The Charlottesville debate - or a lack of it

ren wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Nazi symbolism, by its very nature, perpetuates violence.

The swastika is a sacred symbol in hinduism, jainism and buddhism, and like its name, that's where the symbol comes from (ancient hinduism). It's 5000 years old at least. So, I beg to differ.

You can beg to differ all you'd like, but that doesn't make you right. The fylfot used in Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism is visually distinct from the Nazi swastika, a uniquely positioned and easily recognizable one. Nazi symbolism is violence because it speaks to values and traditions that encourage violence against minorities. You cannot display Nazi symbolism outside a museum or fictional film without endorsing violence. It's not possible. Therefore, Nazi symbolism--unqiue as it is--is hate speech on its own, and provocative of violence.

I found something really stupid on the internet , this is the level of people we are dealing with , the sheer stupidity of Megans reasoning and her utter lack of logic is mindboggling , there might be a difference in violence , but people who want people dead , are violent ... and Jedi have no bussiness with violence , we never seek the way of violence , untill there is no other way and we have to Defend ! And that is where my problem is with a lot of things that have been said in this thread .... We dont start violent acts , we act on violent acts and that is not when someone is wearing , or swearing or flagging , its when someone uses actual violence. Off course we can be verbal when we see someone doing these things , but we dont use physical violence ,,that is just not on !

Warning , foul language and confusing logic.

How is that confusing logic? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Williamkaede wrote: How is that confusing logic? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Anti Fascists want people dead ...

Amyntas wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: How is that confusing logic? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Anti Fascists want people dead ...

....and wanting people dead is BAD

Brick wrote:

Amyntas wrote:

Williamkaede wrote: How is that confusing logic? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Anti Fascists want people dead ...

....and wanting people dead is BAD

Right

steamboat28 wrote:

ren wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: Nazi symbolism, by its very nature, perpetuates violence.

The swastika is a sacred symbol in hinduism, jainism and buddhism, and like its name, that's where the symbol comes from (ancient hinduism). It's 5000 years old at least. So, I beg to differ.

You can beg to differ all you'd like, but that doesn't make you right. The fylfot used in Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism is visually distinct from the Nazi swastika, a uniquely positioned and easily recognizable one. Nazi symbolism is violence because it speaks to values and traditions that encourage violence against minorities. You cannot display Nazi symbolism outside a museum or fictional film without endorsing violence. It's not possible. Therefore, Nazi symbolism--unqiue as it is--is hate speech on its own, and provocative of violence.

Hmm in my ancestry there were victims of nazis and no nazi sympathisers, yet, I fail to feel the violence this symbolism supposedly perpetrates.

Also your point about the shape and orientation of the swastika is absolute garbage, and only displays your ignorance of history and asian cuture. Do you not know what aryan means, or where that word comes from?

ren wrote: Also your point about the shape and orientation of the swastika is absolute garbage, and only displays your ignorance of history and asian cuture. Do you not know what aryan means, or where that word comes from?

Of course the angle does not matter, I guess, but the clockwise and counter-clockwise does in some cultures. There is a difference in how the swastika is drawn.. the main difference with Nazi swastika is the color and not the position, completely black, though not often seen there are exceptions as the Nazi used red swastika`s and the Buddhists used black swastika`s as well (ink drawings for example). Native Americans and actually many other cultures also knew the swastika and thus it is not only seen in Asian culture.

https://noriohayakawa.wordpress.com/2016/02/10/the-difference-between-the-buddhist-swastika-symbol-and-the-nazi-swastika-symbol/

Greek swastika`s, Nordic swastika`s, Christian swastika`s and Phoenician swastika`s in scotland..
http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/symbol-swastika-and-its-12000-year-old-history-001312

Amazon swastika`s, middle east swastika`s, Mezine swastika`s
https://steemit.com/history/@levycore/swastika-symbols-used-by-worldwide-of-all-ages

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." -- Maya Angelou

This is not the 1930-40's. We're not talking about German soldiers who may not have personally known the full scale of the horrors perpetrated in the name of Nazism.

We are talking about people right now today who do know the full scope and intentionally select specifically Nazi imagery and align themselves with those atrocities on purpose. They are showing us who they are.

How many people need to be intimidated, or maimed, or killed, before people decide, "Gee, I guess these guys really DO mean all this Nazi stuff. Well golly gosh."? One? Nope, apparently not enough because more than one is dead and we're still having this conversation. 10? 100? 1,000? Millions?

Someone carrying a Nazi flag and throwing a Hitler salute has just made it known that they intend to do me harm. They have already made the initial attack. The clock is now ticking. How many times must I let them attack me, before it's OK with you all that I defend myself?

Also, to be clear, there are a sizable number of Antifa who don't want to have to kill Nazis. They are simply willing to do so in self-defense and in the protection of others. They'd rather the Nazis just stop being Nazis. I'd rather the Nazis stop being Nazis, too, but if surviving a confrontation with an actual Nazi in my face requires "aggressive negotiations" on my part then you know...I train in martial arts for a reason.

The Nazis want certain groups of people to stop existing--not because of anything these groups have done, just because they are--and since their inception Nazis have used systematic violence and murder in order to achieve those aims. The other side wants the Nazis to not kill people. Not killing innocent people IS the middle ground here. You can't meet halfway with Nazis like, "Oh hey, you know, sure let's compromise--you get to kill the Jews and the blacks but leave the gays." No. No. No.

Does that mean you can't have conversations with friends you find spouting Nazi ideology? Sure, please do. Try to talk some sense into them. Try to talk some sense into every Nazi you come across, if it is safe for you to do so. You don't need to immediately go to your fist. But if you are a member of one of the groups under attack, and the Nazi coming at you is a complete stranger, please understand that you won't know if you have time to have a nice soul-searching talk before they try to beat you to a bloody pulp.

BTW, these obfuscating comments about iconography and how the swastika is used elsewhere are completely disingenuous. You all know a Nazi flag when you see one. You all know the people in Charlottesville were not a bunch of Buddhists who got confused and bought the wrong flags for their meditation retreat. Just stop.



That's all I've got to say about that. If you still have questions, try re-reading what I said.

The people in chatlottesville with swastikas are not confused? What are they?