Cultural Appropriation

Adder wrote: Who's to say the lady wearing a Native American-esk headress is not a reincarnated Chief!!!!! :side:

Ah yes, I was just talking with someone with suspicion that this might come up.

I highly doubt that if she were a reincarnated Native American who had earned the right to wear a war bonnet like that one that she would wear one that looks like she bought it on a Halloween store website and I doubt even further that she would have the face of a Native American tattooed on her stomach.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Adder wrote: Who's to say the lady wearing a Native American-esk headress is not a reincarnated Chief!!!!! :side:

Ah yes, I was just talking with someone with suspicion that this might come up.

I highly doubt that if she were a reincarnated Native American who had earned the right to wear a war bonnet like that one that she would wear one that looks like she bought it on a Halloween store website and I doubt even further that she would have the face of a Native American tattooed on her stomach.

If reincarnation existed, it does not seem to carry so much information over so easily accessible - else we'd all be hooking up with our previous partners etc, probably. I still don't see it as a bad thing, unless they try to misappropriate the actual heritage and identity, in fact I think its inevitable and will continue to grow as a result of population pressure and the dynamic nature of fashion in all things consumer orientated.

Adder wrote: If reincarnation existed, it does not seem to carry so much information over so easily accessible - else we'd all be hooking up with our previous partners etc, probably.

That being the case, it would put even greater responsibility on white people who have the reincarnated souls of others.

You want to show your appreciation for Native American culture? Buy authentic Native American jewelry. Many nations have distinct jewelry which they sell as a source of income (remember, poverty is rampant). You want to better the Native American people? Write letters to your representatives in Congress and tell them you want the US government to honor their treaties with the various Native American nations.

Authentic stuff usually is much better and more expensive, for good reason!! As it should be. These sort of campaign's tend to boil down to individual intent for me, so the whole approach just seems 'off'. I like to think we are all born with a clean slate, and its our speech and actions which we should be held responsible for.

Adder wrote: Authentic stuff usually is much better and more expensive, for good reason!! As it should be. These sort of campaign's tend to boil down to individual intent for me, so the whole approach just seems 'off'. I like to think we are all born with a clean slate, and its our speech and actions which we should be held responsible for.

And when our speech and actions diminish the sacred nature of a culture we are not a part of, we should be taken to task for it.

steamboat28 wrote:

Adder wrote: Authentic stuff usually is much better and more expensive, for good reason!! As it should be. These sort of campaign's tend to boil down to individual intent for me, so the whole approach just seems 'off'. I like to think we are all born with a clean slate, and its our speech and actions which we should be held responsible for.

And when our speech and actions diminish the sacred nature of a culture we are not a part of, we should be taken to task for it.

We agree, we just draw the line in different places, probably.

lol who cares what you doubt?

who are you to doubt?

what would you know about the reincarnation of a native chief into that womans body?

do you even know your own reincarnation?

who are you?

you presume to know something about someone else?

lol

thats what im talking about - your entire way of thinking is centered around the sense that whatyou think matters

lol

no one cares what you think about their reincarnated soul

mostly because its none of your business

if you have any judgements of her at all they are a result of a story you made up in your head about a picture you saw on the internet

ive made up a story about her too

but in mystory shes a human being, fundamentally equal to me and everyone else

equally allowed to err

we only ever get to really understand one person in our whole life, Jamie, and it takes a whole lifetime to do it

and even then it isnt gauranteed

one person

you get to pick who thats going to be

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the victim mind sees itself as being targeted by a hostile world - which is true

the problem is that in its understanding of this it sees itself as special - as if its the only one being targeted or as if its in some special group thats more endangered than everyone else

what you dont realize is that if you look at anyone long enough you can find a group to lump them in which is ALSO being specially targeted

life itself is actively trying to kill us all

you have no more or less chance than anyone else

you are no more or less powerful than anyone else

because you see yourself as being oppressed
your first efforts to empower yourself are in fact efforts to disempower your oppressors

but the world is never ever going to conform to your standards - its never going to see things from your perspective

its never going to agree to your terms

you arent alone in this

the world itself is equally unimpressed with me and my terms and everyone else and their terms

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i am not a group
i am an individual

i certainly can and will "abscond" from the responsibility of everyone except myself

thats the meaning of personal responsibility

no one else is responsible for any of us

and we are not responsible for anyone else

not in the sense of correcting each others behavior

not in the sense of conforming to each others demands

thats the fundamental issue for myself - and if i understand him correctly, TheDude as well

the idea that because you dont like it that it should change

what arrogance lol

so what that you think its disrespectful?

so what that you dont THINK that a reincarnated chief would do this or do that

nothing can stop you from fulfilling your own destiny if you really go for it

but nobodies destiny requires them to set the terms of the rest of the world

it doesnt matter what you change about the world - until you learn to accept things as they are - and love things as they are, youll ALWAYS be unhappy

all this demand that the world change to fit your requirements

tell it to the sun lol

steamboat28 wrote: So, the fact that white people capitalized on negro spirituals while still denying their creators access to basic human rights is considered "doing no harm"?

The fact that PEOPLE capitalized on negro spirituals while still denying their creators access to basic human rights is a bad thing. And that has nothing to do with the world today. Guilt by association. Logical form:
Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs
Is not acceptable.

The fact that the modern hipster revival of the gift-shop headdress contributes to American ignorance on Native cultures, Native history, and current Native lifestyles is "doing no harm"?

You really are angry over a hat? When you break it down, it's a hat. Why not call out Native Americans on wearing fancy Italian leather shoes from time to time? And this headdress thing is far from the norm. And I guarantee none of those people are intending to do any harm. The basics of Deontology say that at the very least their actions are ethically neutral.

The fact that neopaganism and neoshamanism are so entirely guilty of cultural appropriation that they are the world's leaders in the obfuscation and destruction of the cultures they're supposedly based on is "doing no harm"?

Neopaganism and Neoshamanism have even differentiated themselves from the original groups by name. And I see no evidence of something as powerful as a "destruction of culture".

Did you actually read my post or any of the accompanying links? Or are you just angry that I pointed a finger you didn't like the look of?

Yeah, I read your post. I responded to nearly every sentence in it.
And I am angry that you are claiming that you are generalizing a stereotyping an entire race by your posts, and don't accept your casual racism against any race. There is no exception here. You are acting, also, as if cultural appropriation, if such a thing exists on the scale you claim it to, only applies to that group of people. It's racist.
You also fail to realize that cultures change over time. You fail to realize that this has been, apparently, going on for a long time and that no culture has been erased by adopting a new style of hat or shoes.
Does a French restaurant in America diminish French culture? No. Does a traditional Ethiopian food restaurant ruin Ethiopian culture? No. What if the French restaurant is run by an Ethiopian and the Ethiopian restaurant is run by a French person? Now it's suddenly cultural appropriation and is DESTROYING both cultures? Or at least Ethiopian cultures, since the French are white?
I find your line of reasoning offensive and rude towards one race and, by proxy, all races.

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Warning: Language
In Defense of Cultural Appropriation
True Equality
Scotsman Article
It Doesn't Matter

TheDude wrote: Logical form:
Premise A is a B
Premise A is also a C
Conclusion Therefore, all Bs are Cs
Is not acceptable.

You're right. That is a logical fallacy. One I did not commit. The point I mentioned is definitely cultural appropriation because it took something another culture created, whitewashed it, divorced it from its creators, and then continued to deny those creators basic human rights for another hundred years. That is a textbook example of cultural appropriation. It continues to this day, especially musically, in the US.

You really are angry over a hat? When you break it down, it's a hat.

If you really think it's just "a hat," then you really have missed the entire point of this conversation and are actively contributing to the problem.

Neopaganism and Neoshamanism have even differentiated themselves from the original groups by name. And I see no evidence of something as powerful as a "destruction of culture".

Then you haven't looked into either of those topics closely enough to see the erasure of the original cultures at the hands of fluffy-bunny new-agers.

Also, in response to the article you linked, " You Can't 'Steal' a Culture ", saying that cultural appropriation is a compliment is about the same as if I groped your significant other and told you "Hey! I thought they were hot! It's a compliment!"

it's pointless to get mad at a whole group for the mistakes of a few individuals within...

it's unjust to punish a whole group for the mistakes of their ancestors....

i'm only second generation american on my mother's side...my great grandparents fought against the u.s. in ww1...does that make me responsible for the deaths they caused?....no...i had nothing to do with them.

i'm german/irish/cheyenne indian....am i responsible for the "white man's" treatment of native americans?...no...again i had nothing to do with that...am i responsible for the deaths caused by native americans against white men? no...i had nothing to do with that....

am i responsible for the mistakes my ancestors made on either side of my family tree? no..those mistakes were theirs and theirs alone...not the whole family's, not mine

my brother is a skin head, am i responsible for his actions against other ethnic groups? no...he is responsible for his actions, not me....

each PERSON is responsible for their actions only....you cannot blame one person or one group for the actions of another...and you cannot punish anyone for something that happened long ago in the past...people need to learn how to let go of these attachments and move forward or they'll always be in misery.