Jedi up

JamesSand wrote: Okay I'm being difficult and grumpy, but I believe that the threat of denial of identity and being part of a group you like being a part of is a fairly useful motivator, and it has been for years, and probably still will be.

In fact, as far as I can tell, children who don't experience this feeling at least once in a while turn out to be arseholes.


When children, pets, (and as it turns out, adults) act up or behave uncooperatively (in children it is drawing on the walls, in pets it is peeing on the floor, and in adults it tends to either be wallowing in self pity or having fantastic flights of ego) the best action can simply be to Ignore them. Pets and children are quick to detect when they are on the "out" of someone's acceptance. Adults you sometimes have to frame the "ignore" a bit more dramatically (because adults are stupid) with "you are being ignored, and now you're not invited to the wedding" or "you are being ignored, and now we are offering the promotion to someone else" or "you are being ignored, and we are taking our business elsewhere"

Take Motorcycle clubs for example, if you don't attend the club meets, you don't participate in fundraising bake sales, and you don't portray a good public image for responsible road use, you get "ignored" (they don't invite you to renew your membership, and you lose your discount at local retailers and servicing workshops)

It's a roundabout way of saying "biker up"


Now that's the GOOD, when the chide is used for positive effect,

the BAD is when self appointed grand poobahs and everything police use it to say anyone and everything that they don't like is failing to meet a standard they (apparently) believe in.

YOU'RE not being a REAL cabinet maker!

Do we have some of those here? Absolutely!

Do they know who they are? Maybe, Maybe not.

Some are probably straight up jerks, some are probably in a mindset where they think they are doing the best thing.

I know I've been guilty of it myself, either in this forum, or in other realms of life. Sometimes I am probably right, because occasionally I am actually the expert on a subject, and sometimes I am probably being an arrogant ego driven twat.

The answer, theoretically, is divining when someone is "pushing" you to do "better" and when they're a jerk.

Doing that, when you're already in a "low" position is all the harder.

Which is generally why cult leaders, financial advisors, US military recruiters, and other assorted scum prey on the lost, isolated, and confused, because they'll take a "leg up" from any fraudster who can pretend to offer one.

There's a few people I know who call them selves doctors, doesnt mean they actually are, or that 'll ever go to them to for health care...

There's a few people I know who call them selves doctors, doesnt mean they actually are, or that 'll ever go to them to for health care...

Well that's a fantastic anecdote about your ability to make choices about your healthcare.

I guess more relevant would be - Do you tell them they are not doctors, and do they care about your authority to judge their status as successful members of the doctoring community?

(to put it another way, if a New Yorker told me I was failing at being Australian, I'd be too busy choking on my vegemite and timtams to care. They could give me a thousand word essay on how I've failed, and all I'd do is spill lamington crumbs on my mambo shirt.)

I have no idea where you sit in the medical profession, if at all, so I'm not commenting so much on your ability to judge doctors one way or another, just that a big part of the issue around "X up" is that you have to assume it is coming from someone who believes they exemplify or at least are aware of the expectations of X.



(I may be losing my point somewhere in all this, but to circle back to my original sort of vibe - the act of saying "Jedi Up" is not necessarily bad. It can come from a place of compassion, a sort of "Hey, we've all been there, I know where your head is at, but we know the direction we need to be heading"

Or, y'know, it can be a "I'm smarter than you and better at this, and I'm just letting you know, by staring down my long nose and telling you to be better, to my standards, hmph, back in my day REAL Jedi wouldn't have got themselves into YOUR situation, you pathetic excuse for a living organism"


I don't really see that having a framed Certificate of Jediism on your wall has any bearing on the interaction between people at all, but I guess you've given me a good example of

"Well the discussion of Jedi up is moot, because they're not even real jedi anyway!"

:silly: :lol:




(I'm not entirely comfortable with how I'm using the word Jedi, because I don't really see it as something you Are or Are Not, it's something you're interested in, something you study, and use in your life, it's not an identity. I guess it's the difference between "I play soccer" and "I'm a soccer player" )

JamesSand wrote: Well that's a fantastic anecdote about your ability to make choices about your healthcare.
I guess more relevant would be - Do you tell them they are not doctors, and do they care about your authority to judge their status as successful members of the doctoring community?

I mean the ones that aren't actually doctors who think they are(meaning the guy who sais that to pick up women but really just works a tire shop) yeah I do, not to long ago recently forced one off the scene via law enforcement because he tried to pull that on an accident scene and would have caused severe harm to people involved.

But There are a few people who have been doctors for some time and are just out of practice that I wouldn't trust with my life anymore, at least not in a critical moment.

JamesSand wrote: (to put it another way, if a New Yorker told me I was failing at being Australian, I'd be too busy choking on my vegemite and timtams to care. They could give me a thousand word essay on how I've failed, and all I'd do is spill lamington crumbs on my mambo shirt.)
I have no idea where you sit in the medical profession, if at all, so I'm not commenting so much on your ability to judge doctors one way or another, just that a big part of the issue around "X up" is that you have to assume it is coming from someone who believes they exemplify or at least are aware of the expectations of X.
(I may be losing my point somewhere in all this, but to circle back to my original sort of vibe - the act of saying "Jedi Up" is not necessarily bad. It can come from a place of compassion, a sort of "Hey, we've all been there, I know where your head is at, but we know the direction we need to be heading"

Or, y'know, it can be a "I'm smarter than you and better at this, and I'm just letting you know, by staring down my long nose and telling you to be better, to my standards, hmph, back in my day REAL Jedi wouldn't have got themselves into YOUR situation, you pathetic excuse for a living organism"

I don't really see that having a framed Certificate of Jediism on your wall has any bearing on the interaction between people at all, but I guess you've given me a good example of

"Well the discussion of Jedi up is moot, because they're not even real jedi anyway!"

(I'm not entirely comfortable with how I'm using the word Jedi, because I don't really see it as something you Are or Are Not, it's something you're interested in, something you study, and use in your life, it's not an identity. I guess it's the difference between "I play soccer" and "I'm a soccer player" )

To the rest of this especially the certificate I do find kind of interesting because while yes, we all get certificates saying we passed, we all still do have to maintain a license, which requires renewal, which requires not only proof that we still are knowledgeable, but also practical testing of skills and hands on to show that we do still in fact know what were doing and have been keeping up practice to earn the right to take care of others.

What is sad about that process is the organizations that fail to hold the standard and pass people who don't keep up because they are "friends" or "long standing members". I have to...on occasion...deal with the side effects of those individuals often being mis-treated or mis-diagnosed for what some might call...the basics of health care.

But all that aside, do I deserve the right to do that to Jedi, no not really, which is part of why I'm in the position I'm in now, but at the same time, but that's not necessarily the point I'm intending to make, which is that since no one can come to a consensus, no one really has the right to even define what being Jedi is really, except for themselves, in which case the use of the title is not only irrelevant because there is no consensus definition but actually harmful in most cases because as the term keeps getting used its definition being different for everybody just makes it extremely confusing.

The title is of itself used purely for communicating an idea or series of idea's. If I talk about an orange we all know what an orange is its defined. But if I talk about a sarcalomoniafaboliamelon no one knows what that is but me, because I just invented it in my head, I could describe and you have an idea great but until I do it caries no meaning. Since no one can agree on what Jedi is, then it in and of itself caries no meaning, and should not be used. The whole thing is fake really...

Everytime "Jedi" is used, its essentially a false statement, or a lie, because what I see it as and what you see it as is different. So if it only caries meaning for yourself then why use it at all? It's just straight up confusing.

A more interesting discussion is what would you use instead, I mean we already have a word for it being "belief". It's my "belief" that such and such or such and such. Perhaps it should be temple of the belief order because that would be more verbiage appropriate =p.

Yet it's actually based on a thing, on a definition from the movies, one that has been changed and tweaked over the years to better match reality, but continues to be changed and tweaked to fit everyones needs rather then everyone to fit it, and since no one seems to be interested in stopping that terrible pattern then is it really a thing.

You can take a rock and grind at it and grind at it and take a few chunks out, it might still be a rock, but continue and continue and continue and its not a rock anymore it's dust, then continue to do more things to it and then its concrete, or any number of other things. But it's not a rock, silly to keep saying it is isn't it?

I mean the ones that aren't actually doctors who think they are(meaning the guy who sais that to pick up women but really just works a tire shop) yeah I do, not to long ago recently forced one off the scene via law enforcement because he tried to pull that on an accident scene and would have caused severe harm to people involved.

Funny you should use that as a comparison. I would say plenty of lives are at risk due to incompetent tyre fitting. How many cars are on the road? I sure hope the people in tyre shops arn't lying to impress me, and they're actually only doctors!

Yet it's actually based on a thing, on a definition from the movies, one that has been changed and tweaked over the years to better match reality, but continues to be changed and tweaked to fit everyones needs rather then everyone to fit it, and since no one seems to be interested in stopping that terrible pattern then is it really a thing.

It only has to make sense to two people at a time (or one, if you're talking to yourself), and then it works as a concept.

And, well, that's always going to be a limitation of language and natural communication.

I say "Hurry up, we're going to be late, we should be doing at least sixty"

everyone in the car knows what I mean.

I post that online, I've got a much bigger and varied audience. Do I mean sixty miles per hour? sixty kilometres per hour? sixty metres per second? (if for some reason I am in a very fast car, and talking to engineers)

What am I late for? work? a birthday party? a funeral? the bridge opening schedule?

It's all obvious to the immediate audience, and complete nonsense to everyone else.

It's not....practicable to have a different Jedi Religion Temple Website Thing for every possible nuance in meaning, so we make do (with the probably hundreds of websites, geocities web rings, or whathaveyou). It's not necessarily the end of the world (or Jediism*)




*I'm sure I've said before that the word Jedi is the worst thing for the Jedi faith.

Tellahane wrote: Yet it's actually based on a thing, on a definition from the movies, one that has been changed and tweaked over the years to better match reality, but continues to be changed and tweaked to fit everyones needs rather then everyone to fit it, and since no one seems to be interested in stopping that terrible pattern then is it really a thing.

The thing is. All other potential discussions aside. Every one of these changes and tweaked versions has at least a CORE likness.

Setting aside your sensitivities and negative lenses when someone tells you to "Jedi up" it refers not to a specific version of Jedi Belief (Namely your own) but to the CORE likness of Jedi Keystones (Just Jedi's term for Doctirne, Behavior, Belief) It is saying "Your trolling, arguing and behaving unbecoming of the CORE likness of what Jedi stand for. Straiten out your issues and get back on track."

We all know that cultural and religious background difference's will make the crayon box deluxe sized....but we are all still crayons in some fashion or another and if we set aside our need to bicker and argue negative spins we can all see at least that much.

Trisskar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: ...it refers not to a specific version of Jedi Belief (Namely your own) but to the CORE likness of Jedi Keystones (Just Jedi's term for Doctirne, Behavior, Belief) It is saying "Your trolling, arguing and behaving unbecoming of the CORE likness of what Jedi stand for. Straiten out your issues and get back on track...

I very much hope that some day that is true, in that every "Jedi" has a "CORE Likeness" but until things like doctrine/behavior/belief/maxims etc ever get properly taught and enforced and not taught as do what you want with em or ignore them either is ok, then the core never exists. Otherwise I would agree with you 100%.

Even those that claim the title Jedi and ignore the Keystones (Doctrines, behaviors, beliefs) Are still practicing a moral concept that reflects the core. Christian, Bhuddhist, Pagan.....if they are not condoning: Unhealthy Selfishness, Abuse, and Ignorance then they are at least on a trail of Ashla (Lightside) ideals. Written concepts are not and never be a stagnated effect. Moral Humanity at least is.

And don't get me wrong. I totally believe a standard Jedi is better than a Whatever Jedi.....But we can all at least relate to "Goodness" and refer to that goodness when confronting terms like "Jedi Up."

I very much hope that some day that is true, in that every "Jedi" has a "CORE Likeness" but until things like doctrine/behavior/belief/maxims etc ever get properly taught and enforced and not taught as do what you want with em or ignore them either is ok, then the core never exists. Otherwise I would agree with you 100%.

This is something you'll just have to bend your head around in your own way, because it'll never be enforceable.

Heck, I can call myself Emperor of Russia, and no one is likely to stop me printing business cards (Although I have no doubt that Putin has the resources, if for some reason he saw me as a credible threat to his government)

And of all the things to get distressed about, Jediism is not a good choice. States of any given country can't even agree on something as simple as the legal age of sexual consent or motor vehicle licensing policy - you've got bugger all chance of a fairly vague religion really nailing down the details and procedures to your liking.

I don't get around the... let's call it "Jediism Fandom" as much as Triss, so I can't speculate as to how similar the groups are in general, but it should be (theoretically) safe to assume to any "TotJo Jedi" are singing from the same music, as per the Doctrine page. (yes yes, it's not "enforced" people "pick and choose their brand of jediism", but it's an accessible, published benchmark we can all agree to be aware of, if not necessarily shape our entire existence around something the internet told us to do.

On a more entertaining note If you want to see some real fireworks, join a Vegan forum and ask if you're allowed to eat honey.....)

JamesSand wrote: I don't get around the... let's call it "Jediism Fandom" as much as Triss,

hahaha! omg....Sorry Im cracking up over here Thanks for that LOL

As to the old age question of "what is a jedi and what isn't?", the bottom line is that anyone can theoretically call themselves a Jedi (and believe in his claim to the title) solely on the fact of having derived some sort of inspiration from the Star Wars fiction. The elements from the fiction each person draws upon can be radically different, and that makes for potentially myriad different Jedi types.

That said, identity labels go only so far used privately (I can inspire myself by pep talking to myself using the "J" word), but, being social beings, we crave some sort of group belonging, and thus there isam bound to be a level of dissatisfaction when I've been making huge progress in life by using the Jedi label as a motivator, only to clash with a community that does not acknowledge my claim to the title. The need for validation is real.

This need for validation can then be properly used by the group to guide the individual to a standard guideline of behaviors. If executed well, leadership communicates and embodies this collective culture, and individuals assimilate it. If poorly executed, it is perceived as disingenuos or manipulative, and certain individuals will choose either to leave, rebel, or accept the culture.

So, "Jedi up" CAN be used as a positive motivator, and will be perceived as such especially when the individual receiving the instruction has accepted the collective culture, and especially when the emitter of the message embodies said culture, and moreso if they already have established an otherwise good rapport.

Otherwise, it is perceived as hypocritical (why ask me to be a Jedi if you wont act like one?), or dismissive (I have a grievance I need to address and you will not listen to me).

In the end, of course, I feel it concerns us all to work on growing our emotional intelligence, so we can identify and acknowledge if and when communication triggers us, and learn to deal with those feelings maturely, assuming the best rather than the worst intent in communication.