The Problem with Black Lives Matter

That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.



http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Warning: Spoiler!

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/01/stop-kidding-yourself-white-people-are-racist-6895283/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVI9Phz_ENo

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this. Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others. The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does. I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done. Racism and white supremacy happen to be part of that legacy, just like the violence in Chicago will forever be a stain on the black community. We can argue about the role government plays on the economy in the inner city and how money is taken from one place to benefit another and schools are failing and all of that. And there are legitimate arguments on both sides. But as long as there are black people doing bad things they're never going to be judged individually. Not going to happen. They're black. I may wish they weren't but they are and the black community has a responsibility to do something about it; whether the police represent our agenda or not.

The first article you posted was a good article... written by a white person in reaction to L’Oreal model Munroe Bergdorf said which was:

When I stated that “all white people are racist”, I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a SYSTEM rooted in white supremacy – designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race. Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist. We also live in a society where men are SOCIALISED to be sexist. Women are SOCIALISED to be submissive. Gay people are SOCIALISED to be ashamed of their sexuality due to heterosexual people’s homophobia. Cisgender people are SOCIALISED to be transphobic. We do not need to be this way. We are not born this way and we can learn to reject it. We are just socially conditioned to think this way from an early age. With the right education, empathy and open mindedness we can unlearn these socialisations and live a life where we don’t oppress others and see things from other people’s points of view.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

These 2 articles deal mainly with the idea that a particular test can predict behavior. I agree with the authors myself. I do believe in conditioned behavior, responses, etc. however, testing them through a conscious action seems silly to me. Your conscious mind isn't exactly a slave to your subconscious. It can overrule many automatic reflexes based on what you consciously think the right answer is. If you're testing me on how many people I'm going to shoot wearing a hijab just the fact that I'm taking a test would help me target those people less because I'm trying to pass a test. Often in schools testing fails because teachers train students for the tests themselves which doesn't mean they truly have a grasp on the subject matter. The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race. On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites. If it's new to you it is only because you were unaware it existed before. And if it shocks you then you should imagine our shock at the things we hear from whites who don't claim to be either white supremacists or racists. At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.

OB1Shinobi wrote: That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcIDO-BzWkw

http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

First, I apologize to you OB1Shinobi, but that reply was not in response to you at all. In fact, while I was writing it I didn't know your post even existed. Once I did see it I wrote a response to address what you said. These are obviously lengthy and therefore not quick responses. I apologize for that.

Secondly, if there is a view that this thread is one side vs another, I apologize to you if you got that impression from me. I actually think everyone has been wonderful in this thread. I think the idea that we should always judge success by how many people share our views isn't logical. Some of what I say is venting based on what I've heard, not just here, but from other sources. But I speak more here because my expectations of the people here are much higher. The people are here are generally more enlightened. Not perfect, just as I am not perfect; but more enlightened.

Thirdly, sometimes all we need to hear 'you' say is what you just said about police being out of control. The problem is that black people, not just me personally, are used to that "...but" and a lot of times it's what comes after ANY measure of agreement that is offensive to us. We go to sleep one day thinking we're protesting injustice and inequality and the next day we wake up to find our president telling us we're protesting the flag and the troops. Not only is this news to us but the problem is that it poisons the argument, ends conversations, and gives people justification to continue to ignore the problem by making the protest the new problem. This is the part I am the most sensitive to because it's like we cannot win to save our lives... literally... TO SAVE OUR LIVES.

Lastly, I agree 80% with your solution. I have personally been working within the economic empowerment side of things. But I can also tell you that a large part of the problem is envy and jealousy and fear. It was the same when workers unions first got started. The progress made by black people is only half the story. The other half is the resistance. The other half is white workers feeling displaced like the popular South Park chant "They took our jobs!" If you understand it, this sentiment is very real and is a result of white privilege. The idea that Tom should be guaranteed a job in this economy because he's a particular color is racist. If there's truly no difference between Tom and Jermaine as they were both born here then the job should go to the most qualified unless there is some other mitigating factor that should be considered; like if the company isn't hiring black people because the guy doing the actual hiring thinks black people are lazy. This, of course, comes from an attitude that some whites have, that after no longer being forced to do back breaking work all day and getting whipped if we did not reach quotas, that we feel entitled and are less productive. You, being of sound mind, probably find this view repugnant. Maybe you've never heard such a stereotype in your life. We have.

Obamacare was imperfect but the CBO said it was stable. The republicans ranted about how it was in a death spiral but instead of letting it die, Trump did what we knew he was going to do. He sabotaged it. The whole point of insurance is companies taking from as many healthy people as possible to cover their liability for the riskier pool. Relevance? Black people are often treated like Obamacare. It's not enough to say black people are this or that or, for some, believe themselves superior. They also use their position to sabotage and confirmation bias to justify individual decisions that, at scale, create massive problems. This is the part it seems like we get the most resistance on when it comes to believing our report. People, in general, would rather believe it's not happening and that we're all confused by mischievous leftwing indoctrination. Those who get abused the most don't have time to listen to republicans or democrats talk and they don't trust either one.

Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone. This idea of cosby slipping pills into women's drinks who were, at the time, trying to get something from a relationship with him, is based on their allegations which have never been proven. This is why I brought up Bill Cosby. Because of the ease at which everyone assumed his guilt. He had literally no presumption of innocence. There are multiple events being conflated that involved consensual use of party drugs with accusations of women finding themselves asleep in his company. Most of them are simply not credible but we tend to overlook that. In fact, most of the women's stories haven't really been critically investigated. Constand's story has a lot of issues, but mainly the amount of contact that she had after the alleged assault.

Am I going to convince you he's innocent? Of course not. Your mind was already made up. The point was how easy it was for people to make up their minds on the strength of so many women coming out against him. And that was the whole point. It doesn't matter how many witnesses black people produce to prove injustice or how many black men freed from prison by new evidence. The majority of America tend to side with the police just like they side with the troops. You think the troops have never done anything morally wrong in foreign countries? I've heard it from them myself. There are bad soldiers and there are bad cops. And if we don't want the reputation of the whole to be brought down by the few then we need to make sure the few are always brought to justice.

Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.

JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:




The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)


2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.



3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)



4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.



5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)



6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)


Sources

JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.

JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.

JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

Ive addressed that i think

JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

OB1Shinobi wrote: Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.

JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:

Warning: Spoiler!

White people, here are 10 requests from a Black Lives Matter leader

Some things I’m thinking about that should change (in that Southern, black grandmama voice):

1. White people, if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty.

2. White people, if you’re inheriting property you intend to sell upon acceptance, give it to a black or brown family. You’re bound to make that money in some other white privileged way.

3. If you are a developer or realty owner of multi-family housing, build a sustainable complex in a black or brown blighted neighborhood and let black and brown people live in it for free.

4. White people, if you can afford to downsize, give up the home you own to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

5. White people, if any of the people you intend to leave your property to are racists assholes, change the will, and will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

6. White people, re-budget your monthly so you can donate to black funds for land purchasing.

7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the fuck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.

8. Backing up No. 7, this should be easy but all those sheetless Klan, Nazi’s and Other lil’ dick-white men will all be returning to work. Get they ass fired. Call the police even: they look suspicious.

9. OK, backing up No. 8, if any white person at your work, or as you enter in spaces and you overhear a white person praising the actions from yesterday, first, get a pic. Get their name and more info. Hell, find out where they work — Get Them Fired. But certainly address them, and, if you need to, you got hands: use them.

10. Commit to two things: Fighting white supremacy where and how you can (this doesn’t mean taking up knitting, unless you’re making scarves for black and brown kids in need), and funding black and brown people and their work.

The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand reparations for past and continuing harms. The government, responsible corporations and other institutions that have profited off of the harm they have inflicted on Black people — from colonialism to slavery through food and housing redlining, mass incarceration, and surveillance — must repair the harm done. This includes:

Reparations for the systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education including: free access and open admissions to public community colleges and universities, technical education (technology, trade and agricultural), educational support programs, retroactive forgiveness of student loans, and support for lifetime learning programs.
Reparations for the continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people, with clearly articulated corporate regulations.
Reparations for the wealth extracted from our communities through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations focused on healing ongoing physical and mental trauma, and ensuring our access and control of food sources, housing and land.
Reparations for the cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction of our communities in the form of mandated public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery, and funding to support, build, preserve, and restore cultural assets and sacred sites to ensure the recognition and honoring of our collective struggles and triumphs.
Legislation at the federal and state level that requires the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts. This includes the immediate passage of H.R.40, the “Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African-Americans Act” or subsequent versions which call for reparations remedies.

2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.

Warning: Spoiler!

An immediate end to the criminalization and dehumanization of Black youth across all areas of society including, but not limited to; our nation’s justice and education systems, social service agencies, and media and pop culture. This includes an end to zero-tolerance school policies and arrests of students, the removal of police from schools, and the reallocation of funds from police and punitive school discipline practices to restorative services.
An end to capital punishment.
An end to money bail, mandatory fines, fees, court surcharges and “defendant funded” court proceedings.
An end to the use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services and needs.
An end to the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills, an end to all deportations, immigrant detention, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, and mandated legal representation in immigration court.
An end to the war on Black trans, queer and gender nonconforming people including their addition to anti-discrimination civil rights protections to ensure they have full access to employment, health, housing and education.
An end to the mass surveillance of Black communities, and the end to the use of technologies that criminalize and target our communities (including IMSI catchers, drones, body cameras, and predictive policing software).
The demilitarization of law enforcement, including law enforcement in schools and on college campuses.
An immediate end to the privatization of police, prisons, jails, probation, parole, food, phone and all other criminal justice related services.
Until we achieve a world where cages are no longer used against our people we demand an immediate change in conditions and an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them. This includes the end of solitary confinement, the end of shackling of pregnant people, access to quality healthcare, and effective measures to address the needs of our youth, queer, gender nonconforming and trans families.

3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)

Warning: Spoiler!

A reallocation of funds at the federal, state and local level from policing and incarceration (JAG, COPS, VOCA) to long-term safety strategies such as education, local restorative justice services, and employment programs.
The retroactive decriminalization, immediate release and record expungement of all drug related offenses and prostitution, and reparations for the devastating impact of the “war on drugs” and criminalization of prostitution, including a reinvestment of the resulting savings and revenue into restorative services, mental health services, job programs and other programs supporting those impacted by the sex and drug trade.
Real, meaningful, and equitable universal health care that guarantees: proximity to nearby comprehensive health centers, culturally competent services for all people, specific services for queer, gender nonconforming, and trans people, full bodily autonomy, full reproductive services, mental health services, paid parental leave, and comprehensive quality child and elder care.
A constitutional right at the state and federal level to a fully-funded education which includes a clear articulation of the right to: a free education for all, special protections for queer and trans students, wrap around services, social workers, free health services (including reproductive body autonomy), a curriculum that acknowledges and addresses students’ material and cultural needs, physical activity and recreation, high quality food, free daycare, and freedom from unwarranted search, seizure or arrest.
A divestment from industrial multinational use of fossil fuels and investment in community- based sustainable energy solutions.
A cut in military expenditures and a reallocation of those funds to invest in domestic infrastructure and community well-being.

4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Warning: Spoiler!

A progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels to ensure a radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth.
Federal and state job programs that specifically target the most economically marginalized Black people, and compensation for those involved in the care economy. Job programs must provide a living wage and encourage support for local workers centers, unions, and Black-owned businesses which are accountable to the community.
A right to restored land, clean air, clean water and housing and an end to the exploitative privatization of natural resources — including land and water. We seek democratic control over how resources are preserved, used and distributed and do so while honoring and respecting the rights of our Indigenous family.
The right for workers to organize in public and private sectors especially in “On Demand Economy” jobs.
Restore the Glass-Steagall Act to break up the large banks, and call for the National Credit Union Administration and the US Department of the Treasury to change policies and practices around regulation, reporting and consolidation to allow for the continuation and creation of black banks, small and community development credit unions, insurance companies and other financial institutions.
An end to the Trans-Pacific Partnership and a renegotiation of all trade agreements to prioritize the interests of workers and communities.
Through tax incentives, loans and other government directed resources, support the development of cooperative or social economy networks to help facilitate trade across and in Black communities globally. All aid in the form of grants, loans or contracts to help facilitate this must go to Black led or Black supported networks and organizations as defined by the communities.
Financial support of Black alternative institutions including policy that subsidizes and offers low-interest, interest-free or federally guaranteed low-interest loans to promote the development of cooperatives (food, residential, etc.), land trusts and culturally responsive health infrastructures that serve the collective needs of our communities.
Protections for workers in industries that are not appropriately regulated including domestic workers, farm workers, and tipped workers, and for workers — many of whom are Black women and incarcerated people— who have been exploited and remain unprotected. This includes the immediate passage at the Federal and state level of the Domestic Workers Bill of Rights and extension of worker protections to incarcerated people.

5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand a world where those most impacted in our communities control the laws, institutions, and policies that are meant to serve us – from our schools to our local budgets, economies, police departments, and our land – while recognizing that the rights and histories of our Indigenous family must also be respected. This includes:

Direct democratic community control of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, ensuring that communities most harmed by destructive policing have the power to hire and fire officers, determine disciplinary action, control budgets and policies, and subpoena relevant agency information.
An end to the privatization of education and real community control by parents, students and community members of schools including democratic school boards and community control of curriculum, hiring, firing and discipline policies.
Participatory budgeting at the local, state and federal level.

6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)

Warning: Spoiler!

We demand independent Black political power and Black self-determination in all areas of society. We envision a remaking of the current U.S. political system in order to create a real democracy where Black people and all marginalized people can effectively exercise full political power. This includes:

An end to the criminalization of Black political activity including the immediate release of all political prisoners and an end to the repression of political parties.
Public financing of elections and the end of money controlling politics through ending super PACs and unchecked corporate donations.
Election protection, electoral expansion and the right to vote for all people including: full access, guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people through universal voter registration, automatic voter registration, pre-registration for 16-year-olds, same day voter registration, voting day holidays, Online Voter Registration (OVR), enfranchisement of formerly and presently incarcerated people, local and state resident voting for undocumented people, and a ban on any disenfranchisement laws.
Full access to technology including net neutrality and universal access to the internet without discrimination and full representation for all.
Protection and increased funding for Black institutions including Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU’s), Black media and cultural, political and social formations.
An End to the Criminalization of Black Political Activity Including the Immediate Release of All Political Prisoners and an End to the Repression of Political Parties
What is the problem?

While the criminal justice system has managed to create a pipeline from schools to prisons for Black and Brown communities, it has also been used as a tool of the state to delegitimize and neutralize people’s movements throughout history.
The criminalization of freedom movements and activists has resulted in the incarceration of hundreds of people, many of whom are recognized as legitimate freedom fighters. Black communities have been disproportionately targeted by the state and have become political prisoners incarcerated in local, state and federal prisons. The FBI’s Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO) outlined the purpose, objectives, methods and tools used to criminalize freedom movements.
Today, direct victims of COINTELPRO (and similar law enforcement initiatives) remain exiled and incarcerated, while indirectly Black communities remain under surveillance by all levels of law enforcement with the intention of preventing the growth of another nationwide movement.
The tradition of surveillance and harassment of activists and freedom movements, has fostered fear, mistrust and suspicion in movement spaces that would otherwise function effectively.
What does this solution do?

We are calling for the release of all political prisoners held in the U.S. and the removal of legitimate freedom fighters from the International Terrorists list. Additionally, we call on Congress to hold hearings on the impact of COINTELPRO as the Church Committee hearings in 1975 did not offer remedies to individuals and communities negatively impacted by this government initiative.

Sources

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-lives-matter-releases-policy-agenda-n620966

http://www.dailywire.com/news/8002/how-radical-left-black-lives-matter-heres-full-james-barrett#

http://time.com/4433679/black-lives-matter-platform-demands/

https://policy.m4bl.org/platform/

JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.

JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.

JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

Ive addressed that i think

JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

I don't particularly disagree with anything you said. I don't agree with every stance they hold. I do agree though that we need change.

Lykeios wrote: I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Warning: Spoiler!

**** that bull****.

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

I believe that he was being ironic by using viewpoints of others involved in the movement.

JLSpinner wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Warning: Spoiler!

**** that bull****.

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)

I believe that he was being ironic by using viewpoints of others involved in the movement.

Oh, I was aware of that. I wasn't actually mad at OB1. I am pissed off at the attitude I've seen from people I try to respect and support in their various struggles (African-American, "white", Hispanic, Asian, whoever they are). I can't do **** to change the "system" and if people are going to assume crap about me because of something I said (first off that I'm "caucasian") then, like I said, count me out.

ZealotX wrote: First, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, when people say "white people have the power" or something to that effect what it means is that white people are in the majority in a representative democracy. Therefore, they have the greatest influence on society and on government. It doesn't mean that white people have group meetings and decide as a group to vote for white issues or vote against black issues. It seems means that "collectively", the majority, by voting for their own issues, and using their political capital/pressure for their own issues, it creates real power that positively affects them and often negatively affects the minority.

That is no excuse, for then its just sloppy speech and misleading, if its not intended to be racist. It might not experienced as racist by the offender because they are not the victim of the 'slop', but it can be taken as racist by those that are. Defeating racism is everyones responsibility. If a side to a racist argument discard the same thing they demand they become not only hypocrits, but as part of their own problem because they will be inflaming a response in kind. Don't give into it, be better then them, and certainly don''t do the same thing to spread it further as that is akin to working 'for' the racists on the other side!!

ZealotX wrote: There are many African Americans who believe ... snip... That's why they do it.

No doubt racism exists, and has existed, and is really harmful to individual and society, its permeation are terrible and ongoing in various vulnerable groups around the world, not limited to race nor blacks, but responsibility is not asserted by the word count possible in generating an argument - responsibility needs to be based on accuracy and relevance, and if people are talking about taking action in that regard then if it is not based on accuracy and relevance, then it is based on something else...... I think the argument here is elements of BLM, including in their leadership, and wading in inappropriate concepts towards inappropriate conduct, and what makes it inappropriate is not 'racism' merely because it disagrees with a platform claiming to be anti-racist.

ZealotX wrote: Accuracy? Too often the "desire to be accurate" allows cops to get away with murder. Accurate is a relatively subjective concept.

No its not. What makes it accurate is its objectivity. The problem you might be thinking of is when objectivity is lost in process, as in reality conditions cannot be controlled sufficiently to allow objective measures to always be applied where needed when needed. Indeed it is a function in the conduct of crime for surprise to be exerted upon a target in such a way as to protect the offender by avoiding exactly those measures. It does not mean the system is 'racist' if racism occurs within a system, it might just mean the system is being abused by racists. What is clear is that there are weaknesses in the system, but there are right ways and wrong ways to fix things, and usually doing it the wrong way is not only stopping progress but going backwards.

And it's a natural part of 'the system' to have controls to avoid misuse and abuse (else it wouldn't grow with an element of conservation). But human nature seems to seek out advantage in areas of a system which might offer it, where going outside the system rules seem attractive - and indeed the larger a system gets, the more of these will exist. Such that there are entire government agencies dedicated to rooting out abuse of the system in various parts of the system. That same phenomena will occur in smaller systems throughout society as grow occurs............. and half the time it fails and the wrong people end up in power until they make such a mess that they get found out. It happens all the time, but I'd say its a natural attribute of a growing complex system. Your either fixing it, or breaking it - and even ignoring it is the later.

ZealotX wrote: Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone.

How do you know that? Being able to create 'a' narrative to defend Bill Cosby is not the same thing as 'the' narrative of what actually happened. As I said earlier in another post, accuracy should be the goal, not comfort.

ZealotX wrote: So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

All in my opinion of course, and I'm not expert but I have had quite a bit of exposure to anti-discrimination policy around the term of the century.

Basically, nah, he is wrong

I'd say he is confusing the effects of racism perpetuating through a system as racism. The effects from groups of racist decisions is only a group effect when the group identifies with those actions - ie it does not become a racist system until the racists rule the system. Otherwise its a system with racists. But majority does not equate rule, it just means they have the most power to exert rule when asked. What rules the system is the rules, and their enforcement, which goes back to that objective process...

I'd suggest he is wrong about history as well, as abuse of power can be seated in various things including 'difference' and it seems silly to suggest that it wouldn't to me... since it would be natural to fear what is different, a threat, or vulnerable. When that fear is held with those in power, then that power can be abused to control that fear. Interestingly history has lots of examples of the most successful societies being the ones which were most inclusive of difference (within its society), eg the Roman Empire, and you'd think that would have informed past and present generations more but its really only recently that information has become so accessible that there is no excuse for ignorance in people claiming to be experts.

Are you posting these demands to make BLM sound extremist?

I can understand why someone might have a kneejerk reaction to some of these points but you need to read to see the logic behind the demand and understand why it isn't crazy.

At the same time, demands are typically negotiated. Which means if you're making demands it's better to shoot for the moon so you can compromise somewhere in the middle.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)

With all due respect, I don't think the actual demand is presented as you describe. There is no debt forgiveness, for example, that I saw. It's talking about how higher education produces debt. We live in a society where the cost of higher education is much higher than it needs to be. It's artificially inflated and many schools are much more expensive seemingly as a means of keeping out the lower class. Imo, this is not necessarily racist but rather discrimination based on class.

Also, UBI (universal basic income), is not a new concept but it is untested. Finland is not a good example as explained in this article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/opinion/finland-universal-basic-income.html

The idea, if done right, would effectively end poverty. At the same time, great minds like Elon Musk (a personal hero of mine), said that automation would force universal income. I fully appreciate that the idea seems ridiculous now. We're used to very slow change even though Trump was voted in to create radical change that would benefit his base (low income whites). But such a radical solution for low income blacks would be crazy. Trust me, black people already know reparations will never happen. That's why I think the goal is to try to push more for education, similar to what Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein proposed.

Universal basic income (UBI) is becoming respectable. Less than a decade ago, its principal supporters were weed-smoking hippies and Star Trek aficionados: “serious people” either laughed or sneered at it. But now, it counts among its supporters a growing number of top economists, entrepreneurs and financiers. Governments around the world are evaluating its use, and some are embarking on pilot studies. Businesses are partnering with not-for-profit organizations to conduct serious research into the costs and benefits of UBI.

And now, the IMF has joined the party. In its latest Fiscal Monitor, it says UBI could reduce income inequality and protect people affected by technological change and globalization.

Additionally, as I may get into later, these things could be paid for by taking money out of the judicial system. Crime and poverty are closely related.

2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.

The Vera Institute of Justice released a study in 2012 that found the aggregate cost of prisons in 2010 in the 40 states that participated was $39 billion. The annual average taxpayer cost in these states was $31,286 per inmate. New York State was the most expensive, with an average cost of $60,000 per prison inmate.

One of my favorite reggae artists said this in a song. Please listen to the words. We can have a conversation about excuses afterwards if you want, but right now, I just want you to hear him speaking for the poor and the powerless so you can understand where a lot of the crime comes from and understand that if you solve these problems you wouldn't need so many jails and prisons. In NY it costs $60,000 per prison inmate. I'm not saying we don't need these things at all. What I'm suggesting is that we're investing in the wrong way. But the reason we invest in incarceration is because it makes money for private investors.

Bounty Killa...

Look into my eyes, tell me what you see?
Can you feel my pain? am I your enemy?
Give us a better way, things are really bad,
The only friend I know is this gun I have.
Listen to my voice, this is not a threat
Now you see the nine are you worried yet?
You've been talking 'bout' you want the war to cease
But when you show us hope, we will show you peace.

Verse 1

Look into my mind, can you see the wealth?
Can you tell that I want to help myself?
But if it happen that I stick you for your ring
Don't be mad at me it's a survival ting.
Look into my heart, I can feel your fear
Take another look can you hold my stare?
Why are you afraid of my hungry face?
Or is it this thing bulging in my waist?

Chorus

Verse 2

Look into my life, can you see my kids?
Let me ask you this,do you know what hungry is?
Well in this part of town, survival is my will
For you to stay alive you've got to rob and kill.
Look into my house would you live in there?
Look me in the eyes and tell me that you care,
Well I've made up my mind to end up in the morgue
Right now I'd rather die, cause man a live like dog.

Look down on my shoes, can you see my toes?
The struggle that we live nobody really knows
Stop and ask yourself, would you live like that?
and if you had to then, wouldn't you bus gun shot?
Look into the schools, tell me how you feel?
You want the kids to learn without a proper meal
Den what you have in place to keep them out of wrong?
If they drop out of school dem a go bus dem gun.


Look, I can never advocate criminal activity. However, what I can stress to you is that we are products largely of our environment. One of our esteemed members talked about getting off the bus at the wrong stop, in the wrong part of town, and being prepared to kill in order to defend himself. That sounds crazy to me but I can empathize with his situation. He pulled out a gun to scare people away who we do not know what they would have done to him. I chastised him a bit over his willingness to kill. Maybe I shouldn't have. However, when I think about the people who grow up there, who see violence everyday, who see a system where the powerful seem to be protected, where safety means being part of a gang, and when your opportunities are limited by your education... it should remove all surprise that many of these youth are also willing to kill. No one seems to cares about them. And eventually, they stop caring about themselves.

And all I'm saying is that we need real solutions to the ROOT CAUSE, which is poverty caused by a lack of access to capital and a lack of access to education (ACCESS & OPPORTUNITY) instead of pumping more and more money into dealing with the SYMPTOMS of drugs and gang violence. Why these solutions sound so crazy is because people think about the financial cost of helping people and for many people, it's too much and those people don't deserve it. How much are these lives worth?

How much do these lives matter?

As a black man, I have little to say on them as a group or movement since I don't necessarily participate. However, what I will say is this.

To any "____ Lives Matter" I would say "Life Matters" and in all its manifestations it should be treated with wisdom, love, and respect.

See me for the soul I am and the spirit I have. I am more than this crude matter we call flesh.

3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)

I know I just addressed this but it's really kind of the same thing. Most people have no idea how expensive it is to be poor. Not everyone has insurance. Not everyone has a degree. Not everyone has a name that sounds white. Many people start at a disadvantage that's hard, even for someone talented, to escape from. If you're exceptional, there's always a way out. If you're not... well... society just doesn't care as much. Let's be honest.

I would argue that ancient Egypt's military grew too large. What happens when your military force grows too large to sustain? Think about it. I get calls to donate to police. I happen to like my local police department. I even shared a video online of them arresting someone I know who was almost asking to be shot. They handled the situation which real heart. They could have done what other cops do... tackled him to the ground, sic their dog on him, beat him into submission, etc. Instead, the talked to him, one cop actually embraced him, and they treated him with dignity and respect even though he deserved very little. These are the same cops that will play basketball with kids at a community event. These are the kind of cops everyone needs.

But when there are too many cops and they're reacting to crime like an army... they're using military tactics. When they're needed they're needed. When the situation calls for it, then you should use the amount of force called for by the situation. But when they're not needed... then they're harassing citizens, prejudging people by racially profiling, and their jobs devolve into bringing in money by fulfilling quotas. At some point, a lot of capitalistic systems devolve into being more about money than people. And that's a huge problem.

When a person is locked up... maybe they are guilty... maybe they are innocent. But before we can even establish if a person did the crime or not, their life is interrupted by the arrest and if they can't afford to pay the bail for what the police are accusing them of, then they have to sit in jail possibly for weeks. I was in jail for nearly a week even though I had bail because this particular judge like to give out home detention like candy; meaning, until the court date I wasn't able to work, and with only 2 home detention officers for the entire jail, I had to wait until they could get to me and they only worked during business hours which means if you get arrested thursday or friday you may not get out until the next week. Why did I get arrested? I think it was driving with an expired license. I should have been able to pay a fee online and that'd be it. But no... my job was even calling hospitals trying to find me because to them, my disappearance.... and I kinda felt like I had just been kidnapped. I'm very loyal to my company because of how they handled this situation. They let me work from home while I was on home detention. And the owner of the company even offered me money if it would help. But I'm fortunate. I have a good job where I make good money. The guys I met in jail? Most people are in jail for FTA (failure to appear in court). Many of them would be back again and again because they didn't have the resources to get out or stay out. Many people would have lost their job, if they had one. And that interruption affects the family's survival. And believe me... a lot of judges and magistrates are like tax collectors. They spend hours and hours calling people up, telling them a fine, asking when they can pay, and then telling them to go pay court fees. It's a money sink and it affects African Americans disproportionately. In a 3 year span I probably spend $2500 in fines, mostly from overzealous officers. It could totally be a coincidence but after all the attention from BLM I felt like the police were paying less attention to me which is a great thing.

The reason why so many people have bad experiences with the police isn't because they're criminals getting what they deserve. For most, they are a CASH CROP, and the police have to harvest money out of the population in order to sustain themselves, judges, lawyers, etc. But we're justifying all the investment into the judicial system based on the idea that we have to lock so many people up. What if we were like other major civilized countries? What if we locked up fewer people? Then we could take all that money and use it on making sure there progressively less people to lock up. There is no greater investment to solve this problem than education. And housing. My fiance is a property manager. I would say, instead of putting so many low income people together in the same housing complexes, they need to be distributed to all apartments complexes so that they aren't socialized down a certain path; segregated into poor micro-communities. It's not about handouts. It's about common sense reform.

4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.

Woah.... I thought black people in the US were American?

secondly, this does sound pretty bad out of context.

Across the country, low-income people, disproportionately Black and other people of color, pay proportionally more in state and local taxes than the wealthy: In the ten states with the most regressive tax structures, the poorest fifth pay up to seven times as much in state and local taxes and fees as the wealthiest residents, as a percentage of their income.

So the context is that they believe African Americans are impacted more severely by taxation. Anytime you change the tax codes it means that more money will come from another group in order to alleviate the group you're trying to protect. The conservative approach is to protect wealthy Americans and Corporations. They idea is that they will, if only they had more money, create jobs. However, they also have a duty to return more money to their investors. And if they can make more money while using less people (which are a natural liability for a company) they certainly will. However, if you give the poorest Americans more money (more of their own money) they will consume more goods and services than rich people. These goods and services come from both the middle class and the rich so in that case everyone wins. On the other hand, currently, many wealthy people are able to hide their money and otherwise evade fair taxes. This is what I would call economic justice.

They also talk about breaking up big banks and other things that are not necessarily pro-black but rather, like most of their proposals, are policies that are supportive of the lower class.

Many people were against TPP and Trump killed it because doing so was popular with his base (again: lower class whites). Many people simply feel that these trade agreements benefit corporations but not necessarily the American workers. I only know bits and pieces about TPP so I wouldn't feel comfortable debating it. But they don't want to end all agreements but rather renegotiate (basically what Trump ran on) to prioritize American workers.

In contrast to the free money you're suggesting, what they're actually asking for is:

Financial support of Black alternative institutions including policy that subsidizes and offers low-interest, interest-free or federally guaranteed low-interest loans to promote the development of cooperatives (food, residential, etc.), land trusts and culturally responsive health infrastructures that serve the collective needs of our communities.

loans. Not grants.... but loans.

Over 26 federal agencies administer more than 1,000 grant programs annually to provide funding for the arts, educational institutions, agricultural projects and more.

We bailed out the auto industry under Obama and companies paid back those loans with interest. This demand is not for free grant money, but loans. Much of the financial difficulty of black communities was caused by the state. The state subsidizes a lot of exports to make them cheaper. It's not unheard of for the government to give money away if it is seen as an investment. Again... this demand is not for grants, but for loans.

5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)

during the height of the protests this was something I was advocating along with cameras.

https://policy.m4bl.org/community-control/

Context matters. I find it very offensive to equate the community with "the people being arrested" as if the entire community is one big crime family and we want to fire all the police so that there are no police at all.

What community control is actually about, if you read... is that communities should have some oversight and input into the behavior and policies of their local police forces. The problem with many police departments is that they have no consequences for their behavior. No one gets fired even though it should be obvious that not everyone with a badge is cut out for the job. If a police officer is so fearful that they're willing to shoot far more often than other people.... they're simply in the wrong profession. We're not spoiled kids who want to choose our own parents. We're grown ups who are thoughtful and who deserve to have a say in how we are protected and served. It's not like oversight doesn't already exist. There are over 200 agencies. But local police forces should report to their communities and be responsible to those communities disapproval. We are not the enemy. We should be partners. Police often ask us what happened or they ask us to testify. But because they have not been a partner to us and because they act like they're not part of our community, then we don't trust them to protect us. It's like 2 different agendas colliding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzjrIk05YyU

6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)

outlandish...

Where are you getting this from?

If you read the actual site it says:

1. An end to the criminalization of Black political activity including the immediate release of all political prisoners and an end to the repression of political parties.

2. Public financing of elections and the end of money controlling politics through ending super PACs and unchecked corporate donations.

3. Election protection, electoral expansion and the right to vote for all people including: full access, guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people through universal voter registration, automatic voter registration, pre-registration for 16-year-olds, same day voter registration, voting day holidays, Online Voter Registration (OVR), enfranchisement of formerly and presently incarcerated people, local and state resident voting for undocumented people, and a ban on any disenfranchisement laws.

4. Full access to technology including net neutrality and universal access to the internet without discrimination and full representation for all.

5. Protection and increased funding for Black institutions including Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCU’s), Black media and cultural, political and social formations.

how do these things equate to black separatism??

I feel like you're twisting these points to make them sound crazy which is what people tend to do when attacking BLM. They tend to find something, misunderstand it, mischaracterize it, and then it is sold to others in a "fake news" fashion so that people who don't hear it directly, think that BLM is bad and that black people are un American which only makes racists feel justified.

Thank you Zealot, for breaking these down for us. I really appreciate the time and effort on your part.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

Lykeios, some people are always going to think you're racist. I'm simply not one of them. The feelings attached to slavery, attached to segregation, attached to jim crow, KKK, and all these other things that have consistently been unfair to black people, those feelings are strong. When we talk about slavery, it's not just a few people being forced to work. We're talking about families separated, women raped, castrations, humans bred like animals and sold naked on auction blocks, destroying their hands picking their quota of cotton so they would have their skin ripped off by a whip. We're talking about brutal conditions with forced ignorance. If you were caught learning to read you could be killed. We're talking about the worst conditions that African Americans can think of. And even after it was "over" we were mocked and ridiculed, called "boy" and "nigger", couldn't drink from the same fountains or use the same bathrooms, even spit on.

If someone you don't know... thinks you are a racist... and that makes you feel some kind of way... to the point where you are willing to do nothing to stand up for the rights of marginalized people again... then I don't know what to tell you. "Racist" is such a horrible word if you hate it. But if you're not a racist then you should endure it because the people you are standing up for have endured FAR FAR WORSE. And the only reason why there are black people who feel that way is because when they were hurting it seemed like just about every white person... didn't care. White people told us about Jesus and how he was beaten and abused for the sins of mankind and how we should all love him for that. Jesus said whatsoever you have done to the least of these, my brethren, you have done it also to me. But when the least of these are brown (as Jesus was) it seems like the vast majority of whites (therefore whites as a "collective") look the other way. And its because there aren't enough whites doing what is in their power to do, in this democracy, that it feels, to them, that whites are, generally, working together.

I am pissed off at the attitude I've seen from people I try to respect and support in their various struggles (African-American, "white", Hispanic, Asian, whoever they are). I can't do **** to change the "system" and if people are going to assume crap about me because of something I said (first off that I'm "caucasian") then, like I said, count me out.

You're wrong. Whites are the ONLY ONES who can change the system. All black people can do is protest, to call your attention to what needs to be changed. We live in a democracy. Whites are the majority. Therefore the system benefits them. It's that simple. And if whites (again in general) wanted it to change, they would change it. That's how people see democracy. Is it more complicated than that? Yes. Does money play a huge role? Absolutely.

But when black people get attacked for protesting...

When there is no protest we can do that is acceptable...

When so many years have gone by without significant change on the issue...

When the confederate flag is waved in our faces and we still get called "nigger"...

When Dylan Roof shoots up a church full of black people because he wanted to start a race war and the cops bought him food from Burger King.

When a black man can still get dragged to death behind a truck...

It just doesn't seem like America is ready to let go of racism or even recognize its hatred towards black people motivated by the color of our skin. The whole point of these conversations is trigger an empathetic response that is larger than your own ego so you can actually DO SOMETHING. American soldiers fight to the death for America and what it represents to them. Black soldiers fight side by side with white soldiers. One of the things the black soldiers fight for is liberty and justice, not for the majority, but for all. That's something worth fighting for whether you get called a racist or whether I get called a "nigger". At some point we have see this as an American problem.

Part of the problem is institutional. You can't change that by yourself but if you are one of many, you CAN. (Yes... you can)
Part of the problem is social. You can't change that by yourself either but if you are one of many, you CAN.

When a white person expresses racist attitudes, and the worst I've ever seen was in videogames because of anonymity, their views are either accepted, ordained, rejected, coddled, or ignored. If you hear another white person saying something racially insensitive, you don't have to start a fight. Just say... "hey, man, that's not cool." You may never get that opportunity. But if you do, just say that. Why? Because racism is like a virus. It's spreads socially. Your reaction to racist views is what allows racist views to spread. People who spread hate aren't afraid of the consequences because for most... there are none. It is only when the next generation cannot spread hate that hate will die with them and the people will get jobs based on merit, education and healthcare based on human rights, etc.

@Adder

Your posts are, in general, excellent, and this is no exception.

That is no excuse, for then its just sloppy speech and misleading, if its not intended to be racist. It might not experienced as racist by the offender because they are not the victim of the 'slop', but it can be taken as racist by those that are. Defeating racism is everyones responsibility. If a side to a racist argument discard the same thing they demand they become not only hypocrits, but as part of their own problem because they will be inflaming a response in kind. Don't give into it, be better then them, and certainly don''t do the same thing to spread it further as that is akin to working 'for' the racists on the other side!!

I feel where you're coming from. All I can tell you is that many of my people are using emotions instead of logic. They're not in the same position to analyze the situation and all contributing variables the way any of us would like them to. And there will be mistakes. For example... Malcolm X. I wish he'd never accepted membership in the Nation of Islam but that's how he became who he was. It wasn't white people who reached out to him and gave him a sense of empowerment. It was the NOI. So his views were more radical because of his experience. But his experience was personal. I think the NOI is similar to the KKK in certain ways because their views are socialized but there is a positive side to having those connections, as with any social club.

It is important to understand that black people have been reactionary since we arrived because we have been systematically subject to whims and impulses of whites. After everything that black people suffered through it isn't reasonable to expect every black person to be patient for a hundred years while white people evolve beyond their racist past. So what you're left with is different degrees of hope, different degrees of bitterness, etc. I couldn't agree more with you that this is everyone's responsibility but if you're bullying someone in school the person with the greatest responsibility to stop the bullying is... the bully. If the person being bullied grows to hate you in the meantime what can you really truly expect? Not you, but it seems like some other whites have this strange expectation that black people should patiently wait until the day that white people are ready to stop being racists and stop treating them like garbage. My fiance recently suffered because of racism in her job. And even though customers experienced the racism too the racist was promoted when they should have been fired. Why? Kind of reminds me of Weinstein's company covering up his misconduct. You'd be surprised how much racism exists without any checks and balances.

This is where black nationalism grows out of. It grows out of a status quo position of inferior political and economic power that constructs a need to help ourselves in all the ways that the larger society keeps us down. For example... its well known to us but not necessarily to whites, that it can be incredibly difficult for us to get loans. Institutions tend to find justifications for saying no. In fact, it's easier for Indians coming from overseas to get loans so they can start businesses. And when other minority groups come here they tend to practice group economics. Black people don't. We hesitate to work together because of integration and yet integration doesn't go far enough to protect our survival. We're in an uncomfortable situation, being dependent on social acceptance for jobs, but also being denied so often that it really underscores the need to create our own jobs. But a lot of these people don't hate whites at all; disappointed maybe. Instead, they simply see the lack of help as a sign that we need to do more if not everything or ourselves. And many of them are so tired of waiting for help that never seems to come that they're basically just unwilling to simply keep waiting as if we're waiting for the second coming. There are no excuses for bad behavior but if we don't understand the source/cause then we'll simply react to each other ad infinitum.

Again with accuracy, you're right but I think you're giving too much credit to the critics. I think if a rape victim is having a moment of clarity they might reflect on mistakes they made or things they could have done better but at the end of the day THEY WERE RAPED! And when people interview them and question them, seemingly more curious about their mistakes or more vocal about criticizing what they were wearing or how late it was or how intoxicated they were, even if some of what they say is true and even if some points are accurate, it does not excuse the rapist. But in this society things like this help rapists go free because what do you do when someone is saying you did something wrong? You either accept it and pay the penalty, or you plead not guilty and attack their credibility. In a courtroom the prosecution is interested in what the offender did wrong, not what the victim did wrong. The defense questions the victim trying to prove their client is either innocent or appeal to their peers to try to get that person off. And you know how defense attorneys manipulate juries. What we have is the court of public opinion. Can you deny that questioning BLM can be perceived as being defensive? Shouldn't our focus be on bad cops? When the focus is shifted to BLM which "side" does that tend to favor? During the Occupy Wall Street movement they were protesting the 1% and they were, imo, right. But what happened? The media started attacking them (all) based on the actions of a few as if they could control the behavior of all those people. Eventually those attacks tore away at the credibility of OWS until it had no influence. Corporations didn't really need to react because the victim was successfully shamed. What I'm suggesting to you, isn't that facts don't matter and accuracy isn't important. What I'm suggesting is that this is how the other side fights back. They attack you politically so that your political attacks become toothless. Do you think BLM is going to change their policies based on TOJO conversations? Of course not. So these conversations help to shield the police and aid and abet their crimes by effectively silencing their opponents. Because if they cannot shut you up they'll instead make other stop listening and that's what they're doing to BLM just as they successfully did with OWS. And now... the same problem OWS was protesting still exists and what's being done about it? Nothing. So accuracy can be used as a tool of political science, just like "fake news" was effectively used in the last election.