why predominantly philosophy?

Kohadre wrote:

Alexandre Orion wrote: What's bush-craft ? :huh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushcraft

It's similar to what boy scouts goes over if you are familiar with that group

Only as seen by Jean-Daniel Cadinot ...

(I did NOT just say that !) :blush:


:laugh:

There is a particular point behind the philosophy we teach here at TOTJO, and its something that many who go through the IP, and even go through an apprenticeship don't quite get...

Out in other establishments where other things are taught, those things are taught in a certain way, and they are learned in a certain way (based on the individual)... and the way in which one is able to learn it, determines if and how that person comes to understand it well. What determines how somebody approaches learning something, is their personal perception of things... of not only the subject at hand, but the environment in which the subject at hand exists, along with their state of mind that perceives that environment and subject being learned.

What we are teaching here at the temple, is not one of those tangible subjects (in which you can learn anywhere at anytime... think about it...).... what we are teaching here is an exploration of one's perception of the self and their environment, of their state of mind and body... things which are absolutely fundamental for being able to learn those things out there in those other establishments if and when needed. They are teaching how to drive, while we are teaching how to manage the engine. This is the designated role of TOTJO.

The philosophy material here is broad for this reason, as well as for the reason that Alex mentioned - we're not trying to teach every animal to climb a tree but to figure out what kind of animal one even is first.

Additionally, as nice as it sounds on paper for something like TOTJO, to be a bit more of a jack-of-many-trades teaching organization, trust me when I say... it only sounds good on paper.... lol

I and a few others have been vocal in the past about the kinds of things a jedi should know.

I see the internet as a tool for communication and archival with most of a jedi's training and community contribution being done offline. I have been seeing a recent shift toward this in the last few years, which is good. Things like physical fitness accountability, CPR certification requirements etc...

But as it is, not everyone is ready for that, or even care. So people will get there when they get there.

An observation, do with it what you will.

Desolous - I've been in OCS; I've worked in the financial industry for 13 years; I've served in another country (in uniform)...I can relate to your prospective.

That said. What you seek, cannot be found here.

In my short time here I have observed the following:
- The main 'theme' is that TotJO is a religion, yet very few here would point you to the doctrine of said religion as a point of reference, and others would totally disavow the doctrine all together.
- Few would even state that it is actually a religion and more of a philosophy, some not even that.
- The m.o. seems to be do what you will/want and call it 'jedi' since all we welcome and everything goes. Thus not everyone is on the same page...

I would challenge that this is more certainly not a religion, and more a collection of like-minded individuals that want to do their own thing under an umbrella of 'jedi'.

I suppose that sounds harsh, but its not meant to...it is meant to challenge what seems to be the status quo, and actually push for a standardization of the doctrine across the board so that it could be called a religion - but that is a discussion for another place.

In short....the open philosophy is actually restraining...

ps - thank you for your service Desolous...pm me if you like...I have a few thoughts for you.

many of the greatest generals in history were students of philosophy and history....all science and no philosophy leaves one cold and distant...

knowing HOW to conduct war is villainous without knowing WHY to conduct it...

having said that, I do agree that it wouldn't hurt to teach, or at least have resources available for strategy/survival
l/etc....being ex navy I am rather adept at aquatic survival...making floatation devices out of t shirts and what not....and I'm fairly certain our current/ former military members would be effective in teaching their branches tradecraft....

Desolous wrote: next, from Jestor (my own answers in bold again) - 'I would love to see a little thing on controlling spending, or how to manage money... No one ever taught me, and I am a mess financially... I am getting better, but, Im not there yet...' then why dont we? i think between myself and rickie the grey, we could easily tackle this extremely necessary life skill in an informal basis.

Yes,and since I posted my issues with finances, I have recieved a PM...

The biggest factors, are you are not yet knights...

We have a very broad definition of knight... Of things a knight should KNOW, but well rounded, I think we would all agree on...

I still read on survival techniques... Still watch discovery shows on life on our planet...

Money, and world (uh) situations are probably my weakest points...

But, I am ok with that, lol...

I know some, but I have never concentrated on that...

guys, i never said that i could not learn philosophy, as seems to be the implication here. i think a journal with 236 posts and over 30 thousand views testifies to that. i said that it is not my best subject,

No, no, of course not... lol...

You took a position, and we responded...

No harm,no foul...

and that perhaps having other subjects as well would maybe help hold the interest of myself and others moreso than the next philosophy lesson after the next. im a bit ADHD like that, and i bet a lot of you are too.

The intellectual side only is why, I think, we loose so many people... They can only get part of what they need here (at TOTJO)...

Money... This is an issue.. lol...

How do I ask a apprentice, who is living paycheck to paycheck to take a CPR course?

Possibly Andy could teach us all, if we were centrally located, (yada-yada credentials), or I (or another) could give martial arts classes...

We are restricted, at the moment...

This isnt a 'poo-poo' on this idea, I love the idea...

And I agree Desolous:

so there is a lot of meat in this thread. i hope that it serves as an idea generator if nothing else.

JohnsonMD wrote: I would challenge that this is more certainly not a religion, and more a collection of like-minded individuals that want to do their own thing under an umbrella of 'jedi'.

Agreed... But, as a religion is defined as:

re·li·gion
riˈlijən
noun
noun: religion
1.the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
-a particular system of faith and worship.
"the world's great religions"
-a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"

synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
plural noun: religions

As the definition of exactly what a religion is is still up in the air, I prefer the one in the bold...

So, even if I dont refer you to the doctrine, I might happen to believe it... It there for you to find, and discover for yourself...I am not here to convince anyone it is right for them...

However, should you wish to have a discussion on a particular topic, I am all ears, er, fingers, lol...

I think some of you are STILL missing my point, so I. Will lay. It out again. I am not call inf for an an end of the IP or apprentice training as it stands. Or even for wholesale changes. Just some changes would be nice. I persoanlly cannot read philosophy all the time.

Here's an example. In mmy favorite book 'starship troopers by robert heinlein, (and don't laugh, the book is awesome and the movie sucks), the main character sgt johnny rico bucks for ocs and gets shipped out and is surprised to find a class called history and moral philosophy, just like he had in high school. Only this was was not pass fail. It was an exact science, with a numerical grade, and if one of the young gentlemen faile dthe class per the rating of his instructor, he sat a board of inquest questioning not only should he be kicked out of OCS altogether, but whether he should remain in the mobile infantry at all. 'Why do we fight? We fight because we are mobile infantry. But classes like H&MP give us the reasons and the rationale'.

I know that philosophy is imortant. I get that. I never said otherwise. I asked does it have to be every...single...lesson. for those of you who enjoy that, more powwer to you. But as has been mentioned, we are all different people, different learning stles, different interests. And some of us don't want to read or listen to philosophy all the time.

My "Thank You" is directly in regards to the fact that Starship Troopers is awesome, and the movie completely butchered Heinlein's message.

What else is there (in this context) Desolous??

If a person wants to learn about chemistry, they most certainly would not go to a law school. Likewise, if they wanted to learn law, they most certainly would not go to a medical school. Likewise, if a person wants to learn or ponder the great mysteries of faith, religion, and such things...they would not seek advice from a CPA....

You have skills in areas outside of the totjo, you wish to utilize those...but you must realize that the totjo should not embrace everything...it's not all encompassing. That said, if you have interests, there are surely plenty of people that have other and the same...no reason that collaboration cannot exist. (and I do NOT speak for anyone but myself on those points).

I wouldn't ask my platoon leader to help me fix my car...but I might seek his mentorship on what the NSN for the parts I need are...

I feel that my favourite Heinlein was "A Door into Summer" (1951).