Citizens with guns

I totally agree. Knives are SUPER dangerous. Thats why I carry one. I'd just rather use other stuff. Preferably non lethal. I have a Kabar and a Karambit. I lean more on the Karambit though due to its concealed nature, even in use. I'd still take a club or a couple Kali sticks first though. I also don't have a problem carrying a gun.

MadHatter: A standing use of force continuum is a good thing to always have in mind for those situations.

June 12, 2016, one man with a hand gun and a rifle manages to kill or wound over 100 people. How many lives would have been saved if there had been just one other armed person in that club?
Yes, I understand that if all guns were somehow removed from the planet then that could have saved lives... unless the man bent on destruction made some kind of bomb.
I also understand that just because there is another person with a gun doesn't mean they would be able to take the guy out before getting shot themselves.
Those two things not withstanding, isn't it obvious how armed citizens could have actually saved lives here?

CableSteele wrote: June 12, 2016, one man with a hand gun and a rifle manages to kill or wound over 100 people. How many lives would have been saved if there had been just one other armed person in that club?
Yes, I understand that if all guns were somehow removed from the planet then that could have saved lives... unless the man bent on destruction made some kind of bomb.
I also understand that just because there is another person with a gun doesn't mean they would be able to take the guy out before getting shot themselves.
Those two things not withstanding, isn't it obvious how armed citizens could have actually saved lives here?

As a Bisexual man I totally agree. A gun is a chance to fight back. A gun is a opportunity to protect your own and other peoples lives. I would rather live with the risk of gun violence and have a chance to fight then to live disarmed and still face the same lethal threats. Gun laws dont stop this Belgium and Paris prove that. My heart weeps for those impacted but if we are not to judge or malign and entire religion for this horror then we should not be judging those that chose to carry tools to protect themselves and others either.

Sure in ideal circumstances, but it also can be another source of more guns for the criminal, from the deceased - who using the element of surprise can control the situation more effectively then the startled unprepared public. When bullets are flying and many people are holding guns, in a darkened room, the confusion could actually play into the terrorists goals of higher body count as people make mistakes in their adhoc armed response.

The anti-argument here in Australia acknowledges its impossible to stop it outright, but its about reducing the chances of it happening. It goes something like; If guns are not in communities then they become harder to find, and they become more coveted with those who have them illegally which means they do not end up in any lone wolf pyscho's fantasy. Instead they tend to only pop up within organized crime groups. So this means authorities can have more appropriate levels of response across a wider range of their activities, and that possession can be punished, and punished hard, which means its more risky to possess. So coupled with buying them back off people who have then no questions asked, with appropriate restrictions on legal access and tight controls on illegal importation.... the theory, with all those factors together, is that the number on the street can be made to go down.

So IMO, that is impossible in the US, because there are already too many in circulation, and ignores that people can now make their own guns at home with those plastic manufacturing dodads.

So assuming gun control becomes impossible due to desktop manufacturing, it might have to go either strict entry point controls which removes all weapons (like a coat/cloak room for guns handing them back at exit), or just let everyone fend for themselves. The downside of the later is some people will be made vulnerable, such as foreigners who cannot legally carry a gun in the US (AFAIK) or people who for whatever reason are unable to operate a gun. But I wonder how many of the pro-gun people would even be happy handing over their weapon to an establishment.... I don't have any answers, but I feel happier knowing my neighbours don't have guns. Too many people have a few too many screws loose these days.

This happened 10 days before the Orlando incident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6imFvSua3Kg

Adder wrote: So assuming gun control becomes impossible due to desktop manufacturing, it might have to go either strict entry point controls which removes all weapons (like a coat/cloak room for guns handing them back at exit), or just let everyone fend for themselves. The downside of the later is some people will be made vulnerable, such as foreigners who cannot legally carry a gun in the US (AFAIK) or people who for whatever reason are unable to operate a gun. But I wonder how many of the pro-gun people would even be happy handing over their weapon to an establishment.... I don't have any answers, but I feel happier knowing my neighbours don't have guns. Too many people have a few too many screws loose these days.

I can get that but a lack of guns didnt stop Boston, it didnt stop Paris either. There was a video today of people attacking a cafe with home made firearms in Israel. Stopping this sort of thing cannot be done by law and it removes the chance of good people fighting back. This club was a gun free zone with pat downs for weapons and an armed cop as security doing the searches. He was shot first heroically trying to fight back. Had he had back up who knows. I dont believe guns are always the answer. As someone trained in their use I know they can fail like anything else. What I am saying is that laws do not seem to stop this stuff either. Heck in Australia biker gangs are MAKING guns. Frankly I can make a shotgun out of stuff from home depot. Its not hard if you are determined. Lack of guns wont stop explosives if people need to look for another method and you cant stop those from being made because they are too easy to make with over the counter stuff.
I do not have the answer. But I do know what has failed time and again. That is bits of paper that say we cant do something or own something. Those set on murder do not care about that. It only lets us punish people after the fact which is too little too late. I just wish we could simply mourn the dead and treat the wounded before getting into political stuff.

MadHatter wrote: I just wish we could simply mourn the dead and treat the wounded before getting into political stuff.

I agree. I also wish we didn't have the dead to mourn and I wish we didn't have the wounded to treat. I'm just searching for answers like everyone else.

MadHatter wrote: I just wish we could simply mourn the dead and treat the wounded before getting into political stuff.

If a mentally ill person/neo-Nazi/terrorist/whatever kills me with an assault rifle or some other weapon that they really shouldn't have had access to, I hope someone will honour my memory by immediately fighting to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

But that's just me.

Adi wrote:

MadHatter wrote: I just wish we could simply mourn the dead and treat the wounded before getting into political stuff.

If a mentally ill person/neo-Nazi/terrorist/whatever kills me with an assault rifle or some other weapon that they really shouldn't have had access to, I hope someone will honour my memory by immediately fighting to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

But that's just me.

I can get the sentiment. However defining who should not have access to what and deciding what would stop this are things that must be done carefully. People should not be limited in liberty due to the actions of bad people. Caution is my advice here. Trust me I loath these things as much as anyone and my heart weeps for those that are suffering right now. What I do not want are things done out of emotion and not logic that are feel good items only. Also take heart violence is going down in most first world nations every year and that is a good thing. The world is over all a good place that is trending better which is something we should not lose sight of in such times.

MadHatter wrote: Also take heart violence is going down in most first world nations every year and that is a good thing.

And the United States of America, the self-appointed greatest nation in the world, the so-called leader of the free world, is the only first world nation where there are, regularly, massacres at schools, churches, movie theatres, night clubs, etc. Why is that? Why do we stand alone in being a country where a madman or madmen can arm themselves like commandos and kill people who were just minding their business/attending school/enjoying themselves with friends?

This guy had been investigated by the FBI for terrorist ties before. He was cleared, sure, but the people who sold him the assault rifle and pistol he used in the massacre didn't even have access to that information. Do you really believe that is how things should be? Do you really support the NRA in its cultish obsession with making sure that there are absolutely no restrictions on guns whatsoever, even for people who are mentally ill/known terrorists/have histories of violent behaviour?

I still stand by what I said. If someone kills me in a mass shooting, I hope people don't come up with excuses to stick a thumb up their arse and do nothing about it. I hope people act. Though, given that we've adamantly refused to act after schoolchildren were massacred and a sitting Congresswoman was shot in the head, I'm almost certain that will never, ever happen. But I might come back to haunt you as a ghost anyways.