Citizens with guns

Edan wrote: Why are we a world obsessed with weapons? If we were obsessed with peace instead perhaps we wouldn't need them..

i dont believe that i am obsessed with violence, but if i am, its because ive seen it personally, and have been a victim of it, personally

Military family, it's just a logical assumption to make as a boy to prepare, when all males in your lineage have gone off to fight in wars. It doesn't make me a warmonger, I'm a peace lovin hippy
:woohoo:

MadHatter wrote: Weapons can indeed keep the peace, frankly a governments ability to keep the peace stems from the weapons used to enforce the law.

Not all police in all countries carry guns... a 'weapon' of law can be the courts, prison sentences, community service. All I can ever think is how much I dislike the phrase 'if you want peace, prepare for war'... but I'm a pacifist.. what would I know...!

Edan wrote:

MadHatter wrote: Weapons can indeed keep the peace, frankly a governments ability to keep the peace stems from the weapons used to enforce the law.

Not all police in all countries carry guns... a 'weapon' of law can be the law. All I can ever think is how much I dislike the phrase 'if you want peace, prepare for war'... but I'm a pacifist.. what would I know...!

The law can be the weapon true. But all law is backed up by the threat of force. At the end of the day all governments back up their laws and the peace with the threat of force and weapons against those that would violate the peace and peoples rights. Further you might dislike the phrase but its true. Peace can and often is maintained by force or the threat of it. I mean Ill put you in a hypothetical situation you are in a room full of babies and a man enters with an ax intent on killing every infant there. There is a gun right in your hand by magic do you stop the man or not? Do you let innocent people unable to defend themselves die when able to stop it? Because you can say you will tackle the man or what have you but are you willing to risk that YOU the only person able to stop this end up dead and then are just one more victim?
Yes this is an extreme and unlikely situation but the fact is that sometimes however rare it may be those willing to do harm raise their head and the authorities are not going to be there in time to stop it. In that moment we can be ready to meet it or not and lives may depend on it. Now how you choose to be ready and what level of readiness is up to you and I will not bash anyone for their choice in that situation. However I just as firmly believe that no one should have the right to dictate that choice to others. Meaning that if a person chooses to carry a weapon or to not to no one should be able to dictate that they cant make that choice in my opinion.

MadHatter wrote:

6h057 wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

6h057 wrote: My money will always go to the person whose weapon gives them the longest reach. A bat vs a knife, I will go with the bat. Unless you have an untrained fighter with a bat against a trained fighter with a knife. Two trained fighters, bat vs knife, the person with the bat is going to take up a defensive perspective and attack the knife fighters limbs. Nullifying the attackers ability to use their weapon. One decent defensive strike is going to break an arm. Assuming the knife fighter uses their dominant hand, they've not lost their advantage.

Right up until the person with the bat over balances due to the heaver weight and slower speed and the knife fighter closes the distance. That is why I said COULD if you know how to use them. A bat is not a fast weapon and unless you know how to use it I guarantee a dodge will be all it takes to close the gap and make the club very hard to use if not end the fight right then and there. Frankly a staff using spear techniques would be better as the spear can be used at close ranges. But thats not the point. My point is that you never want to give people that chance. You do not meet your opponent on equal or near equal footing if you want to live.

Overswing? The average Ash bat weighs around 2.6lbs. Some small knives weigh that much. The difference in weight vs. reach is negligible. Again, the persons behind the weapons being equal and having some personal experience with HEMA. A bat used like a short sword will end an attacker with a knife. Especially considering the general rule here is reach and skill. Weight generally doesn't even factor in. Short swords and long swords weight 3.5-5lbs. One defensive strike to an attacker's attacking limb is all it would take to break the limb and send the knife flying. Especially considering most modern knives have no cross guard to speak of. Samurai were just as deadly with boken as they were with a sword. Again, speaking from experience. Range wins. That being said, I use a mini Karambit as my walking to my car PDW. Reflexive punches and blocks are generally enough to unzip someone, and they are small enough to not be noticed. And lets be honest. Most people in back alleys trying to rob people, use a weapon due to lack of confidence in their ability to put up a real fight.

No KNIFE not sword but KNIFE you will encounter on the street will wight even close to that. My seven inch KABAR is only 0.7 pounds (0.32 kg). Further the bat is end heavy with its weight distributed much more unevenly the a sword making sudden stops and changes in direction MUCH MUCH more difficult so your weight of bat vs sword is a nonfactor. And your statement about crossguards is pointless as you do not deflect with a knife you dodge or block with your free hand. In fact if the knife fighter is willing to take the hit while moving in and blocking with a free hand you can very very easily stab a person with a club before they refocus. Further most people that are not trained will not use a bat like a short sword they will use two hand limiting reach and increasing the odds of binding themselves up on an overswing. The fact is that we are not talking about two evenly "trained people" we are talking about your average joe schmoe on the street being robbed. Further if two people are equally skilled luck is a bigger factor then reach as a skilled fighter knows the limits of what he is facing and can adjust. A skilled knife fighter would dance at the very edge of a bats reach and let swings that look like they will connect but wont wear down the club wielder before letting a mistake or slow swing give them the ability to move in.

Just like a skilled club/mace fighter will use feints to draw a knife fighter closer. With any sort of understanding of how knife fighting works and its limitations, its easily exploited. Again, I'd chose a short sword grip and pick up something else to use as a buckler. But again, we're talking about an experienced fighter. I think that most joe schmoes are going to just surrender what is being asked of them. Unless they're idiots.

6h057 wrote: Just like a skilled club/mace fighter will use feints to draw a knife fighter closer. With any sort of understanding of how knife fighting works and its limitations, its easily exploited. Again, I'd chose a short sword grip and pick up something else to use as a buckler. But again, we're talking about an experienced fighter. I think that most joe schmoes are going to just surrender what is being asked of them. Unless they're idiots.

Refusing to surrender does not make you an idiot. There are enough examples of people killing their robbery victims even when the cooperate that its a calculated risk either way.

Truth. But most people who are untrained are going to freeze up in those positions. Fear is a hell of a response. Some people have a genetic predisposition to fight in those situations. Others do not. Look at the Warrior Gene. For those that don't have it, training is the only real way to circumvent freezing up in instances of extreme stimulus.

As to me attacking a would be mugger, it depends on what weapon he's carrying, and what his body language and disposition communicate to me. If it looks like violence is eminent, of course I'm going to stand my ground. But if I can hand off a wallet I can cancel the cards in, and a cell phone that is inoperable without my password and traceable, what do I have to lose by handing it over? I have kids. And any defensive stance I take in a hostile environment is a potential risk to them. Especially if my focus is on an attacker. Sometimes you don't get that choice though.

6h057 wrote: Just like a skilled club/mace fighter will use feints to draw a knife fighter closer. With any sort of understanding of how knife fighting works and its limitations, its easily exploited.

knife has 2 main limitations: its short range, and the body's natural response to being stabbed

a knife is capable of delivering a fatal wound with the motion of a single punch, but the human body has got inborn mechanisms for keeping us standing and fighting even when we've been stabbed

that can be overcome by hitting "the right" places but it is a limitation if youre the knife user against someone else with a weapon who can hit you while you hit them

it doesnt take much training to stab somebody, and anyway "training" means nothing in and of itself - a lot of people think they are trained when they are really just misinformed

but basically, you dont want someone who can kill you with a single punch to get close enough to punch you

and hitting a hand that doesnt want to be hit is not easy


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EDIT

ive sent you a PM, please check it out

6h057 wrote: Truth. But most people who are untrained are going to freeze up in those positions. Fear is a hell of a response. Some people have a genetic predisposition to fight in those situations. Others do not. Look at the Warrior Gene. For those that don't have it, training is the only real way to circumvent freezing up in instances of extreme stimulus.

As to me attacking a would be mugger, it depends on what weapon he's carrying, and what his body language and disposition communicate to me. If it looks like violence is eminent, of course I'm going to stand my ground. But if I can hand off a wallet I can cancel the cards in, and a cell phone that is inoperable without my password and traceable, what do I have to lose by handing it over? I have kids. And any defensive stance I take in a hostile environment is a potential risk to them. Especially if my focus is on an attacker. Sometimes you don't get that choice though.

Everything you said is 100% true. Training is needed for many if not most people to overcome the freeze response to violence. It was for me. But having been a victim of it more then once I decided to get that training. Yes if you can end a situation nonviolently you should but as you said sometimes that is not an option. Which is why I advocate allowing people as many options to decide on their OWN how best to survive the encounter as possible. For me the use of force continuum is as follows: Situational awareness, Verbal judo, empty handed skills, less lethal weapons such as OC spray, finally deadly force. However sometimes you will have no option but to jump from one to another while skipping a step. I just want people to have the choices that can get them home alive is all.

i want you to notice the technique that the victim uses at about the 27 second mark

that man is trained

see how his foot sweep was coordinated with the his arms?

thats not something you just make up, thats training

and i would say, trained in a style that actually works, and trained to make it work when he needed it

in comparison, i dont really think the guy with the knife was trained, i think he just grabbed hold and started stabbing

and how did it end?

i mean the end of the video end, not the end of their engagement


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again, im not saying that a bat (or any other particular weapon) just wont or cant work against a knife, what i am saying is just that knives are very very dangerous