The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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16 Oct 2017 15:39 - 16 Oct 2017 15:59 #304106 by OB1Shinobi
That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 16 Oct 2017 15:59 by OB1Shinobi.

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16 Oct 2017 16:13 #304112 by JLSpinner

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.


You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)



Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-wo...ites-can-be-racists/

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.


I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this. Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others. The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

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16 Oct 2017 16:50 #304116 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.


You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.



I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-wo...ites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

So what is racism?



Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does. I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done. Racism and white supremacy happen to be part of that legacy, just like the violence in Chicago will forever be a stain on the black community. We can argue about the role government plays on the economy in the inner city and how money is taken from one place to benefit another and schools are failing and all of that. And there are legitimate arguments on both sides. But as long as there are black people doing bad things they're never going to be judged individually. Not going to happen. They're black. I may wish they weren't but they are and the black community has a responsibility to do something about it; whether the police represent our agenda or not.

The first article you posted was a good article... written by a white person in reaction to L’Oreal model Munroe Bergdorf said which was:

When I stated that “all white people are racist”, I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a SYSTEM rooted in white supremacy – designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race. Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist. We also live in a society where men are SOCIALISED to be sexist. Women are SOCIALISED to be submissive. Gay people are SOCIALISED to be ashamed of their sexuality due to heterosexual people’s homophobia. Cisgender people are SOCIALISED to be transphobic. We do not need to be this way. We are not born this way and we can learn to reject it. We are just socially conditioned to think this way from an early age. With the right education, empathy and open mindedness we can unlearn these socialisations and live a life where we don’t oppress others and see things from other people’s points of view.


www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-m...ure-racial-prejudice
www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/im...nconscious-prejudice

These 2 articles deal mainly with the idea that a particular test can predict behavior. I agree with the authors myself. I do believe in conditioned behavior, responses, etc. however, testing them through a conscious action seems silly to me. Your conscious mind isn't exactly a slave to your subconscious. It can overrule many automatic reflexes based on what you consciously think the right answer is. If you're testing me on how many people I'm going to shoot wearing a hijab just the fact that I'm taking a test would help me target those people less because I'm trying to pass a test. Often in schools testing fails because teachers train students for the tests themselves which doesn't mean they truly have a grasp on the subject matter. The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race. On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites. If it's new to you it is only because you were unaware it existed before. And if it shocks you then you should imagine our shock at the things we hear from whites who don't claim to be either white supremacists or racists. At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.
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16 Oct 2017 17:46 - 16 Oct 2017 18:02 #304122 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.



First, I apologize to you OB1Shinobi, but that reply was not in response to you at all. In fact, while I was writing it I didn't know your post even existed. Once I did see it I wrote a response to address what you said. These are obviously lengthy and therefore not quick responses. I apologize for that.

Secondly, if there is a view that this thread is one side vs another, I apologize to you if you got that impression from me. I actually think everyone has been wonderful in this thread. I think the idea that we should always judge success by how many people share our views isn't logical. Some of what I say is venting based on what I've heard, not just here, but from other sources. But I speak more here because my expectations of the people here are much higher. The people are here are generally more enlightened. Not perfect, just as I am not perfect; but more enlightened.

Thirdly, sometimes all we need to hear 'you' say is what you just said about police being out of control. The problem is that black people, not just me personally, are used to that "...but" and a lot of times it's what comes after ANY measure of agreement that is offensive to us. We go to sleep one day thinking we're protesting injustice and inequality and the next day we wake up to find our president telling us we're protesting the flag and the troops. Not only is this news to us but the problem is that it poisons the argument, ends conversations, and gives people justification to continue to ignore the problem by making the protest the new problem. This is the part I am the most sensitive to because it's like we cannot win to save our lives... literally... TO SAVE OUR LIVES.

Lastly, I agree 80% with your solution. I have personally been working within the economic empowerment side of things. But I can also tell you that a large part of the problem is envy and jealousy and fear. It was the same when workers unions first got started. The progress made by black people is only half the story. The other half is the resistance. The other half is white workers feeling displaced like the popular South Park chant "They took our jobs!" If you understand it, this sentiment is very real and is a result of white privilege. The idea that Tom should be guaranteed a job in this economy because he's a particular color is racist. If there's truly no difference between Tom and Jermaine as they were both born here then the job should go to the most qualified unless there is some other mitigating factor that should be considered; like if the company isn't hiring black people because the guy doing the actual hiring thinks black people are lazy. This, of course, comes from an attitude that some whites have, that after no longer being forced to do back breaking work all day and getting whipped if we did not reach quotas, that we feel entitled and are less productive. You, being of sound mind, probably find this view repugnant. Maybe you've never heard such a stereotype in your life. We have.

Obamacare was imperfect but the CBO said it was stable. The republicans ranted about how it was in a death spiral but instead of letting it die, Trump did what we knew he was going to do. He sabotaged it. The whole point of insurance is companies taking from as many healthy people as possible to cover their liability for the riskier pool. Relevance? Black people are often treated like Obamacare. It's not enough to say black people are this or that or, for some, believe themselves superior. They also use their position to sabotage and confirmation bias to justify individual decisions that, at scale, create massive problems. This is the part it seems like we get the most resistance on when it comes to believing our report. People, in general, would rather believe it's not happening and that we're all confused by mischievous leftwing indoctrination. Those who get abused the most don't have time to listen to republicans or democrats talk and they don't trust either one.

Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone. This idea of cosby slipping pills into women's drinks who were, at the time, trying to get something from a relationship with him, is based on their allegations which have never been proven. This is why I brought up Bill Cosby. Because of the ease at which everyone assumed his guilt. He had literally no presumption of innocence. There are multiple events being conflated that involved consensual use of party drugs with accusations of women finding themselves asleep in his company. Most of them are simply not credible but we tend to overlook that. In fact, most of the women's stories haven't really been critically investigated. Constand's story has a lot of issues, but mainly the amount of contact that she had after the alleged assault.

Am I going to convince you he's innocent? Of course not. Your mind was already made up. The point was how easy it was for people to make up their minds on the strength of so many women coming out against him. And that was the whole point. It doesn't matter how many witnesses black people produce to prove injustice or how many black men freed from prison by new evidence. The majority of America tend to side with the police just like they side with the troops. You think the troops have never done anything morally wrong in foreign countries? I've heard it from them myself. There are bad soldiers and there are bad cops. And if we don't want the reputation of the whole to be brought down by the few then we need to make sure the few are always brought to justice.
Last edit: 16 Oct 2017 18:02 by ZealotX.
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17 Oct 2017 18:45 - 17 Oct 2017 19:03 #304178 by OB1Shinobi
Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.


JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Sources



JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.


JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.


A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.


JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.


Ive addressed that i think


JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.


Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.


People are complicated.
Last edit: 17 Oct 2017 19:03 by OB1Shinobi.
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17 Oct 2017 19:33 - 17 Oct 2017 20:14 #304181 by Lykeios Little Raven
I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

"Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built." - Patrick O'Dell
Last edit: 17 Oct 2017 20:14 by Lykeios Little Raven.

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17 Oct 2017 20:58 #304186 by JLSpinner

OB1Shinobi wrote: Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.


JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]



6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Sources



JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.


JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.


A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.


JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.


Ive addressed that i think


JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.


Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

I don't particularly disagree with anything you said. I don't agree with every stance they hold. I do agree though that we need change.
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17 Oct 2017 21:00 #304187 by JLSpinner

Lykeios wrote: I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

I believe that he was being ironic by using viewpoints of others involved in the movement.
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18 Oct 2017 15:00 #304229 by Lykeios Little Raven

JLSpinner wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

I believe that he was being ironic by using viewpoints of others involved in the movement.

Oh, I was aware of that. I wasn't actually mad at OB1. I am pissed off at the attitude I've seen from people I try to respect and support in their various struggles (African-American, "white", Hispanic, Asian, whoever they are). I can't do **** to change the "system" and if people are going to assume crap about me because of something I said (first off that I'm "caucasian") then, like I said, count me out.

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

"Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built." - Patrick O'Dell
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18 Oct 2017 21:38 - 18 Oct 2017 21:53 #304252 by Adder

ZealotX wrote: First, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, when people say "white people have the power" or something to that effect what it means is that white people are in the majority in a representative democracy. Therefore, they have the greatest influence on society and on government. It doesn't mean that white people have group meetings and decide as a group to vote for white issues or vote against black issues. It seems means that "collectively", the majority, by voting for their own issues, and using their political capital/pressure for their own issues, it creates real power that positively affects them and often negatively affects the minority.


That is no excuse, for then its just sloppy speech and misleading, if its not intended to be racist. It might not experienced as racist by the offender because they are not the victim of the 'slop', but it can be taken as racist by those that are. Defeating racism is everyones responsibility. If a side to a racist argument discard the same thing they demand they become not only hypocrits, but as part of their own problem because they will be inflaming a response in kind. Don't give into it, be better then them, and certainly don''t do the same thing to spread it further as that is akin to working 'for' the racists on the other side!!

ZealotX wrote: There are many African Americans who believe ... snip... That's why they do it.


No doubt racism exists, and has existed, and is really harmful to individual and society, its permeation are terrible and ongoing in various vulnerable groups around the world, not limited to race nor blacks, but responsibility is not asserted by the word count possible in generating an argument - responsibility needs to be based on accuracy and relevance, and if people are talking about taking action in that regard then if it is not based on accuracy and relevance, then it is based on something else...... I think the argument here is elements of BLM, including in their leadership, and wading in inappropriate concepts towards inappropriate conduct, and what makes it inappropriate is not 'racism' merely because it disagrees with a platform claiming to be anti-racist.

ZealotX wrote: Accuracy? Too often the "desire to be accurate" allows cops to get away with murder. Accurate is a relatively subjective concept.


No its not. What makes it accurate is its objectivity. The problem you might be thinking of is when objectivity is lost in process, as in reality conditions cannot be controlled sufficiently to allow objective measures to always be applied where needed when needed. Indeed it is a function in the conduct of crime for surprise to be exerted upon a target in such a way as to protect the offender by avoiding exactly those measures. It does not mean the system is 'racist' if racism occurs within a system, it might just mean the system is being abused by racists. What is clear is that there are weaknesses in the system, but there are right ways and wrong ways to fix things, and usually doing it the wrong way is not only stopping progress but going backwards.

And it's a natural part of 'the system' to have controls to avoid misuse and abuse (else it wouldn't grow with an element of conservation). But human nature seems to seek out advantage in areas of a system which might offer it, where going outside the system rules seem attractive - and indeed the larger a system gets, the more of these will exist. Such that there are entire government agencies dedicated to rooting out abuse of the system in various parts of the system. That same phenomena will occur in smaller systems throughout society as grow occurs............. and half the time it fails and the wrong people end up in power until they make such a mess that they get found out. It happens all the time, but I'd say its a natural attribute of a growing complex system. Your either fixing it, or breaking it - and even ignoring it is the later.

ZealotX wrote: Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone.


How do you know that? Being able to create 'a' narrative to defend Bill Cosby is not the same thing as 'the' narrative of what actually happened. As I said earlier in another post, accuracy should be the goal, not comfort.

ZealotX wrote: So what is racism?



Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".


All in my opinion of course, and I'm not expert but I have had quite a bit of exposure to anti-discrimination policy around the term of the century.

Basically, nah, he is wrong :D

I'd say he is confusing the effects of racism perpetuating through a system as racism. The effects from groups of racist decisions is only a group effect when the group identifies with those actions - ie it does not become a racist system until the racists rule the system. Otherwise its a system with racists. But majority does not equate rule, it just means they have the most power to exert rule when asked. What rules the system is the rules, and their enforcement, which goes back to that objective process...

I'd suggest he is wrong about history as well, as abuse of power can be seated in various things including 'difference' and it seems silly to suggest that it wouldn't to me... since it would be natural to fear what is different, a threat, or vulnerable. When that fear is held with those in power, then that power can be abused to control that fear. Interestingly history has lots of examples of the most successful societies being the ones which were most inclusive of difference (within its society), eg the Roman Empire, and you'd think that would have informed past and present generations more but its really only recently that information has become so accessible that there is no excuse for ignorance in people claiming to be experts.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 18 Oct 2017 21:53 by Adder.

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