noun: religion

Andy Spalding wrote:

Not a single person has yet to refer to the doctrine, or anything contained therein when speaking to me (or that I observe in discussion), and thus I wonder the worth of said Doctrine...

I wonder the value of being able to quote scripture. A gifted person can quote it to justify almost any action.

As can any judgmental idiot with an agenda and a picket line.

On Teaching
~Kahlil Gibran

No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of your knowledge.

The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness.

If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.

The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding.

The musician may sing to you of the rhythm which is in all space, but he cannot give you the ear which arrests the rhythm nor the voice that echoes it.

And he who is versed in the science of numbers can tell of the regions of weight and measure, but he cannot conduct you thither.

For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man.

And even as each one of you stands alone in [The Force's] knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of [The Force] and in his understanding of the earth.

MD, you keep saying we never refer to the doctrine...

We have regular services and sermons in chat and in the sermons section where we refer to it all the time. You're welcome to attend one sometime.

In our chat services, we recite the creed regularly.

We also refer to it among many other mediums as well.


Also, keep in mind, Jediism isn't a religion like Christianity or some other theistic or clear cut religion, and therefore the approach to these kinds of things will be different. Our doctrine isn't that which is to be "preached" around like bible scriptures, and the reasoning behind that has been elaborated by those who've already replied here. We don't aim to verbalize it all over the place, and furthermore, what we act out of the doctrine is that which is not as direct and simple as someone from a mainstream religion might expect. We have people who act the doctrine and people who don't. The line between them is fuzzy at best because of its nature and the way it is perceived. Out of those who do act it, one cannot expect perfection in embodying it, just as one cannot possibly define a perfect christian or a perfect anything else. Questions that attempt to prompt any idea of any followers of a faith to follow it even nearly perfectly are thus flawed in itself.

Stick around and hopefully you'll catch on to some of these things we're explaining here, not just theoretically as you read here, but actually to be a part of it.

I think that the confusion comes when we are compared to many of the high profile religions. Unlike most other religions, our doctrine is a guideline, not a set of rules that if you don’t kowtow to you will burn in eternal damnation. We are not forced to be identical to everyone else. We have a basic set of guidelines which form the core of what we believe, and many have found their expression of that root by seeing it in other places. If we found something someone said to be out of line with our core philosophy we would argue it.

There is unity in all things. Harmony doesn’t come from conformity but acceptance. The harmony is here and the unity comes from our diversification. I will not condemn those for being different, nor will I recite our doctrine at people all day… we are each individual and I respect what makes you, you.

Does that help any?

we are each individual and I respect what makes you, you.

Unless its out of line with the "core philosophy" anyway.

The only thing ive really seen as a core anything is that you all seem to think your Jedi, but what makes a Jedi seems to be whatever someone wants it to mean...

Andy Spalding wrote:

Not a single person has yet to refer to the doctrine, or anything contained therein when speaking to me (or that I observe in discussion), and thus I wonder the worth of said Doctrine...

I wonder the value of being able to quote scripture. A gifted person can quote it to justify almost any action.

I couldnt decide between a "Good Will Hunting" clip, about him being a smart kid, and being able to recite every book he ever read to... ya know what... Lets run that clip...




And quote me the doctrine, but you have never lived it like I have, faced my temptations, lived my troubles...

Ok, seriously....

SO, because we dont throw the doctrine out, like a Christian throws out the bible (no offense to any christians, I am referring to the 'thumpers'), so, becasue we do not, we dont live it?

Come walk a mile in my shoes, Andy's shoes, Wescli, Brenna, Desolous, Br. John... Any of us...

I would no sooner point to a line in the doctrine, and tell you that 'it is the truth', than tell you that 'Folger's is the best coffee'... I mean, it is, but that is for another thread, lol... So ignore the Taster's Choice reference in the "Good Will Hunting"...:woohoo:

Brenna wrote: convinced that the doctrine is not adhered to or valued, which I assure you is not the truth, though perhaps none of us are eloquent enough to make our relationship to the doctrine clear when discussing it. You have already discovered that we are quite open and individualistic in our interpretations, so perhaps the question you need to be asking each of us is "how do you interpret and live the doctrine". I imagine that you would find many common underlying values in each of our answers that might well reflect a common set of beliefs... like the doctrine maybe ;P

And this reason is, not one of us would tell another how to live the doctrine... Or how to live anything, or in any way...

Because it is open to interpretation as to how to live it...

Khaos wrote:

we are each individual and I respect what makes you, you.

Unless its out of line with the "core philosophy" anyway.

The only thing ive really seen as a core anything is that you all seem to think your Jedi, but what makes a Jedi seems to be whatever someone wants it to mean...

Right... :lol:

And you seem to think we are not...

I think that is not for you to decide...

As are just internet names to you, so are you to us...

Khaos wrote:

we are each individual and I respect what makes you, you.

Unless its out of line with the "core philosophy" anyway.

The only thing ive really seen as a core anything is that you all seem to think your Jedi, but what makes a Jedi seems to be whatever someone wants it to mean...

Quite often the things you post are out of sync with how I understand the meaning of the core philosophy and yet I have never been rude to you or attack your belief… and you’re complaining about this?

I said that we would argue it, not try and convince you that you are wrong…. Which is a greater courtesy than most people would ever dream of conveying to others as they run about spewing whatever they feel is their truth with little regard to others.

I feel that far too often our compassion is mistaken for weakness, and I pity those with such short sightedness.

(Johnson, my video clips were a reach for humor, if it appears to you I am being an ass, I apologize... Many will attest I am just trying to be funny... Sometimes, I succeed, others, not so much... I just felt this needed said, as a quick reread kinda makes me look like a jerk... :dry: )

Jestor wrote: (Johnson, my video clips were a reach for humor, if it appears to you I am being an ass, I apologize... Many will attest I am just trying to be funny... Sometimes, I succeed, others, not so much... I just felt this needed said, as a quick reread kinda makes me look like a jerk... :dry: )

You're fine. I read and pick up humor well. :evil:

Now...since there has been a few different things pointed out while I slept, let me try to address them; or rather respond and clarify my original position.

Andy Spalding wrote: So show us a better way. Be the change you want to see.

Fair enough - although I won't ever say that any one way or the other has a monopoly on any given truth (that would be too narrow sighted).

Brenna wrote: What is the exact definition of God? If the basic doctrine of Christianity is the 10 commandments, why bother with the rest of the bible?

First...I would love to discuss the exact definition of God - lets take that to another thread! Second. the basic doctrine of Christianity is most assuredly not the ten commandments. While those are important, that is a part of the old scripture, and since then there has been a new covenant - this new covenant is what makes Christianity worthwhile. Again, lets discuss if that needs clarified (perhaps in a dif thread!)

Brenna wrote: I am curious, if you have found your truth, why do you not simply follow that. Is truth, after all, not enough?

I think (hope) I answered that above...was that not clear? (sorry if not)

Andy Spalding wrote: I wonder the value of being able to quote scripture. A gifted person can quote it to justify almost any action.

Most surely! Quoting scripture has little to do with the values that lie therein. Any one can memorize and recite any number of formulas, phrases or quotes on a whim for the given situation, but that does not make them any more pious than another. My point was that no-one has referred to said doctrine as a guiding principle...and quite a few have outright stated that it's worthless. Conversely, while I may not quote scripture to anyone I have no problem recalling aspects (such as parables, or teachings, or examples to illustrate) of scripture that support the question/task/discussion at hand. Meaning, if somebody comes to me for advice, or thoughts on something...I can refer to my doctrine (based on christian tradition and scripture) and provide an answer (hopefully a good one...no guarantees) that is then based in and referred to said doctrine. I do not, enter said conversation from the prospective of thinking the doctrine is false or that I need not apply and follow it. Nobody needs to quote the TotJO doctrine to me - I can read it for myself for sure...but when I hear that: "it's basically worthless," "I don't follow that at all," "it's b.s.," "I can't remember what I wrote in there," etc...that is what is disturbing to me.

Proteus wrote: Our doctrine isn't that which is to be "preached" around like bible scriptures, and the reasoning behind that has been elaborated by those who've already replied here.

Tracking! I'm not asking it to be preached (although I wouldn't object to that); instead, what I'm searching for is what I just stated above...

Proteus wrote: Questions that attempt to prompt any idea of any followers of a faith to follow it even nearly perfectly are thus flawed in itself.

I disagree. While you will never fine a perfect follower of any religion...a person should be able to look within said religions and find those seeking perfection of said religion. As an example; Christians (the good ones) should always be in a constant state of seeking to become Christ-like - if they are not, then they are missing the point of Christianity. Like-wise...a Jedi should be constantly seeking to become...a Jedi. The issue I have (and I see perhaps this is not always the case as attested to by a few now) is that there seems to be little adherence to what a Jedi is - meaning it is self defined and actualized. In such a system, perfection (as in the pursuit thereof) is self defined and thus has little meaning in the community of other Jedi - leaving one to question if such a community needs to exist, etc. I'm following what you are saying...I'm not seeing it in practice (not that it doesn't exist...i'm just searching for it to show itself)...

Wescli Wardest wrote: There is unity in all things. Harmony doesn’t come from conformity but acceptance.

First, there isn't unity in all things. If there was, the Protestants would get along with the Catholics now wouldn't they. :whistle:

Second. I agree about conformity/acceptance. I'm not asking for conformity...I am asking for acceptance. The issue (as stated a few times now) is that I don't find acceptance of the doctrine...I find rejection of the doctrine. See?

Wescli Wardest wrote: I will not condemn those for being different, nor will I recite our doctrine at people all day… we are each individual and I respect what makes you, you.

I wouldn't condemn any either (even though it might sound like it - I just speak plainly is all :blush: ), but I would expect those that claim to follow a religion to also follow its foundational doctrine (even if they don't recite it all day) versus rejecting it.

Khaos wrote: The only thing ive really seen as a core anything is that you all seem to think your Jedi, but what makes a Jedi seems to be whatever someone wants it to mean...

to which Jestor said...

Jestor wrote: Right... :lol:

And you seem to think we are not...

I think that is not for you to decide...

As are just internet names to you, so are you to us...

Who then decides it? The individual? If so, then what use is the doctrine (since any can choose to follow or not to follow)? If not the individual and instead the TotJO defines what it means to be a Jedi to its members, based on the doctrine, etc...then I simply have to search harder (it appears) to find those that actually subscribe to it versus outright rejecting it. Yes/No?

Sorry...that is a lot for a Wed morning.

Blessings