noun: religion

The term "force" in and of itself is nebulous and open to interpretation, why should the practice of those that follow it also not be such?

Ah...but therein lies the problem Proteus.

I get it perfectly.

The issue here is that the basis of monomythology is in and of itself a mythology from which to base (in this case, itself). That said, there has to be a doctrine to define those particulars - IF one wants to call it a religion that is.

Therefor, you have to have a doctrine...a set of ideals that clearly define such aspects of the religion. Without those, you simply have a set of individual beliefs - and if that is what this is, then its really an individual religion and not a 'collective religion', and if so, then anyone could register them self as a religious entity w/ the government and get tax breaks!

Also...there IS a Doctrine on the TotJO site - thus it appears to have a definition of what the religion [here] is.

Andy...you cannot on one hand define something as essentially nothing [nebulous and open to interpretation], and then on the other hand refer to it as something [it]. :blink:

What is "it"?

Nebulous and open to interpretation?

Okay...well, then what is "it"?

See the circular logic?

JohnsonMD wrote: Andy...you cannot on one hand define something as essentially nothing [nebulous and open to interpretation], and then on the other hand refer to it as something [it]. :blink:

What is "it"?

Nebulous and open to interpretation?

Okay...well, then what is "it"?

See the circular logic?

Isn't it interesting though... an ideal that reflects the known reality... a world with "things" that are essentially made out of nothing...

What can we know about the force? Something that is beyond our comprehension. All religion is metaphor for something that is beyond words.

Vagueary is, IMHO, a more true description of "it" than trying to nail down what is beyond corporal experience.

JohnsonMD wrote: Ah yes Proteus..."nothing."

Well played.

However, if that is the case, then that would invalidate your apprenticeship, or in the least make it arbitrary. :evil:

Tao Te Ching 2 :

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad. Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other. Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.

***

Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honour
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.


Buddha

It could not be either invalid nor arbitrary, as I have nothing to teach ... My apprentice's garden is already well cultivated. I'm just showing him how to prune it well.

The “secret ingredient” isn’t that there is NO secret ingredient. The secret is that there was no special ingredient added by the one making the noodle soup. The special ingredient was that people believed there was a secret ingredient. “Belief” is the secret. Belief is what makes it special. Belief isn’t something that you prove or pick over, it is something that is found in the heart, something that is intangible to the eye but just as real to the soul.

The reason so many reference different philosophies is because they found that connection in those teachings. Not because the teaching itself is the answer. The IP is to help you find this. Go on your own journey and discover your own truth. But so many people try and find the “right” answer or write what they think we want to read. They look outward for validation when they should find their own validation by discovering what is inward.

I can NOT give you your answer… you have to discover that for yourself.

Most assuredly Wescli! However, I have found my truth, there is no reason to discover it - nor is that my question.

My question is: The TotJO states that its a religion, and that it has a doctrine (as supported by the site, and the page(s) dedicated to such)...yet I find very few people actually using said doctrine as a basis for their...Jedi-ness.

Instead, I find people doing, expressing, feeling, being whatever they want (not that I am saying those things are bad mind you) and calling themselves Jedi. That said, the confusion is that on one hand there is the Doctrine...and on the other there what people seem to make up "for their own truth." Sometimes this is compatible, sometimes it is not - regardless, if that is the case, it can't really be called a religion (as defined in my OP).

Does that make sense?

Is Unitarian Universalism a religion?

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/

"Welcome to Unitarian Universalism, a religion that celebrates diversity of belief and is guided by seven principles."


http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml

"There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

- The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
- Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
- Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
- A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
- The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
- The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
- Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part."


http://www.uua.org/beliefs/welcome/index.shtml

"Unitarian Universalism welcomes people with diverse beliefs. There is a rich dialogue in our congregations about many spiritual topics."

Among other things they list:

Atheism/ Agnosticism
Buddhism
Christianity
Humanism
Judaism
Paganism
Other

In essence, these three quotes all say relatively the same thing, in one way or another. They all warn against the undue devotion which we give teachings and teachers. When we search for what the experience of Life is for ourselves, we often look for someone to show us, to tell us what to do to find it, achieve it or to tell us the truth. Yet, as we have seen in the two previous essays, “Truth” is quite hard to tell. Whereas one can inspire something about some way in which one might observe, some possibilities about how one may proceed or even that which one may hope to avoid, one cannot truly discover oneself, or meet oneself by following the path laid out by another. No teacher or teaching can ever answer the question : “who are you ?”

Where there is a way or a path, it's someone else's way. Each knight enters the forest at the most mysterious point and follows his own intuition. What each brings forth is what never before was on land or sea; the fulfilment of his unique potentialities, which are different from anybody else's.

- Joseph Campbell

If one embarks upon a path that someone else has already traced, there is very little discovery ; the experience is not personal. The more detailed the information that those who have gone before leaves to those who follow, one only repeats the what one has been able to say about previous experiences, which give rise to expectations and even preconceived destinations (outcomes). When one starts down a previously paved route, all those cobbles are the experiences and perceptions of others. Those cobbles are the doctrines, the rituals, the observances and the customs of spiritual, martial and cultural ways, and they are placed at particular locations so that the initiate knows more or less where s/he is in relation to where the destination is said to be … One can then make measurements and comparisons of progress. Measurements and comparisons are illusory ; they can only be models, not 'Truth'.

The quest cannot begin until the call to adventure is answered. There is no clear “you are here” point from which to begin, especially in cases where the call is refused, for whatever reason ; the call will be repeated, or at least echoed, so the entrance to the path is effectively no fixed place. As the maxim goes, “it’s not the destination, it’s the journey”, with self-actualisation (self-knowledge) being acquired along the way, only the initiate, developing his/her own sensibilities through experience determines the resolution of the quest and what is brought back to the World via this individual immersion. Mentors and partners may help, but only the knight may complete the quest.

In brief, one must discover one's Truth within ...


Believe nothing on the faith of traditions,
even though they have been held in honour
for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined,
persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested
and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.


Buddha

This is very similar to what Watts told us about the Zen masters denying having anything to teach. The trials they put to pupils were often impossible to surmount or solve, for they had to come to the conclusion that controlling the mind or extinguishing desire is a futile enterprise. It doesn’t help to tell people out-right because it is difficult to believe ; it is much more palpable to consider that enlightenment comes at the end of a long and arduous, perhaps an expensive even, ‘path’ directed by a guru who would tell and show the right way. None of that is indispensable. For that, there is the way for ‘smart people’ and the long, hard way for ‘stupid people’. These latter compare, make some sort of determination about what way is the right way to enlightenment and reject the rest. They may change schools, teachers, disciplines until they abandon it or come to understand that their 'path' is one they must themselves discover.

In brief, one must discover one's Truth within ...


« Range le livre, la description, la tradition, l'autorité, et prend la route pour découvrir toi-même. »

Jiddu Krishnamurti

Dans cette citation de Krishnamurti, on trouve le même conseil que dans les deux précédentes. Il nous avise de ne mettre pas tant d'importance sur l'enseignement d'un maître, qui que ce soit, que nous négligerions la connaissance de soi-même. Ainsi, ne découvre-t-on que la représentation de quelqu'un d'autre. C'est une recherche vaine et sans fruit lorsqu'on tente de suivre une quelconque tradition pour se rencontrer. Ce serait comme demander à quelqu'un que nous connaissons à peine de nous amener à la maison sans qu'il sache où nous habitons. Il pourrait nous amener quelque part, mais non chez nous. On peut montrer quelques indices, donner quelques conseils ou même des avertissements, mais on ne peut nullement se connaître à la place d'un autre, tout comme personne ne peut déjeuner, dormir ou pisser à la place de quelqu'un. Se connaître soi-même est une piste que l'on ne peut découvrir que seul, malgré la qualité de l'enseignement, de la tradition ou du dogme.

En somme, on se doit de découvrir sa Vérité dedans ...

Tao Te Ching 20 :

Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous! Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile. Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty. Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind. I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.