The Charlottesville debate - or a lack of it

Positive thought challenged? Just dropping humor otherwise I'm staying out this one.....

These are my observations, as an outsider. You will have to forgive any inaccuracies, as most of what I know is based off of mainstream media and conversation with people living in the States.

What I see, is a lot of angry people in America. When you are backed into a corner and treated unfairly, and feel like others are ganging up on you, the natural response is to seek others who share a similar experience to form your own gang.

Slavery happened. It was terrible beyond words. And even 150 years after it ended, racism is still prevalent. It is no longer sanctioned by law, but it still lingers in the collective culture of the country.

Many people who belong to minority groups are still angry. They might have suffered racism first hand, or grew up in families who suffered it. In any case, they learned a long time ago to be "weary of the white man" and his oppressive rule.

There are of course many people who are in these minority groups who get along well with others, but they don't make the news. The news highlights the radical, the disruptive, the ones to still hang on to the hate (or at least the fear) of injustice.

The problem is, now you have a whole generation of young white men who, in the name of progressiveness, have had their own opportunities diminished. White men that otherwise had no problem with racial differences, but are whispered in the ear by those who are racists: "look, affirmative action took your chances. Look, these people of X racial group have done this and that against you". And of course, these young white men, absorbing information that is fed by the incendiary media, will soon begin to feel himself backed up against the wall.

I would bet most people don't give a rats ass about race. They simply want to work, live peacefully and prosper.

But with fear mongering done by the media, by extremist groups and by a deficient education system, people feel as if they are forced to take sides.

It is a false dichotomy. But people take sides, and then cannot escape the cognitive disonnance that would occur if they were to stop supporting their side.

Now, your solution is to PUNCH them? Awesome. I'm sure that will work. I'm sure that will not make them feel even more alienated and likely to feel that their hate is justified. (In case you missed it, that was sarcasm).

I am personally disgusted by Nazism. But you cannot START violence if you want peace. You CAN "punch" them in other legal ways, as Connor said, donating to groups that oppose them, boycotting their businesses, and especially STARVING them from the attention they are getting, to put out this fire and come back to the table to TALK.

But you cannot go above the law and attack a person just because you don't agree with their hateful ideology. You just prove them right if you do that.

If Nazism is illegal in Germany, I see no reason why it cannot be made it illegal in the USA. Push for THAT in Congress. But you change the world by working within the Law, not outside of it.

Except of course, for the instances in which people DO become violent. And in those cases, it matters not your ideology. If you are violent, you are to be held accountable to the law of the land.

There is an old parable, often found in the form of the "Farmer and the Viper" from Aesop's Fables...I like this version most...

Native American Legends
The Little Boy and the Rattlesnake
A Cherokee Legend

Often times young boys were sent from the village in search of a vision. This was the case of one particular young native boy.

He started to go up to the top of a mountain in search of his vision. And as he climbed up the mountain, the air got cooler and cooler. And he came upon a snake laying in the path. The snake was shivering, and said to the boy. "Please help me. I can't move, I am so cold that I can no longer make it any further down the mountain."

The boy said to the snake "No way! You're a snake, if I pick you up, you'll bite me!" The snake replied. "No, no I won't, I promise I won't bite you if you'll only pick me up and help get me down the mountain."

So the young boy picked up the snake, put him in hist shirt, and continued climbing to the top of the mountain in search of his vision. When he got back down to the bottom of the mountain, he reached in, took out the snake, and the snake bit the young boy.

The boy replied to the snake "Hey! You bit me, you said that if I'd help you out, that you wouldn't bite me!"

The snake replied "But you knew what I was when you picked me up!"

*************

The moral is generally explained as something to the effect of how kindness to known evil is foolish.

My question here, however, is whether that moral suggests we should punch every snake in the face on the mere premise that they are a snake?

Or could we simply avoid snakes as a rule (which I venture most of us here do), and simply acknowledge them for what they are, call them out when we see them so others do not suffer, but otherwise leave them alone?

Snakes deserve to live on this planet just as much as a hawk, or a mouse, or you, or I. Who am I to go around trying to rid the earth of snakes simply to avoid ever getting bitten?

A last thought...knowing an unanswered question here remains...sure, I can be as careful as careful can be, and still get bitten by a snake someday. Should that happen I may be better justified to meet violence with violence, and defend myself from being bitten further. Still though, what would chasing down the snake who bit me accomplish? It is often actually ill-advised in remote areas to waste time trying to chase and kill a snake who bit you or a friend in seeking that passionate justice of the moment, and best to (knowing what it was that bit you) seek immediate professional care.

I'll let you draw the conclusions on how this fits into the discussion any further.

I understand that what many of you see is a group of nazis who deserve to be getting their butts kicked, and a nazi attacking a mob of people with his car. I condemn that car attack without hesitation. I dont agree with or support nazi ideology. But theres more to the story than what is being covered by CNN, and there is context that i think most people arent considering.

When it comes to rallies and protests: IMO we have to condemn all forms of illegal violence, and all violence that isnt in self defense of a direct attack. Thats doesnt mean i sympathize with nazis or want them to exist, it means (to me) that i have a developed set of ethics which apply to all people, which are based on how to organize a society in a just and rational way. This was a legally sanctioned rally to protest the removal of historical monument. Some of the people who held that rally were nazis. Some were not. All were within their rights as US citizens. Antifa came to that rally with weapons and face masks, blocking roads and attacking people with clubs, pepper spray, bottles, balloons full of paint and ink and possibly human waste. Which they have been doing about since Trump began his presidential campaign.

For all the talk about the evil nazis, no one here seems to consider that antifa are communist organization. Communists have killed WAY MORE people than nazis. Antifa promote an ideology that has resulted in vastly more murders, executions, imprisonments, invasions, and even genocides, than the nazis did. Im not saying communists are WORSE than nazis; im saying that both groups are so historically terrible that neither side can be seen as "the good guy" or be justified by reasonable people today. The universities have been taken over for decades with communist sympathizers and its common for "edgy" (lol) people make heroes out of figures like Che Guevara, but f you think that communism was somehow NOT a destructive or evil force in the same moral sphere as nazism, then you are, forgive me, ignorant as bloody hell about communism.

Antifa is a communist group which has been using violence and terrorist tactics at various right wing (NOT NAZI) events for the last year nearly, without the mainstream media saying a word about it. Trump rallies and conservative speakers at college campuses are not nazi gatherings, but they are targets of violence for antifa. This is why I oppose them. THEY CALL EVERYONE NAZIS and then attack them on that justification.

Bonus points: Who in this discussion (without consulting the internet) can define and explain fascism?

Further Reading, if youre interested

The Light Aspect (now called Armonia) at Force Academy has been working on a statement pertaining to all of this. If anyone cares to read over our statement, this reflects the Jedi Path as WE teach it. As I wrote this and took some input from the Head of the Aspect, it reflects my direct beliefs on the subject.

17 August 2017

America's current political atmosphere serves as a reminder to us that walking the Jedi Path is not as easy as we would like to believe. Especially in a polarized atmosphere where we feel the need to pick a side. If we look to the Jedi Path, we have to take the most difficult side of all: The side of the people which either refuse to engage in violence, or those that only defend against an active assailant. This also means that we must take a stance against anyone which would promote speech that has inspired others to violence. People that meet this description are those that align with White Supremacy, the Klu Klux Klan, Nazism, and the modern organization ANTIFA ideologies (not to be confused with the commendable belief that fascism itself is evil).

Although it may seem like it is wrong to put these groups on the same moral playing field, it is important for us to return to the Jedi Philosophy taught by Armonia in order to see how we reach this conclusion.

Duty to All

Armonia's Jedi Code states that “we face adversity with wisdom and knowledge”. If we look across the world, we see that these wars over ideology end in massive tolls to innocents. In the Middle East, Israel is targeted by a number of Islamic Terrorist organizations which incite the people to violence against a nation that could live in peaceful cohabitation. The cycle is continued when Israel retaliates. This cycle has continued for generations and continues to take the lives of innocent bystanders. On a smaller scale, this same trend is seen in famous family feuds which tend to end in a brutal way. The Strangio-Nirtas and Pelle-Vottari-Romeos feud, for example, resulted in the shooting of 6 men who were believed to have moved to Germany in an attempt to escape the clan's fighting.

These incidents serve to remind us that people who want no part in the war can still get caught in the cross-fire. And in the case of the Strangio-Nirtas and Pelle-Vottari-Romeos feud, there may be no escape once the hatred has settled deeply in.

Respect the Law

We know and understand that neither the law nor humans are perfect. However, there is wisdom in having trained personnel deal with criminals instead of the average citizen. When an individual is faced with something they hate, they can no longer be seen as objective in their dealings with the person. It can be blinding, and therefore we call in trained personnel to help us deal with them.

This is where Armonia cannot stand behind the actions of anyone that strikes the first blow. The events in Charlottesville, VA revealed that those with ideologies aligning with White Supremacy, the KKK, Nazis and even ANTIFA lacked discipline when they faced what they hated before them. They decided , in those moments, that American law which gave them rights to peacefully assemble was not enough to win their cause and took it a step further: Assault.

Tolerance

Worst of all was the vehicular attack that left one dead and 19 more injured. The actions of James Alex Fields, Jr demonstrated extremist Right-Wing ideology in action. This is not the first time that ideologies have convinced people that could have once been considered good people to commit absolutely horrible actions against their fellow man. .

In 2015, under the influence of his White Supremacy research following the riots in Ferguson, MO and Baltimore, MD, Dylann Roof went to a Black Church in Charleston, SC and murdered 9 members of the congregation and injured one. Between the violence of extremists that hijacked the Black Lives Matter movement and the passive yet “compelling” arguments of those that oppose the Black Community as a whole, a terrorist was born. Thus, we cannot support the ideologies that are promoted by the hateful or the ideology of wanton violence, for they lead to disregard for the law.

If we pay attention to what the Force tells us, we find that we live in a connected world, and as such must respect how inter-connected everyone's actions are to one another. Our role in life is to support the people that we believe should inherit this world- and that is not the people who spread hate or those that spread violence.

I was hoping Some News would do a piece on this. So here ya go.

Yes, they are a comedy group, but they raise some good points. So enjoy some facts with a side of giggles

LThe video was funny and entertaining. It was also a perfect example of whats wrong with media today: the shallownes of a culture that values entertainment over journalsm and conflates clever, biting commentary with thorough and accurate exposition. We've become so intellectually dull that wit passes for wisdom, and so savage as to prefer insult to insight.

If youre wanting to debate the issue of the statues coming down then i have to disappoint you; i dont really care. I see those statues as irrelevant either way. Neither the lives of black people as a group, nor any individual black person, nor the general state of race relations in American society are going to be improved- not in the slightest -by removing a few statues. Actuallly, i think it makes them worse overall, but theres so much more important topics to focus on that i think its stupid to even acknowledge some lumps on rock in a park. Things like police culture (militarization, policies and procedures, steroids, BODY-CAMS) the drug war and the prison industry, increasing and improving education and infra-structure in low income areas, and encouraging entrepreneurship, especially among people at the bottom of the economic ladder. Thats how we could end racism in two generations, but i digress.

Some of you are only seeing is this one incident, whereas what i am looking a is a steadily increasing level of polarization and extremism. One side escalates, the natural and inevitable response is for the other side to escalate. Blood in the streets ensues.

Lets all agree on the premises that nazis are bad, racism is bad, and murder is bad. Im completely on your side there. Now lets talk about the law, and about this specific incident: The law allows for protests and demonstrations. We may not approve of the ideology of the protestors, but they had the legal right to what they were doing. Those statues were coming down regardless, the whites were bitching, but to no real effect, becauze the decision was already made.

Now, there is a legal process whereby groups who wish to demonstrate must obtain permits from the government. Among the items included in these permits are designations for where the protesters are allowed to be, as well as the route/s they are to take in order to get there. The nazis, white supremacists, and alt-righters, had a legallly designated route to a legally designated destination. Thats the law, and they were acting within it.

Antifa showed up with masks and weapons to block the route and the destination.
Which was actually against the law. Of course, antifa has been showing up with weapons to attack people and set things on fire for so long now that the nazis very well knew what to expect, and brought shields and weaponry of their own. Thats how escalation works, im watching it happen and im saying that Antifa is more responsible for that escalation than anyone else and that its only going to get worse. Which is why we have to denounce antifa, and any other group which deliberately engages in violence (which includes nazis, just to be clear)

Im not defending the nazis here. The person responsible for the car attack was the driver of the car. What i am saying is that antifa is ALSO an extremist, violent group, and their illegal presence and activity was ALSO a contributing factor to this death. Most importantly, im saying that they are one of the forces responsible for increasing the level of extremism and violence in todays political discourse.

Antifa bike lock assault


Chomsky: Antifa is a gift to the right


Openly gay, right wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos on antifa


Ben Shapiro on antifa

If anyone wants to hear from the horses mouth why at least one person thought it appropriate to respond with violence:

https://crimethinc.com/2017/08/17/why-we-fought-in-charlottesville-a-letter-from-an-anti-fascist-on-the-dangers-ahead

What is disturbing in the article is this:

"What if things had gone differently? What if we had done as the mayor recommended and stayed away from Emancipation Park, so as not to “feed into a cycle of violence”? What if the rally had proceeded as planned? What if Nazis and white supremacists had been able to build momentum into the night? Based on what I saw Friday and Saturday, there is no doubt in my mind what would have happened next: they would have terrorized the city of Charlottesville. They would have left their leadership a degree of plausible deniability, broken into smaller groups, and killed and injured any number of people in decentralized locations throughout the city. It was to be their Kristallnacht, their burning cross, their triumphant return."

Minority Report and Psycho-Pass called, they wanted to point out the dangers of this kind of prophetic thinking.

Alethea Thompson wrote: If anyone wants to hear from the horses mouth why at least one person thought it appropriate to respond with violence:

https://crimethinc.com/2017/08/17/why-we-fought-in-charlottesville-a-letter-from-an-anti-fascist-on-the-dangers-ahead

What is disturbing in the article is this:

"What if things had gone differently? What if we had done as the mayor recommended and stayed away from Emancipation Park, so as not to “feed into a cycle of violence”? What if the rally had proceeded as planned? What if Nazis and white supremacists had been able to build momentum into the night? Based on what I saw Friday and Saturday, there is no doubt in my mind what would have happened next: they would have terrorized the city of Charlottesville. They would have left their leadership a degree of plausible deniability, broken into smaller groups, and killed and injured any number of people in decentralized locations throughout the city. It was to be their Kristallnacht, their burning cross, their triumphant return."

Minority Report and Psycho-Pass called, they wanted to point out the dangers of this kind of prophetic thinking.

This is what happens when we build a society based on fear and prejudice, rather than reason. The right also does this sort of fear-mongering media. As Jedi, I expect us to see through it.

There is no justification of violence unless in self defense.
Antifa is a domestic terrorist organization. They are a terrible organization which has committed terrible actions. In this I will not budge. Friends of mine have been assaulted by Antifa members, thrown in front of cars. Friends of mine are the victims of physical assault by antifa members, and their organization has not spoken out against this violence.

I openly condemn Antifa members and those who support this terrorist organization. Just like any other. I will not make exceptions in this. You who support Antifa are no better than Nazis yourselves, and that is a fact.

Our world is better without Naziism, but it should be defeated in the colosseum of public discourse. Committing acts of violence against people who are not committing acts of violence against you is unacceptable. Period. Try what you want with your BS rhetoric, I don't care. It's unacceptable.

That DOESN'T mean that the Nazi ideology is acceptable. Both are equally unacceptable. I am not afraid to say that I view Nazis and Antifa members in the same light. Both are equally responsible for the violence which took place in Charlottesville and both deserve the same punishment. There are things which are acceptable and there are things which are not acceptable, and the violence in Charlottesville in unacceptable. I don't give a damn who threw the first punch or who threw the last punch.

I am an anarchist. I stand strongly against any authoritarian regime. But these people do not speak for me. They are a scab, a scar, a smear on the face of the political philosophy I support. The Antifa organization disgusts me, truthfully, and any good person should be equally disgusted.