The Problem with Black Lives Matter

The problem here, Hatter, is that people are screaming because civil action have gotten no progress. If you ask me to be civil in order to earn the right to be heard, and I'm civil, and you still ignore me, what recourse do I have?

steamboat28 wrote: The problem here, Hatter, is that people are screaming because civil action have gotten no progress. If you ask me to be civil in order to earn the right to be heard, and I'm civil, and you still ignore me, what recourse do I have?

Well the first thing is no one has a right to be heard. No one has to listen to you unless rights are violated and that is a court matter. Further try not attacking third parties. If its the government you take issue with take your issue up with them. Dont stop people who have nothing to do with it from getting to work, dont put lives at risk by stopping ems from using roads, dont burn third parties cars or smash their windows, and dont attack third parties. So if you want to be heard in a large enough voice for it to be a voting block not attacking those that might join you is a pretty good idea.

Looking if Jediism or the path of the jedi has taught me any thing it has taught me not to judge people
and about one year ago

did the founder of the BLM says " Black Lives Matter Co-founder DEMANDS “White Folks” Stop Saying “All Lives Matter”…It’s Racist!"- marissa jenae johnson says that

it was on my fb page a year ago and I just Laugh it because marissa jenae johnson need to get stoned or something she need to chill out

I originally wasn't going to answer to this because it's fire on each side the pros and cons of this movement. What I don't understand is why this a topic? We're Jedi we aren't based off color skin but, our connection with The living Force. Does The Force have a certain color skin? No. The Force loves variety and it's obvious.

Secondly, From what I have read does attacking business' personal property and people really going to solve the issue? No, it's going to make you look ignorant. What if I ran around saying, "Jedi lives matter"? I have been beaten up on several occasions because of my devotion to Jeddism by other religions, former friends and mocks and ridiculed for my faith in the living Force. Well poor me! maybe I better go commit arson and break some windows in cars, pay a few people off to march around town and cause all sorts of hell? What you think I am kidding? Green goes with everything people. Will I actually do that? No. Because that is not the Jedi way. Does it hurt? Sure does especially those that used to call me friend. But, what is petty violence and racism going to do? Nothing. We all need to re-read MLK's speech again in America and wake up.

I cannot stand racism...I wish it would go away. I love you not based off your color of you skin, whether your from America or you from Africa. All life is sacred in my eyes and it's a shame it has to go down like this.

I created this topic as a lesson for myself. Its rather taken off, wouldn't you say?

Rosalyn J wrote: I created this topic as a lesson for myself. Its rather taken off, wouldn't you say?

Indeed and its created valuable ideas from all sides. One does not have to agree with people or ideas to learn from them. So thanks for creating it

MadHatter wrote:

Atticus wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: People resort to violence when they are afraid or feel like no one is listening to them. The violence will stop once we start listening and ease them through those fears, but recognizing the causes of the violence is necessary to stopping it.

That is the sentiment of id stop beating you if you do what I say. In short the story of every abusive relationship Ive ever heard. Ive heard the same excuse of abusers were abused themselves and are scared/angry. etc etc. too. Guess what? Does not make it right nor does it mean anyone has to take it. NO ONE deserves to be a punching bag because of someone else's issues. Nor is there anything in the Jedi creed or common sense that dictates you should be

I don't think either perspective is wrong. Understanding why tensions might escalate into violence is not the same as tolerating it.

Understanding is not listening to. I do not need to listen to a bully or abuser. If you want to be listened to you need to be civil. If I walked up to you screaming at you do you think you would listen or would you get out of there? Further violence is not ok outside of defense of self or others so no I will not understand it. I will not condone or accept it. No one should have to deal with that. And taking it out on third parties is sure as heck not going to get you listened to.

Everything you have said here is perfectly understandable. You are a reasonable person and you expect logic and reason from others as most of us here do.

No one is condoning "extreme" actions. However, I feel like this audience in particular should have a good fundamental understanding of balance and how things come into balance.

When a pendulum swings so far to the right it will probably swing a least a little bit left. What I want to remind you is that when we're talking about BLM we're talking about REACTIONS, not actions. If you do something to me my reaction may be very muted in comparison with someone else. Why? I have a pretty high tolerance for such things and therefore with a high level of discipline and self-control my reactions are usually muted. I transfer that external conflict into an internal conflict and deal with it on a level of ideas.

Now... if BLM had an army of people who are just like me then every one of the thousands of protesters would have been perfect.

Not the case. The more people you add to any concoction the more potential you have for explosion.

When you deal with a handful of people you can get to know each one, train them for whatever you're going to do, and they'll follow your lead. I think many people are assuming the features of a small organization as a foundation for judging BLM as if it is capable of controlling people who are hurt, who are scared, and who are angry.

Slavery is a given. But for at least 350 years black people have been dealing with an underlying toxic attitude and mentality that exists to this day. You can legislate away slavery and even segregation (to some extent). But you CANNOT legislate away the toxic mentality of racism. For hundreds of years black people have been beaten and hung on trees. For hundreds of years, they were beaten until their skin was ripped from their bodies. You cannot help but to question the morality and even the humanity of a people who do this and who allow this to happen as part of their culture and society. Seeing your children born into this is difficult enough. But now let's add insult to injury.

Many of the people who led the lynchings were police officers. They put on hoods to hide their identity. Why wear a mask? Because as long as we cannot prove who's doing it to us we cannot get justice based on the rules of this criminal justice system. And when the judges and police and prosecutors are friends, you have to try to have faith that they will somehow put their relationships aside and do their jobs. However, time and time again.... we see... they do not. And now, even without the hoods, police officers are still lynching and murdering us, not simply because we're black, but based on cultural biases that prejudice black men as being a threat to their (default: white) society.

For hundreds of years black people fought within the system, getting denied at every level. Black people protested peacefully. Even then... they were beaten by the police during peaceful protests, during marches. Hoses and dogs were unleashed on black people during the civil rights movement.

Worried about 3rd party's property??? BLACK PEOPLE WERE THE PROPERTY!!

So while I can sympathize with someone who is "innocent" you'll have to excuse me when I say this is NOTHING compared to the experience of black people in America.

And I would argue that over the years black people have had tremendous discipline, as a group, and tremendous respect for the law, under the circumstances because it's relative... not absolute.

We see a world controlled by money and lawyers who poke holes in the law whenever it suits their client. That's why it was such a victory when OJ got off. Whether he did it or not (hasn't been proven) most people were sure he did it but he was able to afford a legal team that did for him the same thing that has been done for many others who were rich. And it's always okay when whites get off after killing black people (may not be okay to you but seems fine to the majority by the way the conversation literally DIES without black people trying desperately to be heard).

It is only now thanks to technology that we can even show what's going on in our communities and how we're being policed DIFFERENTLY from whites. And it is only conflict that forces the truth to come out. So yeah... I'm sorry if a few windows get busted and Nike loses about $3000 when they make millions from the black community with shoes that cost over $140. But compare this to how the US fights terrorism. Let's be honest. How many women and children have died as part of "collateral damage"?

And because America isn't doing this offensive strikes with the stated purpose of killing "younglings" it seems to be okay. Meanwhile, a few crazies have gone after cops (nothing to do with BLM), and a few agitators and instigators who want some new shoes or TVs go to rallies hoping to start riots and some property is damaged. BLM didn't ask for that. It was not their stated purpose or agenda. But because they're black, everything that black people do, whether connected to them or not, they're judged to be at fault for. Do you know who is really responsible for keeping the peace? The POLICE.

Peacekeeping is, of course, one of your primary functions. But most cops would rather roll on a nice, straightforward, convenience store robbery than a “keep the peace” call.

- policemag.com

Where is the law when crimes are committed by the US? Where is the punishment when an agency paid by the majority acts and behaves in a manner where even human life is collateral damage and is destroyed far greater than any riot could match? Do the ends justify the means? It sure seems that way.

And even then my argument has consistently been not to defend the unlawful behavior but argue against it being unfairly used against BLM while no one has ever offered advice/solutions on how BLM (without state authority) could prevent these things or control people's behavior. And at the same time I get why people are frustrated and angry. And the truth is that when organizations like BLM follow all the rules and nothing "newsworthy" happens....? There's less talk and it actually makes it so much easier for people to completely ignore. Everyone here should ask themselves whether we would still be talking about "BLACK LIVES MATTERS" if NOTHING ever happened at any of their events. Seriously. Would we?

Just think about it. I hear and respect what you're saying... but think about what I'm saying.

Sven One wrote: I originally wasn't going to answer to this because it's fire on each side the pros and cons of this movement. What I don't understand is why this a topic? We're Jedi we aren't based off color skin but, our connection with The living Force. Does The Force have a certain color skin? No. The Force loves variety and it's obvious.

Secondly, From what I have read does attacking business' personal property and people really going to solve the issue? No, it's going to make you look ignorant. What if I ran around saying, "Jedi lives matter"? I have been beaten up on several occasions because of my devotion to Jeddism by other religions, former friends and mocks and ridiculed for my faith in the living Force. Well poor me! maybe I better go commit arson and break some windows in cars, pay a few people off to march around town and cause all sorts of hell? What you think I am kidding? Green goes with everything people. Will I actually do that? No. Because that is not the Jedi way. Does it hurt? Sure does especially those that used to call me friend. But, what is petty violence and racism going to do? Nothing. We all need to re-read MLK's speech again in America and wake up.

I cannot stand racism...I wish it would go away. I love you not based off your color of you skin, whether your from America or you from Africa. All life is sacred in my eyes and it's a shame it has to go down like this.

@Sven One

I understand your hesitation but this is an important discussion and honestly, I respect you too much to intentionally let my fire burn you. So no need to fear.

Secondly, I really hope your assumption of "attacking business property" isn't an assumption against BLM. There is a clear motive to starting a riot. There is a clear (profit) motive to breaking into a shoe store. These motives are clearly personal. Unless you see BLM all wearing new Nikes there is a 0% chance that there was ever a meeting in which BLM officials said "what we really need to do is riot and break into a shoe store so that 5 guys can get some new shoes".

Yes, this makes "you" look ignorant, but who... is "you"???

See racial bias tends to paint with a wider brush than necessary. Imagine if there was a member of this site who, Yoda forbid, started inexplicably killing younglings because he or she saw Anakin do it? Sure, it would never happen. Everyone on this site is very well hinged. But what if it did? Would we have to explain ourselves? Would we have to convince people that we weren't all crazy? Would we be treated like the guilty party because of our affiliation or association? You may never have said one word to that person but the implication would be that you're both Jedi. Think about that.

Now imagine, every time a black person commits a crime, ALL OTHER black people are somehow guilty by association. This is what the racial bias does. It gets to the point where if you're black you don't have to do anything suspicious in order for someone to think you're guilty (of something).

If you ran around saying "Jedi Lives Matter" you would look pretty silly TO ME. "YOU" as an individual. I wouldn't blame other Jedi for that. I wouldn't blame this site for that. That's something you decided to do on your own, not what you were taught/instructed/influenced/etc. to do by the organization. But for some strange odd reason, when a black person does something clearly ignorant or self-serving... BLM is blamed. And this is what I want people to think about, ponder, marinate on, etc.

Why the hell are people blaming BLM for the actions of a few individuals and yet we aren't supposed to blame the police for the many racists and the many shooting of unarmed black men we have seen? It's like for some reason people actually believe that an unarmed black man, for some reason, would attack an armed police officer who he doesn't even know and has no personal grievance with. The idea that seems to be bred into whites is that black men are irrational animals who will attack you without thought of the consequences at the slightest provocation. In reality, the animals seem to be on the other side, shooting us in the back, on the ground, in a car, on the playground, in a walmart, etc. where black people have NO HISTORY of the random terrorism they seem to expect out of these individuals. They shoot first and we ask questions later.

So if you wish racism to go away we must first start applying individual actions to INDIVIDUALS. Because rioting isn't part of black culture and isn't something we teach our kids.

@ ZealotX,

These are all valid points Zealot and much to consider. I do think it does start with the Individual for certain. If the Individual can change it could spark others to change. I would guess rioting is our right after all they're still having anti-trump marches. To blame the entire race I guess is a little harsh. It's just a such a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around because I don't see people as "black" or "Asian" or "White" I look at them as people just like me. I am a Jedi but, I am also a person. Thank you Zealot, you cause me to dig deeper and learn from perspectives that I don't normally think of an "outside the box" type thinking if you will.

I also think its mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity. Assuming skin color was the predominant indicator of that persons personality would seem racist, so it makes sense not to assume it... and so I'm firmly stuck firm on the togetherness, unity, and the 'human race is the only race' position.
In my contact with gender anti-discrimination specialists, anything else is counterproductive when it comes to discriminatory behaviours in the workplace - and can be better handled by inclusive strategies IMO. Nothing works perfect all the time, but so long as best practise is constantly refined, redesigned and reapplied it should lead to the best outcomes fastest.

But controversially perhaps, I don't think its racism that is the systematic problem, rather widespread gun proliferation.... with an Australian women being shot in the US yesterday I guess I suddenly feel like having a say hmmm, cant help but think about it when confronted with it as it doesn't happen hardly ever over here in Australia.

As obviously the Police naturally have to expect more guns simply because there are more guns on the street. You cannot have it both ways, everyone with guns and relaxed Police... and as Police need to be pragmatic and ahead of the unknown likely threat for their own survival so they can do their job in protecting the community - I'd say that is the sytematic problem, ie why it happens so much in so many places by people of all color to people of all color.

The expected threat in the US being so high in regards to guns would have to invite more accidental shootings.... and that is not even considering the stupid things people do on popular drugs making it hard for Police to handle a situation! Nor that the black American community is probably over represented in the the lower wealth brackets and its those wealth brackets which are more prone to drug and crime? All logically leading to a higher proportion of shootings of black males by Police on their own without the need for racism. But racism does exist in the community for sure, but it does need to remembered correlations do not imply causation, so I think those other things are at play but not really being talked about because of perhaps the US gun culture? Just offering a different perspective.

So following that theory, the very worst thing anyone could do is turn to violence or make it about racism if it was not, because racism can promote violence as we've seen by the hijacking of the potential of the BLM by rioting crowds... because whatever the intent, if violence is the outcome and problem is that Police are facing too higher risk to avoid accidental shootings, then its just going to create more accidental shootings!!! The problem of using blanket categorization to label a problem is the very same things as racism, it breeds contempt by those being generalized and categorized.... I mean listening to some the music coming out of the US, if I replaced ''white girl' with 'black girl' in some of those lyrics I'm sure it would never make it onto the air. The worst thing to combat racism is casual racism against majorities, but it seems more prevalent then I would have ever imagined.

Just thinking aloud, as in the aftermath of an reportedly unarmed (likely innocent as she rang 911 in the first place) Australian women shot point blank in the stomach by a seated Police officer while she was leaning next to the Police vehicle talking to the other officer about what she'd heard to ring 911, in the US yesterday. Sure she was white and he was black and yes it could have been racism, but 'could' is no reason to actively support or promote violence, or passively encourage it either.

Solution, if weapon proliferation is the problem, and if it continues might eventually be something like what happens in the Fifth Element, all interaction with Police is strictly controlled so they can do their job while both protecting themselves, and the community, in the face of diverse types of threats. It would be sad, to require such full compliance for all interaction, but not beyond imagination to see it in the potential future, comply or else;

Language Warning F-word;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8pC8iYQSXI

Sven One wrote: @ ZealotX,

These are all valid points Zealot and much to consider. I do think it does start with the Individual for certain. If the Individual can change it could spark others to change. I would guess rioting is our right after all they're still having anti-trump marches. To blame the entire race I guess is a little harsh. It's just a such a hard thing for me to wrap my mind around because I don't see people as "black" or "Asian" or "White" I look at them as people just like me. I am a Jedi but, I am also a person. Thank you Zealot, you cause me to dig deeper and learn from perspectives that I don't normally think of an "outside the box" type thinking if you will.

Seriously. This is why you, sir, are awesome. You are awesome. It's that simple. All I wanted you to do was consider my argument and you did so with a positive attitude. Do you know how rare that is? We humans have a tendency to be get defensive. You're a champion. If everyone else approached this subject like you have racism would probably go away. Why? Because the solution is actually self-reflection. Black people can't really do much to stop racism besides creating attention and trying to reason with people on an moral/intellectual level. The moral level often fails because morality is relative. Therefore one can hypocritically treat "their own" better than they treat others. I prefer the idea of moral absolutes. The problem is who sets those standards and what is it based on? The truth is that we have to continue to grow and evolve; even our sense of morality in order to keep pace with everything we learn and discover. I thank you wholeheartedly and appreciate your openness and your receptiveness. You are a credit to humanity.

@Adder

As a "person of color" let me address this. And rest assured, even though I cannot speak for an entire race of people you'll find that this perspective is common.

I also think its mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity.

As a black man, I want you to see my color. Not seeing my color is like pretending I don't have one or that there is something wrong with the color I have. The only reason my color wouldn't be important to me is if I had somehow assimilated to the point where I'm under the delusion that I am treated equally in this society. My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.

Not seeing my color is like avoiding eye contact and pretending I don't have eyes. I certainly don't pretend white people aren't white. Believe me, no black person I know is ever really faced with this conundrum. The issue is not what color our skin is, our eyes are, how round or pointy our noses are. The issue is whether or not we attach negativity to these physical features or imagine that a bald head means you have a low IQ. That's ridiculous right? But how is it that I actually argued against a group of white people who honestly thought black people are lower in IQ hence dumber as a race? I don't know what my own IQ is; don't care. However, from my experience intelligence is mostly nurture. I'm a programmer and a graphic artist. The more I think like a computer the better I get at it. For many people their job/field of study is going to dictate their intellect, not their skin color.

We look different just like snowflakes and flowers. This is to be seen and appreciated and loved. I would never teach a child to be color blind. For what? They're missing something beautiful. You're taking away something beautiful.

I'm more of a chocolate brown. I'm more attracted to lightskin women, whether black or hispanic. And obviously, the way people tan, I'm not the only one who likes color. In fact it is fair to say that I'm attracted, like many people, to the exotic. There's so much beauty around the world, in different cultures, different types of hair, different color eyes, fuller lips, fuller hips, etc. Beauty is not 1 shape or 1 color. It's in ALL the shapes and ALL the colors. And when we put all the colors together we make more shapes and more colors and it is a very very beautiful thing. And I am very sad for anyone, who, especially for the sake of political correctness, doesn't want to see all of that beauty.

... or those who can't see it without automatically attaching ugliness and darkness and evil to it.

Catherine Zeta Jones = beautiful
Selma Hayek = beautiful
Angelina Jolie = beautiful
Tyra Banks = beautiful
Beyonce = beautiful

Idris Elba, Taye Diggs, Jesse Williams,
Nicholas Gonzalez,Ryan McPartlin, Ryan Rodney Reynolds,
Josh Holloway = all handsome

Their color is part of what makes them look good. Women even use makeup to ADD more color for the simple fact that it makes them look better. And sometimes you see them without their makeup and it's like WHOA.... but you get the point. Color is a positive thing whether it's brown or peach or ivory (jury's still out on whatever orange Trump is). Look at it. See it. Don't shy away from it or think it helps the person to ignore it. It shouldn't be ignored. That's the other way that racism hides itself. If you have a bias, start from there. Realize that all black people aren't pretty to look at. But the same is true of every race. And all black people aren't perfect citizens. But the same is true of every race. And at the end of the day it is our imperfections (not our color) that make us all the same.

ZealotX wrote: My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.

Who is? I wasn't. I see skin color as the color of skin but that is not what is being talked about I thought... I thought we were talking about differences of culture.

What I meant is that I don't assert the associated culture as an important part of the persons personality from the skin color. I judge people on action and speech, not attributes that they had no choice over, like sex or skin color. The working definition of not judging by skin color!!!!

So back to the topic, unless someone exhibits a culture in their personality I'm not going to assume they identify and want to be identified as anything in particular other then an equal, or as a functionary in some capacity.

As IMO we should be all equal, and treated as individuals, on our individuality. If that means someone wants to identify as part of some nature of group, then that is fine, it will increase the chance other people will be able to relate to them as the larger the group the more widespread knowledge about them will be. That is why I have the opinion I do, and how over using labels of color is making the problem worse... skin color should't matter so much because as you say people shouldn't be judged on it, and therefore I say if you cannot judge someone on it, then how can you identify them by it. People are individuals, skin colors are attributes, and appropriate use needs to examine the conditions of that usage otherwise it probably is some type of category error, which is in essence discrimination. I don't think we are disagreeing too much, but using different language perhaps

https://shadowandact.com/hbo-confederate-drama-game-of-thrones-producers

HBO plans to make a series about the Civil war and about slavery and people are PISSED,
Look I wish i still had HBO to this Upcoming show, I just like history I

am NOT a racist, and Some People are saying that they will Cancel Home Box office because of this show About Slavery, Look This Slavery BS and Black History every February is what causes Groups Like black lives matter,

when will people think about this, It is the choices you make in life that make you r life Heaven or hell, not your damn skin
color!

some people are proud of the Stars & Bars because Our grandmothers and grandfathers came from the
byt BLM see every thing white as racist

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote: My color will matter less and less when it ceases to be an issue on which black people are JUDGED. See my color. Don't JUDGE my color.

Who is? I wasn't. I see skin color as the color of skin but that is not what is being talked about I thought... I thought we were talking about differences of culture.

What I meant is that I don't assert the associated culture as an important part of the persons personality from the skin color. I judge people on action and speech, not attributes that they had no choice over, like sex or skin color. The working definition of not judging by skin color!!!!

So back to the topic, unless someone exhibits a culture in their personality I'm not going to assume they identify and want to be identified as anything in particular other then an equal, or as a functionary in some capacity.

As IMO we should be all equal, and treated as individuals, on our individuality. If that means someone wants to identify as part of some nature of group, then that is fine, it will increase the chance other people will be able to relate to them as the larger the group the more widespread knowledge about them will be. That is why I have the opinion I do, and how over using labels of color is making the problem worse... skin color should't matter so much because as you say people shouldn't be judged on it, and therefore I say if you cannot judge someone on it, then how can you identify them by it. People are individuals, skin colors are attributes, and appropriate use needs to examine the conditions of that usage otherwise it probably is some type of category error, which is in essence discrimination. I don't think we are disagreeing too much, but using different language perhaps

I agree, that's not what you meant. The context you provided was

I also think it's mostly counterproductive to see color in a person, unless the person makes it clear its intrinsic and important to their identity. Assuming skin color was the predominant indicator of that person's personality would seem racist, so it makes sense not to assume it... and so I'm firmly stuck firm on the togetherness, unity, and the 'human race is the only race' position.

I think you have every good intention in the world. And I think we share the view that race is a manufactured label that shouldn't exist. The human race 'should be' the only race. Do I agree with that 100% Ab-so-lutely. And I think this is the difficulty for black people. If I could carbon copy you a million times I would do that and it would be a significant blow to racism. Black people are so tired of racism it's ridiculous. The conflict is that everyone isn't like you and we cannot tell who is who and which is which until the inner nature and biases come out. And in the systems that affect us we often see the wrong attitudes and biases come out. If you're a black person who is hyper-exposed to what may be a minority group who are overtly racist it is natural to assume there is a larger group that is covertly racist and who you only have indirect contact with. After all, why do so many whites move out of cities? Why do so many whites always jump on the side of the police? We see certain patterns that don't make sense.

Then on top of that, when someone says "I don't see color"... this is something we hear a lot as a defense that is typically a lie and its meaning is obfuscated by the insensitivity of the literal statement. For me, I can see color without applying the full history of all white people to you simply because you share the same skin color. Just because you're white doesn't mean you personally raped slaves, treated humans like cattle, stole land from natives, etc. etc. Someone else did that. And on top of that slave ownership was a minority of whites. But even though it was a minority there was still a war, jim crow, civil rights movement, a lot of other efforts necessary just to get to where we are today. So it feels like we're ice skating up hill because we're actually opposed by the white majority. That's how it feels/seems.

Even though many whites today have never owned a slave in their life they still have this attitude that black people are inferior. Again, I've witnessed this myself. A white kid in a pool told my kid that white people were better with his dad right there and his dad offered no correction.

So yeah... until we have equality and until white people can get on the same page we will remain "black people". And because of all the racists and all those who believe themselves to be superior, even though this thought is an exercise in ignorance, my color will continue to mean something to them and it will continue to be a constant reminder to me about where we stand in this society, and that we cannot see all white people as just people because many have already chosen to side against us.

When people "don't see color" it's like they don't see us at all; they don't see our struggle, our pain, our perseverance, or how far we have come. It is the history of white America, BOTH the good, the bad, and the ugly, that has created what America is today. It has created classes in which the rich are getting richer and treating everyone else like garbage. But it also creates multiculturalism and paths to prosperity. A lot of people are scared of black and brown people taking "their jobs" because in their minds America belongs to white people. And because the people who tend to feel this way tend to be at the bottom of white society (including teachers and cops), because black people, income wise, also tend to be at the bottom with them, who do you think we are mostly exposed to? Who do you think we are mostly dealing with? And if we're mostly dealing with the ignorant racists and no one steps in to help us and the smarter and wiser people (such as you all on this site) see no evil, hear no evil, then of course this problem is not going away and will inevitably spiral out of control.

And then what is amazing is that we are somehow (without the authority of the State) supposed to keep our own people in line (because black people are magic and can control each other's behavior just by generating the right brain wave pattern) when the majority of whites who have all the power, including the authority of the state, cannot and do not control the behavior of the minority who use whatever power and authority they have to oppress us. This is what is happening when Black Lives Matter gets blamed for the behavior of black folk to who come to a rally. But the only reason the rally exists is because white police officers are out of control and the desire to control them is simply not there. Hence the need for BLM.

But when movements are contrary to the "powers that be" and the "the man" wants to hit back, they don't do it directly. They use what they OWN. Everything they own becomes a tool and a chess piece and this is what we, the masses, have to understand and pay attention to so that we don't fall for it. PROPAGANDA.

When the Occupy Wall Street movement gained steam Breitbart attacked it, talking about rapes and sexual assaults going on in these camps. I'm not going to sit here and compare sexual assault to riots. The point is that organizations cannot prevent these things because at the end of the day, protestors are still human. Humans are allowed to be angry at something and want to fight for a cause. No one has (yet) created a morality meter that you can shove up someone's anus and detect how good or evil they are. But the point is not simply that organizations cannot prevent bad behavior. The point is that the "powers that be" will use these things to attack the organization (which is the head) in order to attack THE MOVEMENT. The Occupy organization made a lot of mistakes... because they were human. But we cannot keep using the excuse, "oh they should have been better organized". Every time we say that, someone wins (the powers that be) and we lose. All they have to do is turn us against ourselves.

When people judge Black Lives Matter... why do they judge it? Because it's not explicitly THEIR organization. They don't feel tied to it. They don't feel included. That's why it was attacked for simply having "Black" in the name. Very smart opponents were like "AHA! We can use that against them!" See... there was already an "us" vs "them" and they were determined to draw racial lines so that the white masses would have something to criticize. Imagine if they did the same thing to the Civil Rights Movement.

Now you can look it up as "the civil rights movement", "the American Civil Rights movement", "the African-American civil rights movement", or the "black civil rights movement".

On what planet would these differences in name change what they were protesting?

Jesus (whether he existed or not) has a very nice quote that fits in here.

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

This means that it doesn't have to be happening to you. If you're not racist, sexist, whatever other-ist, then it IS happening to you, because like you said... we are one race.

So Adder, you said were basically in agreement but using different words. I agree with you. Further, I'm trying to point out that different words can change the conversation. People can take it a different way but it doesn't change what you mean. And if what you mean is good, why purpose to attack it? BLM was publicly attacked over its name and further publicly attacked over an imaginary failure to prevent criminal activity at its events. Again... Occupy had the same issue. Were they at fault? Whose job is it to protect and serve? Whose job is it to keep the peace? Whose job is it to be a deterrent against crime? There are people who get paid to do that and they have to wear badges to do it legally. This blame game is nothing more than a political attack by those who very much do not like these movements because they do not want to empower whatever the "them" happens to be; whether it's black people or the 98%.

Instead of the 98% (a minority of capital) and every other minority, every other movement, etc. ever winning against these SAME people who opposed all of us... we instead are manipulated into fighting each other, attacking each other's movements and organizations, and blaming each other for failure after failure to change anything. When someone starts ranting about the "problems of black lives matter" but they offer no solutions... that's how you know the political attacks against "US" (all of us who are decidedly not with "them") are working. I believe at some point, the momentum in this conversation will slowly start to change based on the thoughts and opinions of a number of you posting. I believe the momentum will shift from "yeah... the problem with black lives matter is _______" to "the problem with the opposition to black lives matter is ________", because why should any of us be opposed to BLM? Have you spent any time on their website? Do you know, from their own mouths, what their stated agenda is? Or are we allowing pundits and talking heads to feed us this negative propaganda so that we will repeat these same talking points so that BLM will fail and die in relative obscurity? No movement is perfect and if all it takes to kill it is to point out its imperfections? Then we will be the death of every positive effort to change the world. And we, being Jedi, at the very least... should have a mental defense against such manipulation so that we can be a force always for good.

HBO plans to make a series about the Civil war and about slavery and people are PISSED,Look I wish i still had HBO to this Upcoming show, I just like history I
am NOT a racist, and Some People are saying that they will Cancel Home Box office because of this show About Slavery, Look This Slavery BS and Black History every February is what causes Groups Like black lives matter,

Contrary to your belief shows about slavery and black history month do not cause groups like BLM. What causes groups like BLM is experiencing contemporary inequality and racially based oppression. Disregarding this or saying it is 'really' something else is the whole reason why BLM is necessary to point out that which you currently do not see. Secondly, this implies there is something wrong with BLM or that black people are stupid and imagining that we are being treated a certain way or that we're all lying about it, which is an argument I have yet to see argued successfully. Third, your comments underscore a common view that many whites seem to have that the way to end these problems is to pretend we don't have these problems. This has been US policy for many years. And all through those years black people have still suffered. Even if you don't talk about it, racists whites do! They talk. They influence white children. White kids adopt the same racial biases the last generation had. And without any understanding of black history, they have no context on which to draw from to see that black people are not inferior.

The common misunderstanding of people about Black History Month is that black history begins with slavery. It does not. White people take pride in where they came from. Studies have even shown that this understanding of one's origins is important to proper development. I would be all for giving up black history month if black history was taught in schools. Because it isn't, this allows black kids to think their history doesn't matter or is of lesser importance and that America is all about the prosperity of the white race. Even if America is multicultural, our history books most certainly are not. And if the only black icons you know of are Martin Luther King, Malcom X, and Harriet Tubman, or that one of these refused to stand on a bus you really don't know anything about black people which allows racism to continue. If I mentioned Marcus Garvey or Mansa Musa and you don't who I'm talking about when you state that you like history, then something's wrong. And it isn't something is wrong with you. You're fine. There's something wrong with the system. Even the maps of the world were inaccurately drawn to diminish the size of Africa. Why? Is it because racism doesn't exist? How often do you see the great modern cities in Africa? How often do they show them on TV? Almost never? Or never?

when will people think about this, It is the choices you make in life that make you r life Heaven or hell, not your damn skin
color!

This statement is better known as "white privilege". If I offend you I apologize. Very few black people will say this because it is demonstrably untrue. Your experience may be different because people are treating you differently because you are white. You do not perceive a difference because you've ONLY been treated the same way and you've ONLY been white. I have only been black. If all my friends were white I would have no one to tell me stories about how they were mistreated or how someone at work called them a nigger. You're simply not going to be exposed to that world if you stay where that world can't touch you. Many people have been enslaved, raped, and murdered because of their skin color. But since slavery is over we'd like to think that color no longer matters. That is simply not the case. Look at any prison in America and see how your color can protect you or get you killed. And then look at how many innocent people are sent there because of corrupt cops. I invite you to read about "Racial Profiling", Race and Economic Justice, Race and Inequality in Education, Affirmative Action, Race and Criminal Justice, and American Indian Rights.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-criminal-justice
https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-economic-justice
https://www.aclu.org/issues/racial-justice/race-and-inequality-education



I look forward to the HBO show. Have you seen Roots? Have you seen Underground? Why is it that whites appear to fear and hate these shows depicting slavery and oppression more than blacks? When Netflix got the satirical series "Dear White People" people started losing their minds over it. Let me tell you this. Black people are not mentally fragile. Black people know exactly what happened during slavery and how bad it was. We're more concerned about actual racists who have the power to negatively impact our daily lives. Honestly, there are many black actors who can't even get jobs without these kinds of shows! And a lot of these shows and movies are created, at least in part, by black people where now we finally have the means to voice and tell our own story. History is usually, for us, "his story". In reality, children got whipped too. A lot of slave masters even fell in love with one of their slaves. It apparently happened even in my family. But the idea that we should just not talk about it and maybe it'll go away? That doesn't work. What we need to do is talk about it and have meaningful conversations so that the ideologies and attitudes that allowed slavery and racism to occur, that this environment will one day be replaced by new ideologies and new attitudes that make these things impossible.

some people are proud of the Stars & Bars because Our grandmothers and grandfathers came from the
byt BLM see every thing white as racist

Nope. BLM sees everything racist as racist. That's why they are specifically targeting police culture; NOT white culture. The problem is that it's not hard to see racism if you are looking for it or if it is looking for you. And moreover, I'm going to assume that you haven't met very many members of Black Lives Matter. I would be impressed if you knew 3 or even 1. So it is interesting that your assumption (because what else could it be? a poll?) is that an entire organization has taken a position that "everything white is racist". Where did you get that idea? And why are you applying that idea to an entire organization? Do you apply that idea to me as well? It is quite the irony that you have proposed. You think that a bunch of black people (perhaps the entire race, I don't know) believes something to be true that isn't. So you think that they are applying a false idea to all whites while you seem to be applying a false idea to all blacks or all black BLM members.


And just reading the responses to BLM I am sickened by the amount of white people on the internet that really believe it's okay to kill young black men as long as you THINK they are "thugs". The way our criminal justice system is supposed to work is that a person is innocent until proven guilty because we don't want to be a society that goes around punishing and killing innocent people. THAT is criminal. THAT deserves to be tried and executed. But tried. In many cases we're not even putting corrupt killer cops on trial. It's not their job to kill people no matter what they think that person has done. And even if a suspect is guilty of something the prescription to every crime certainly isn't death. Selling loose cigarettes or selling marijuana certainly doesn't deserve death. But these cops are criminals because like the criminals they arrest, they too break and don't give a crap about the law.

like I said
it is the choices that you make in life
Hell I grow up with black people nearly all my life with grade school and middle and high school
and some Black people I know Have bills to pay have a job and family and live peaceful lives
and then you got another group of that want to live off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts


and dude it is the same with white folks too. there are white people that Have bills, a job and family and the n you got the red necks with five cars in a yard ve off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts

so, dude, I have seen it all

FTPC wrote: like I said
it is the choices that you make in life
Hell I grow up with black people nearly all my life with grade school and middle and high school
and some Black people I know Have bills to pay have a job and family and live peaceful lives
and then you got another group of that want to live off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts


and dude it is the same with white folks too. there are white people that Have bills, a job and family and the n you got the red necks with five cars in a yard ve off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts

so, dude, I have seen it all

Believe it or not, I have also grown up with black people. MOST black people I know have bills to pay. MOST have a job and a family. I personally have 7 kids (2 biological, 1 step, and my fiance has 2 sets of twins). Most of these dudes are not providing financial support. But it wouldn't be cool to use my personal experience to say "black men don't take care of their responsibilities". That's a sweeping generalization that simply isn't true.

A lot of "people" are living off the system. A lot of "people" are on drugs. Of course it's the same with white folk too. It's the media that often gives off the impression that it's only black people and other minorities so that whites who are ignorant will be against them, assume they are immoral, assume that they're thugs, and its the RACIAL BIASES of people that not only imagine that blacks are inferior, but that also cause decisions to be made against black people based on these racial biases. And that's when truly through no fault of your own, you can be set up for failure because of the color of your skin. You say its all about the choices you make in life. I disagree. The choices you make are a PART of what happens to you. But it is the choices that OTHER PEOPLE make that also impact your life. You can only control so much. Each person's power is limited. When a cop pulls me over I have to submit to his authority because in that span of time what happens to be is going to be based on his decisions. My decision is honestly to survive the encounter. We each play a part in each other's decisions. As a programmer I'm well aware of how one decision can influence another.

But let's say a woman looks sexy as hell with curves upon curves, long hair, makeup, jewelry, and clothes that fit tightly against her skin. She looks good but is she asking to get raped? Of course not. And if someone rapes her he is literally taking away her decision and she is the victim of his decision. Natives didn't end up on the Trail of Tears because of their own decisions. It was because they were the victims of people who wanted to own the land that they were willing to share.

The same way that a surfer doesn't wake up like "hey, I think I'd like to be shark food today".... still he chooses to surf and there 'could' be a shark nearby, No black person wakes up like "hey, I think I'd like to be shot by a cop or a misguided neighborhood watchdog today. Let me go put on a hoodie"... still we choose to live in a place where these things can happen. And there is a word for it when someone treats you a certain way because of the color of your skin. That word is racism and the word exists, not because the victims somehow choose to be treated this way, but because racists choose to treat people this way. And why? Same reason that slaves weren't given the choice to work. Because some IMMORAL person believes they have the right to abuse others. However, they want to justify it, that is a choice and decision they make because they believe they have the POWER to make it. It's all about corruption.

Furthermore, whites have had significantly more time to get out of bad neighborhoods, to conquer chemical dependence, and more resources to assist in doing so. As a race, whites did not start out on the bottom of society. They didn't start the game in last place. Black people are expected to prevent crime in their own communities, escape poverty unassisted and without resources, start with nothing and overcome all obstacles even when the gatekeeper is locking the door based on skin color. Black people are resilient but the problem is that everyone can't go to the NBA or the NFL. Black athletes overcome huge odds to get those spots. And society encourages those spots for us because that's what they believe we can do. When I was growing up my friends looked to footballs or basketballs as their future. I chose computers and I guess you can say that my choice made the difference. But at the same time we grew up in an environment where not every black family could afford a computer and not everyone could really see science and engineering as a possibility. You're talking about people who have been so marginalized that what we can do is thought to be very limited. The bias of society is drilled into us from an early age. Our teachers drill it into us. Do you think they tell us that we're going to be a great writer one day?

I believe black people can do anything but we are still trying to prove that fact to ourselves. And in reality, there are some neighborhoods where life is so tough that everything around you is pulling you into the same vortex of survival that everyone knows works even though, it too, only works for a handful of people. But the lack of opportunities is so devastating that even though drug dealers often only make minimum wage they see it as the only way. And they were born into that family, in that house, in that hood, that color, where the father is gone and they have 3-4 mouths they have to help feed and too young to be legally employed. No one chooses that. I have to make different choices so that my kids can have better opportunities and so they can make different choices and so they'll even believe me when I tell them they can make different choices. Everyone doesn't have that privilege. Everyone can't be as smart, as strong, as fast, as whatever, as those of us who really make it. This system wasn't designed for us to succeed and only the ones who understand that truly do succeed.

I had intended to post in this topic quite a while back. I actually did a lot of research and had much of what i wanted to say written out, but my life got busy and busier and the discussion moved on. My initial basic positions still pretty much stand:

OB1Shinobi wrote: BLM is nested within an overall SJW culture that makes a virtue of being a victim, refuses personal responsibility, eschews critical thinking and rational dialogue, and ignores key facts and details of every issue they go on about. That is the SJW culture, generally speaking [which BLM is an extension of]

As for BLM specifically, they misrepresent the issue of police brutality,(which is incredibly complicated and affects all citizens) they endorse violence (even though they claim otherwise), engaging in and defending rioting and civil anarchy, and allow members to promote blatantly racist and socially divisive ideology [in other words, it is a fundamentally racist movement]. They treat all shootings of black people by police the same regardless of the circumstances....and though their very name suggests that protecting the lives of black people is their primary aim, they actually ignore the [the most relevant] issues that cause the vast majority of black deaths [and suffering]

Overall my problem with them is that they are making race relations in America worse and not better. I do understand many black people dont see anyone else they believe is speaking for them. Its a conundrum i guess.

I have something to add this to the list of BLM stupidities: https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

"White people, here are 10 requests from a Black Lives Matter leader

1. White people, if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty.

2. White people, if you’re inheriting property you intend to sell upon acceptance, give it to a black or brown family. You’re bound to make that money in some other white privileged way.

3. If you are a developer or realty owner of multi-family housing, build a sustainable complex in a black or brown blighted neighborhood and let black and brown people live in it for free.

4. White people, if you can afford to downsize, give up the home you own to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

5. White people, if any of the people you intend to leave your property to are racists assholes, change the will, and will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

6. White people, re-budget your monthly so you can donate to black funds for land purchasing.

7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the fuck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.

8. Backing up No. 7, this should be easy but all those sheetless Klan, Nazi’s and Other lil’ dick-white men will all be returning to work. Get they ass fired. Call the police even: they look suspicious.

9. OK, backing up No. 8, if any white person at your work, or as you enter in spaces and you overhear a white person praising the actions from yesterday, first, get a pic. Get their name and more info. Hell, find out where they work — Get Them Fired. But certainly address them, and, if you need to, you got hands: use them.

10. Commit to two things: Fighting white supremacy where and how you can (this doesn’t mean taking up knitting, unless you’re making scarves for black and brown kids in need), and funding black and brown people and their work."

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This is kind of talk is stupid, entitled, racist, and basically it just makes things worse. We either try to end racism altogether or we pick our prefered racist movements and push them forward. I want to end racism altogether and THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. And yes, black people can definitely be racist too, denying that is also an effort at promoting racism. Here is a black woman using her power to insult the group she resents and to instigate further racial hostilities.

Its not an action, its a reaction? Well, my reaction to her reaction is "f**k you lady" lol are you going to tell me that black peoples lousy reactions are ok but my lousy reaction isnt? Guess what kind of reaction that will get lol.
At some point dont we all have to stop REacting, and start taking responsibility for how we choose to ACT?

1) Barack Obama, Colin Powell, Kanye West, Jesse Jackson, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson all have far more institutional power than i do. Could they be racist towards me? Yes.
The dean at a community college can be racist, and for that matter, so can the the professors. So can bus drivers, restaurant managers, and income tax attorneys. Virtually everyone has got some institutional power, even if only a small amount. You can use the institutional power of a job at burger king to get a coworker fired of prevent someone from being hired or even to just spit in someones food if you want. The money that you make at that job (or any other) is one of the most powerful forma of institutional power in any modern society, which can be used for any number of purposes, such as the employment of a lawyer, the opening of a new company, or the creation of a political lobby. Fun question: who has more institutional power, the KKK or the NAACP? (Im not equating them morally)

2) No one of any race gets to run from the police, no matter how scared they are. Its not allowed to run from the cops, its never going to be allowed, and there are obvious, good reasons for that.

3) Unconscious bias is a great a way for people to accuse each other of racism when there isnt any racism. Difficult as it may be to prove sometimes, actual evidence is the standard of proof for everything, including racism. The harvard test has been proven to be unreliable, and the training that has come of it has been shown to make biases WORSE. If youre looking for racism youll see it everywhere, postulating about what might hypothetically be going on in someones unconscious mind is about as useful and reliable at uncovering the truth as drawing straws or playing spin the bottle.