because of the speed. It's incredibly fast. Sometimes faster than I can discern. I personally like "proper" English but that's a relative term since we speak AMERICAN English which has different vocal sounds and pronunciation from the original. I also have an affinity for Old English because I grew up with the King James Version of the Bible. So English is beautiful in its array of variation. You cannot say there is one way to speak it and everything else is wrong or dumb because that would apply also to you. And as far as black people go, black people had to learn English in spoken form first to understand their slave masters but they weren't allowed to be educated or taught to read. So even if they could have deduced how to pronounce words by their spellings they weren't allowed to learn how to spell or sound out words by their spelling. They were kept ignorant of the English language ON PURPOSE. You might imagine a different world in which white people flipped a switch and suddenly everything was equal and fair and blacks had the same equal access to education as whites. I WISH we could all live in that world because that is not what happened. Whites were given the good education and blacks simply were not. And if your parents didn't know how to read then how could they help you?

Education & Schools:

In Jamaica they have a BRITISH educational system. It is very strict and Jamaicans often outperform African Americans and even regular Americans in many cases. America's rating in education is not the best... AT ALL. It also comes from the fact that Jamaicans were free before African Americans who also had to deal with Jim Crow and tons of whites who thought they were superior to blacks. In Jamaica black people are like 96% of the population. That means, most businesses, most of government, most everything is owned and operated by black people. My father worked his way up, became a computer programmer, and eventually the head of his department, making more money than many educated whites. Education was very important to him as a means of escaping poverty. Because he didn't just come from a third world country, which Jamaica still is, he was born in the country and had to spear fish and even took a year or two off of school to feed his family; not because his father had left them, but because his father died. And what did he pass on to his children? My sister is a doctor married to a doctor. I am also a programmer making a great salary. This is our story.

My story is different from a lot of other black people because my parents could afford to put me into a better school during my early years. And then I went to public school. To say I was ahead of the public school kids was an understatement. I can understand white people feeling somewhat superior in this sense because what I experienced myself disturbed me even as a 5th grader. I could have slept through class and still been on honor roll. You're blaming the skin color of the students. A lot of the kids in my class couldn't read very well compared to me but it wasn't their fault. It was their SCHOOL. Although I loved at least a handful of my teachers the quality of education was poor because the standards were poor and because they were just trying pass students, not make sure they were properly educated. And its not a 6th Grade teacher's fault if they have students who are not on a 6th Grade level. What are they supposed to do? Those kids left behind, what were they supposed to do? Many of their teachers didn't care about them. And when adults don't care many kids will act out. Their behavior becomes a protest. Some of the kids I grew up with were just bad kids. Period. But that had nothing to do with their skin color. Some kids are just bad because they learn how to be. But what is not true is any implication that the problem is with black people when numerous systems consistently fail us. Why is the money for schools not split between the whole state or city? The money is segregated because white neighborhoods want the advantage that comes with that money. By definition then, this means that black schools in black neighborhoods WILL AUTOMATICALLY BE DISADVANTAGED.

So if you can, through public policy, distribute the poor to concentrated areas of the city, you can move the advantages away from them. This is what many whites don't seem to understand but everyone in the ghetto and the projects knows this because they live it everyday. This IS what makes them victims. They are victims of unfair policies created to advantage one group of people over another.


Crime:

What happens when you concentrate poorly educated people in small housing blocks where the combined income is miniscule? Prices at your local grocery store are based on the AVERAGE cost of living, NOT your individual income. So while you don't have to struggle to eat, there is someone else who capitalism is absolutely dumping on who doesn't have enough money to buy groceries. Even if you want to escape your parents can't afford a better place to live outside of those areas and before you can finish high school someone comes to you with a job offer to sell drugs. Their prospects aren't the same as yours. They don't think about the prospect of going to college. Some of them can't even spell college. And they can't afford the tuition and since they were miseducated they can't apply for scholarships. There are always exceptional people who are always exceptions to the rules but we're talking about beliefs which is based on what people see. Meanwhile, you can have a poor white family who doesn't make hardly any money but they're living on land that's been in their family for generations. It's not the same. And even still poor whites know where to find the white drug dealers. The population is simply different. Even the same number of white drug dealers would be hardly noticeable in the white population.

And then the high crimes people mostly turn a blind eye to because it doesn't affect them. It's not up close and personal. A guy robs you for $50 and it is traumatic. A white guy steals $500,000,000 and it's barely news for a week. It's not traumatic because the effects are not personal. White collar crimes happen everyday. Most get away with it for years. I was a witness in a white collar case myself. A couple black guys were driven by their white buddies in the financial industry to basically lie about what their company was doing to raise the value of the penny stock. I didn't know at the time. They paid me to help them write their press releases. They treated it like it was something everyone was doing. They got caught but I bet a lot of others don't. It is the nature and concentration of crime that make people think that crime in the black community is so bad. There are about 40 MILLION black people in America. How much of that live in war zones like Chicago? Black are about 30% of the population there which is under 3 million total. And we're not talking about thugs we're talking about many who are cultured gentlemen and women like Barack and Michelle Obama.

And we cannot compare ghettos to trailer parks exactly because trailer parks are voluntary. And even then, the term "trailer park trash" is used around the country. But if you take a white guy out of the trailer park, throw a suit on him, and cut and style his hair, a potential employer won't know where he comes from or associate him with garbage. But for a lot of employers, even hearing a name that sounds too black is already a potentially fatal strike against an applicant. This is why a lot of parents give their children white names in an attempt to protect their futures. It is sad and shameful that this is necessary and it says more about the world they have to send their children into than it does about their children. All white people in an all white neighborhood don't have to worry about many things black children who grow up in all bad neighborhoods have to deal with. Notice I said bad not black. I live in a nice house in a nice black neighborhood on the black side of town. Most of the crime in my area happens at low income housing or clubs and bars.

The problem with your story is that you're tying everything bad to a race (without even the balance of anything good) without the benefit or context of how those people are disadvantaged. So basically, you're saying they're all choosing that life (and seemingly implying that the only good life for blacks is one of complete assimilation). This is not the case. It is mostly about concentrated poverty not race. Education is an equalizer but education is not portioned equally. And if you haven't noticed colleges have been increasing tuition dramatically which makes it even harder for black people. And lowers the realistic prospects, dreams, and expectations of our youth. Even if you get scholarships, if the tuition goes up your scholarship may no longer cover the costs. You may even have multiple scholarships and they may only pay for a year or two. And maybe they don't cover books or housing. In the last decade tuition has gone up 80%?! And Americans now owe 1.2 Trillion to colleges?! This no problem for families who are already rich. But for the rest of us, this means more wealth is transferred from the poor and middle class to the rich and it is less likely that lower class people will become college educated. And even with cheaper community colleges it's not the same. The truth is that if you want someone to blame, blame the people who consistently deny black people from getting loans, buying houses in better neighborhoods, having equal access to quality education, and making sure that any criminal past haunts them into the future to help them go back to jail, as well as all the people in law enforcement who treat addiction as a moral and criminal issue until it affects too many whites and becomes a public health issue. Blame all the people who exploit the poor and sell them guns and alcohol and drugs and defend people being able to buy all kinds of weapons even though we have mass murders every week. Then come talk to me about how black people can't speak proper English (which is BS) and are criminals but not the victims of behavior that should be criminal in our society. Then tell me how black lives don't matter.

TheDude wrote: The injustice is had when there is disproportionate application of force in the justice system. That is what I stand against. Namely, I stand against any use of unjustified force in any situation -- but especially in the cases of police officers, military members, politicians, and so on who are supposed to act as role models for the rest of society.

Simply put, ending police brutality ends police brutality against minorities. That is the goal. Why purposely divide a movement working against police brutality by applying a racial lens?

I have no doubt that many BLM supporters have been justly motivated to work for a good social cause. It is naive, though, to think that the causes outlined in the BLM protests will solve the underlying issues plaguing our society. There is a better way.

In addition, I have personally seen a rise in black nationalism since the BLM movement came about. Plenty of people out there today are preaching about how the white man is the most evil thing to face the earth. That is nothing but racism in my eyes.

Yes, it is possible to be racist against people with white skin.
No, people who have white skin are not automatically racist.
No, this does not invalidate the real issue which is police brutality.
If you believe that those three previous statements are false, I would be glad to address any of your specific points and show you how you are wrong. Because you are wrong. You support viewing morality through a racial lens, which is NEVER under ANY circumstances acceptable.

tl;dr: abuse of authoritarian systems to justify violence is the problem. Race has NOTHING to do with it, and if there are racial separations in police brutality it is solved most easily by solving the issue of police brutality -- not "solving police brutality for African-Americans". Even the notion that such a thing would specifically be targeted at benefiting one group over another sickens me to my core.

Slightly edited, I agree 100% with the above

ZealotX wrote: The Video:

I love how "I'm not racist" gets repeated. This was a good artistic choice because the whole argument and how it is received changes based on this question. What aggravated me a lot during the beginning of the video was how this "White guy" is talking to this black guy like he knows him and, by extension, me.

I understand that sentiment. Its very frustrating for me to be told how privileged and oppressive i am, especially by people who have never even met me.

ZealotX wrote: Black people should not have to defend the actions of poor black people or uneducated black people or black people who have mental health issues or black people who have addictions.

And this is where we are going ot have a major area of disagreement because it seems like you want to apply this standard to whites but not to blacks.

ZealotX wrote: Black people have certainly not stated that whites are a problem to society based on all the white drug dealers, white gun dealers, white mafia, white sex slavery, white prostitution, whites on welfare, etc. etc.

Its not "black people" its radical leftists...and usually what they say is "whites are a virus that murdered the natives, enslaved the blacks, built empires all over the world and oppress everyone else for their greed and power-trip" ..

ZealotX wrote: We don't tie these things to a person's race or ethnicity.

When you say "we" are you speaking for all black people?

ZealotX wrote: When we say "White Supremacy" a lot of white people get offended because they don't feel personally responsible. They were just born white just like I was born black. And so... I think... they start feeling upset by implication that they are somehow a part of this group of whites who they ethically and morally disagree with to their very core.

Just want to make this clear: i have ZERO white guilt and i have contempt for whites who do. I 100% refuse to take any responsibility for the actions of people who i dont know and cannot influence. Especially if they were dead before i was born lol...such an obvious concept to which so many are absolutely oblivious.

ZealotX wrote: And at some point they start pushing back against those feelings and those ideas out of a defensive position of not being able to accept that identity as part of who they are.

Exactly. People who have never met me are attempting to tell me that my identity is as an oppressor. I know me better than you know me, and im not accepting that identity, or compromising with people who want to impose it upon me. We were friends until you started this bullshit lol (not you personally but in general)

ZealotX wrote: And in that effort they look for blame and they start saying things like "blacks do this" and "blacks do that" and what about this or what about that?

If i am responsible for what other white people do then youre responsible for what other black people do. We are either ALL responsible for ourselves, or we are ALL responsible for our entire racial groups. Actually, we are just responsible for ourselves.

ZealotX wrote: But in that state of defending your own innocence many fail to see the feelings behind those accusations of racism and the CURRENT state of white supremacy and all the whites who are being defended and protected by this backlash... this counter protest.

On this point i will admit that i have seen in myself and in others a reflexive tendency where when someone implicates me as being a privileged oppressor i regard that as an attack and instantly take on an oppositional frame of mind. This makes me MUCH LESS inclined to acknowledge any point, even valid points, from the person who has attacked me. I have made a real effort at understanding oppression in USA and i am much more sympathetic to the plight of blacks than my posting here might suggest, but like ive said before, im not compromising with people who want to apply their own version of racism to me.

ZealotX wrote: When Donald Trump announced that he was recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel do you think he was fully aware of what he was doing? Or do you think he just didn't care about the results or consequences as long as someone told him that's what "We" should do? What does the rest of the world see? Does it see the US throwing its weight around in spite of the lives of actual people? When Trump rejected climate change was that a recognition of the lives of his great grandchildren and what kind of world they would inherit? I bring these things up because people don't seem to realize their own power or how it's felt until it's too late. People have a tendency to be selfish and to think about how their life affects their life.

I really dont want to talk about Trump because i have about ONE THING TO SAY on that note and ive already said it over and over and people arent listening... but hell, i will try one last time. Trump won because Hillary is a crook and the internet loves trolling memes. Also, wanting to have borders doesnt make someone a racist.
Yes, the racists all voted for Trump. Bit those people all voted against Obama also, and he won twice. Why dont you ASK PEOPLE why they voted for trump (and believe them when they tell you) instead of assuming its ALL racism? But w/e. I didnt vote for Trump btw.. I would vomit in my mouth if i tried to vote for Hillary OR Trump because i think theyre both disgusting as hell. But because im not blind to either of them, i can see why people would vote for one, thinking that one is better than the other.

ZealotX wrote: The problem is that in a world ruled by majority rule the minorities have to be protected too-precisely because they don't have the power to look out for themselves. They can't make rules to stop themselves from being exploited just like slaves could not make laws to end lynchings or give them the freedom to drink from any public water fountain. Some of the most basic freedoms and human dignity that whites have had in this country since the beginning were systematically denied to others.

How old are you? I would find your argument more compelling if it were based on your personal experience of not being allowed to do what whites are allowed to do, rather than... something that ever happened to you.

ZealotX wrote: So when those minorities struggle, part of that struggle is because they were denied. Part of that struggle is a result of being disadvantaged and judged by stereotypes.

Yes this is true, and man, my heart really does go out to the injustice of it. But its also less true now than it was fifty years ago and (unless the race-baiting marxist agitators get what they want and make us all MORE racist towards each other) it gets less true with every generation. The solution is the same now as it was then: black people getting degrees and having successful careers in bedrock institutions such as law (cops, lawyers, judges) medicine, education, banking, infrastructure development, military (as officers) and government (as elected officials). Thats it. Thats always been the the solution to discrimination and its always been an uphill struggle. Its easier now than it has ever been, but (more than ever before) a lot of black people seem to want to make enemies of the white people that are otherwise on their side, by accusing us of being racist oppressors. gtfo lol

ZealotX wrote: When those minorities hate you. It's because of what you, via your majority rule, allowed to happen to them and still allow to happen to them.

When people i hate me i will see them as a threat and an enemy, and i will oppose them. Want me to stand with you, or against you? (again, this is a general "you", not you in particular)

ZealotX wrote: But at the same time what they don't understand is that, as much as whites want to unify black people through a bunch of negative stereotypes,

using stereotypes to combat stereotypes, lol winning!

ZealotX wrote: ....whites are not unified through a bunch of positive stereotypes.

Whites are not unified at all. The only whites who even want to be unified (on the basis of whiteness) are the actual white supremacists.. and the more that the left pushes against "whites" as if we are a unified group, the more that the white supremacists and the white nationalists begin to look like justifiable movements. If you want to create MORE racism in the world, the way to do that is by promoting racist ideas such as the idea that all whites are racist and only whites can be racist.

People are unified through their communities, their roles, their economic status, their religions, the organizations they are a part of.
Veterans are somewhat unified through their military experience. People who went to FSU are unified through their alma-mater. Cops are unified through being cops. Jiu-jitus community is unified through participation in jiujitsu.. these are how people unify. ONLY RACISTS see people as being unified by their race.

ZealotX wrote: Black Lives Matter. It doesn't mean white lives don't. White lives are never in question. The police officer already knows his own life matters. He doesn't need to be told or reminded. He's going to shoot you if he thinks his life is in danger. So this statement gets twisted by people who don't want to understand and who don't want to look at other whites who may be doing wrong simply because they're white too and don't want to be guilty by association.

The problem is that cops are allowed to kill people and get away with it. Not that they are allowed to kill black people. A free pass to murder American citizens is inexcusable, regardless of the race of the citizens.

ZealotX wrote: It is only when whites claim responsibility for racism and see, as a majority, that this is bad and that the lives of all people (including black people) are equal, only then will whites, as a race, be free of racism and white supremacy.

Are you responsible for the drug dealing gang-bangers in chiraq? Should I expect you to be?

Siptah wrote: a whole bunch of stuff...

I agree with a bit of what youve said but...well your avatar has someone hanging from a tree...
in the context of this discussion im not comfortable agreeing with you or thanking you because im not sure who you are or how far you go. I have some issues with BLM, but mostly my issue is with racism.. period. From any side.

It would be nice if i could search previous posts for more context

Senan wrote: BLM is a group seeking AWARENESS of issues black people face, not promoting blackness. Antifa is a group seeking AWARENESS of fascist activities, not promoting socialism.

Thats probably not true of BLM and its absolutely, definitely not true of Antifa.

Heres the first link i found .. its from a politically conservative source so you mayt reject it but the left isnt admitting the reality of antifa so most of the sources who do are going ot be conservative.. if you actually care about the truth then you can easily confirm it for yourself and if you dont, no source will be good enough for you.
http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/01/antifa-not-fighting-freedom-communist-revolution/

Actually, here is a PRO-ANTIFA article from vox (very liberal) which clearly disproves the assertion that antifa only want to educate people ..
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/25/16189064/antifa-charlottesville-activism-mark-bray-interview


quote from antifa boston:

Let's get one thing clear. Antifa is an Anarcho-Communist cause. Those on the left who call us "patriots", step the FUCK away. #BostonResist

 — @AntifaBoston

For the record my avatar showing a man hanging from a tree represents the sacrificed god, Odin to be exact.

On another point we have a black nationalist spreading propaganda in our midst. The arguments are hollow and racist. Whites have done many good things trying to equalize the races in this nation. Let me repeat, Whites have done this, not blacks. It was the white man who shed his and his brothers blood to end slavery throughout the white world, not just the United States. Whites have implemented Affirmative Action, Contract Set - Asides, lower standards to assist in entering colleges or even graduating high school. If I were to honestly take what is being presented in this discussion as the gospel truth I would be left with only one conclusion, blacks just cannot cut it in a civilized world unless the great white hope steps in and makes the changes for them. That is what I am seeing written here, always the oppressed victim is unable to do or change unless whitey does it for them. Always demanding and asking but never trying. I have noticed that the majority of the worlds races do not think very highly of the black, why is this? Perhaps we could look over the globe and see that almost all the worlds regions have at one time built great civilizations except for Sub - Saharan Africa. Why is this? No Egypt does not count, blacks were not "Kangs" or "Israelites", they are what they are. This is a painful truth for those who wish to live in equality with all men.

The constant demand and victim hood mentality does not improve the black position in society. The refusal to take personal responsibly and the constant excuses for why this cannot be done and why as a race they are statistically more likely to commit crimes of all shapes and forms. Yes other races commit the same crimes, all humans are susceptible to this illness. However, blacks as a percentage are more likely to do so. On top of this is the tendency to act as if they are complete savages running amok in the streets. This is straight up Third World behavior and has no place in civilization.

Blacks in America, those poor oppressed souls who are victims of the evil white man surely are much worse off than their fellows in Africa. After all, that land must be a virtual paradise of blackness compared to the land of the white. Never mind the fact that many of our own third world areas are run by black politicians, police chiefs or at best some left wing SJW with no clue of the reality in the streets.

An apology is in order, yes I believe so. Blacks owe the white man an apology for the excessive crime, the overwhelming financial burden placed upon our nation and the spiritual depravity inflicted upon our people. Stop with the lame excuses, take responsibility for your own, do something besides whine and complain about how the white man keeps you down and refuses to let you up. BALONEY!

As I have already stated, if I was to take these arguments in any seriousness then I could only conclude that blacks are incapable of competing and thriving in civilization. Is this true? If so then why should we as a society be forced to live with such a failed evolutionary branch?

As far as the police are concerned, what can I say? They fear young black males for a very good reason, they are dangerous, murderous thugs with poor impulse control and no thought beyond this moment of excitement. So yeah they are going to get shot and here in Texas you are just as likely to get shot dead by a civilian. Quit acting like thugs and criminals, raise your children correctly, quit making excuses, they do not fix anything, they only pass the blame for your own bad behavior onto others. Childishness it is, a very dangerous form of childishness and nothing more.

Of course I cannot say that all blacks are like this, I have already gave a very brief history of my encounters with blacks so I feel no need to defend my views further.

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
---Miyamoto Mushashi.

Perhaps you are correct, but to be clear I am not a Social Justice Warrior nor some little snowflake. I have fifty years in the trenches and my experience shows me the truth. That is what we all want is it not, the truth? No, I don't think so. If I had known beforehand that this temple was infested with anti - white racism, snowflake mentality and groveling whites I would have shunned it from the get go. I had thought this could be a neutral place but I have come to realize that it is not. Jedi or not, bad behavior is not acceptable from anyone, not even spoiled little oppressed victims who make excuses and place the blame on others for their own sorry condition.

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
---Miyamoto Musashi

Siptah wrote: Perhaps you are correct, but to be clear I am not a Social Justice Warrior nor some little snowflake. I have fifty years in the trenches and my experience shows me the truth. That is what we all want is it not, the truth? No, I don't think so. If I had known beforehand that this temple was infested with anti - white racism, snowflake mentality and groveling whites I would have shunned it from the get go. I had thought this could be a neutral place but I have come to realize that it is not. Jedi or not, bad behavior is not acceptable from anyone, not even spoiled little oppressed victims who make excuses and place the blame on others for their own sorry condition.

Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
---Miyamoto Musashi

Its not full of "snowflakes". Its full of people that fight the good fight, for equal rights, for justice, and for those that cannot themselves. That is, after all, what the Jedi do. They went where there was oppressed and helped. They defended the defenceless, fought for those that could not. And that is what we do, inspired by the cinematic Jedi, and do their work here on Earth.

EDIT: As for the Musashi quote... well, it goes both ways. The truth is not what you want it to be. Perhaps what you believe is not the truth, so you must either bend to what you currently think is the lie, or live one yourself.

Siptah wrote: If I had known beforehand that this temple was infested with anti - white racism, snowflake mentality and groveling whites I would have shunned it from the get go

Firstly, there is no institutional anti-white racism anywhere in the Western hemisphere. There is no "snowflake mentality", except the one you're displaying right now by getting ultra-buttmad that people are disagreeing with you. Our beliefs aren't secret; you can see in the Doctrine that this is a Temple that believes in equality.

If you don't like it, you're welcome to leave. Otherwise, take your "fifty years in the trenches" and settle in for a fight on this.

Arisaig wrote: Its not full of "snowflakes"

I consider myself more of a cornflake. Or maybe a cinnamon toast crunch.

We have a lot of work to do, to ensure that the world is a better place for everyone. And it's ain't getting done by jumping to sweeping generalizations about a group of people. You have good elements and bad elements on all sides. Sadly, the louder, angrier ones are usually the ones that go viral, and make their movement look bad.

ZealotX wrote: Here's the sentence I'm disagreeing with so we're on the same page.

" I think this is the base reason why people take an equality approach to dealing with discrimination, because it does not pretend that any one type of discrimination is more hurtful or important then the others and does not pretend to know the suffering of others."

I disagree with this whole thought process and question its very origins.

First. Please note that BLM is being criticized. I do NOT agree with the criticisms but more than that I think the criticisms come from a racist ideology that permeates society and filters through it from the most irrational tribal mind (trickle down) to even the rational sincere, thoughtful and caring nonracist individuals such as yourself.

Before I explain further let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Nah, not in my case at least.... but since it was my quote I will explain; I'm coming at it from being exposed to the designing of, implementing measures to action, and educating industry in, wide ranging anti-discrimination policy as part of government. If anything I say seems to allude to something like 'not seeing race', it does not mean that I ignore it, but rather view the factors in a higher resolution of detail then race alone (or at least try too).

Siptah wrote: For the record my avatar showing a man hanging from a tree represents the sacrificed god, Odin to be exact.

Are you a white nationalist?

Siptah wrote: On another point we have a black nationalist spreading propaganda in our midst. The arguments are hollow and racist. Whites have done many good things trying to equalize the races in this nation. Let me repeat, Whites have done this, not blacks. It was the white man who shed his and his brothers blood to end slavery throughout the white world, not just the United States. Whites have implemented Affirmative Action, Contract Set - Asides, lower standards to assist in entering colleges or even graduating high school.

I agree with you on all this. I consider all forms of racism to be greater or smaller pushes towards race nationalism, which i consider fundamentally un-American. I think the race nationalists on both sides are a huge problem for American society.

Siptah wrote: If I were to honestly take what is being presented in this discussion as the gospel truth I would be left with only one conclusion, blacks just cannot cut it in a civilized world unless the great white hope steps in and makes the changes for them. That is what I am seeing written here, always the oppressed victim is unable to do or change unless whitey does it for them. Always demanding and asking but never trying. I have noticed that the majority of the worlds races do not think very highly of the black, why is this? Perhaps we could look over the globe and see that almost all the worlds regions have at one time built great civilizations except for Sub - Saharan Africa. Why is this? No Egypt does not count, blacks were not "Kangs" or "Israelites", they are what they are. This is a painful truth for those who wish to live in equality with all men.

And this is where you start to lose me lol... i understand the impulse to respond in this way but i dont think its helpful, or fair. For me personally, the goal is national unity...civil cooperation... reconciliation....pointing fingers at the other race or talking in a way that suggests the other race is inherently inferior or evil is the exact opposite of what America needs.

Siptah wrote: The constant demand and victim hood mentality does not improve the black position in society. The refusal to take personal responsibly and the constant excuses for why this cannot be done and why as a race they are statistically more likely to commit crimes of all shapes and forms. Yes other races commit the same crimes, all humans are susceptible to this illness. However, blacks as a percentage are more likely to do so. On top of this is the tendency to act as if they are complete savages running amok in the streets. This is straight up Third World behavior and has no place in civilization.

I feel there must be a middle ground here. On the one hand, i agree with you that society cannot accept excuses for crime..and i do see some black people saying "black people have to sell drugs just to live" and "black people commit crime because white people oppressed us"

On the other hand, there IS a history of oppression that relegated black to poverty and there have been major barriers to black advancement in society..Poverty is always correlated with low education, addiction, and crime. This is true all over the world and for all races. You cant let people make excuses for criminality but you also cant pretend that todays ghettos arent the logical consequences of yesterdays racism. And this is where the opposing sides arent hearing each other because...maybe because they dont want to.
Those who want to really improve things have to hear the truths on both sides so that we can address them realistically.

Siptah wrote: An apology is in order, yes I believe so. Blacks owe the white man an apology for the excessive crime, the overwhelming financial burden placed upon our nation and the spiritual depravity inflicted upon our people. Stop with the lame excuses, take responsibility for your own, do something besides whine and complain about how the white man keeps you down and refuses to let you up. BALONEY!

When i encounter people who want to paint whites as devils, i definitely will point out the positives of the western world.... but blacks dont owe whites an apology lol...thats kind of funny in a way.

Siptah wrote: As I have already stated, if I was to take these arguments in any seriousness then I could only conclude that blacks are incapable of competing and thriving in civilization. Is this true? If so then why should we as a society be forced to live with such a failed evolutionary branch?

Evolutionary branches that are still alive have not failed. More importantly, I object to the suggestion that different skin colors represent fundamentally distinct branches of human evolution.

Siptah wrote: As far as the police are concerned, what can I say? They fear young black males for a very good reason, they are dangerous, murderous thugs with poor impulse control and no thought beyond this moment of excitement.

Is it possible to say this in a way that doesnt make it sound like you mean ALL young black males fit this description?

Siptah wrote: So yeah they are going to get shot and here in Texas you are just as likely to get shot dead by a civilian. Quit acting like thugs and criminals, raise your children correctly, quit making excuses, they do not fix anything, they only pass the blame for your own bad behavior onto others. Childishness it is, a very dangerous form of childishness and nothing more.

Theres a well established link with single parent families and crime... and its obvious (i think) that bad parenting produces, for lack of better word, bad children. When parents dont abandon their kids, and when kids are kept in line by their parents (required to go to school, get a job, stay away from drugs and alcohol, dont have their own kids until theyre adults themselves) they typically do well, no matter what race they are. Theres a huge number of people who dont seem to understand that the most important factors of economic success are based on personal choices, not on race.
But that argument doesnt have to be made in a derisive way.

Siptah wrote: Of course I cannot say that all blacks are like this, I have already gave a very brief history of my encounters with blacks so I feel no need to defend my views further.

It comes across like youre a bit of a racist. I assume people think the same of me though, so im not saying "i believe you are a racist" im only saying its easy to draw that conclusion by the way you phrase your points.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Siptah wrote: For the record my avatar showing a man hanging from a tree represents the sacrificed god, Odin to be exact.

Are you a white nationalist?

Please do not conflate white nationalism, racism, or any other bigotry with reverence of this patheon.

As a black man, I want to say, it's ok to be white.

The reason why most whites don't feel their privilege or don't notice the systemic racism is because technically it doesn't exist.

To explain, the system now is not like the various state systems of old. The laws themselves aren't race specific. In fact they're pretty colorblind now. There's been over a century of work to see to that. The system itself operates in an oppressive way though. Where the law is used to control instead of rectify. Depending on the person using the law, or other parts of the system. You may or may not see examples of "privilege" or "supremacy".. and there are various forms of those two. Jewish, White, Christian, Muslim, etc..

Then there are those "cult"ures just said. The different bubbles, and the powers that shape and control them along with it. Every group has a Group Think bubble. Fear and sensationalism are used to maintain them. Superstition, Pride, Zealotry, and probably more. There a billions, all trapped between whichever bubble(s) they identify with. All interacting with each other. In a lot of ways, being used against each other. When it serves someone's "higher purpose".. I believe we are all connected by a web that some know how to manipulate to their advantage. Maybe they're creating knots to capture people just to magnify their own radiance. I don't know, but people are being moved. The low man and the high. The world is being.. steered.. somehow.. there's a shadow growing.. and it seems.. artificial..

Also, European culture has contributed greatly to our species. As have African, Asian, and Mesopotamian cultures. They've also each done their fair share of atrocities. I believe that's part of the growth process for sentient beings though. We can learn from our ancestors and we should..

steamboat28 wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Siptah wrote: For the record my avatar showing a man hanging from a tree represents the sacrificed god, Odin to be exact.

Are you a white nationalist?

Please do not conflate white nationalism, racism, or any other bigotry with reverence of this patheon.

Indeed. Odin hanged himself. lol