"God Hates Gays"

at the end of the day i bet there are straight people out there that get up to some freaky things that would make a gay person blush :S

i personally don't care what people do behind closed doors, i only care about their interactions with people outside of the bedroom...

My apology to Master Jestor on my assumption earlier. This topic is very troubling for me. My tolerance with trying to understand "their" belief is very tired. I would like to be the bigger person and just let them carry on, but my anger is strong, and my patience weak. I rant to get it out, read it then delete it, not to offend the true followers of "god". I seem to fight evil with evil,to hurt them as they do me. A trait very unbecoming of a Jedi. My apologies to the members on this thread.


daystar

'Oi, Lock! What'chya reading, nya?' Kakeru asked as James scanned the discussion. Jack let him and didn't stop Kakeru or Akitaro crowding in, either -- she was too tired.

'It might be a bit self-serving of me to say this, but it's kinda nice to see a long discussion on religion and homosexuality, and absolutely NO comments along the lines of 'OMFG, ur goig 2 hell, u f@g ur so stupid fk u k?' I mean -- not ONE.' James answered, scrolling down the page.

'It's the website for the Jedi Order, Rock-baka-chan!' Akitaro smacked James upside the head, 'If anyone used that kind of language or atrocious grammar, the mods would kick them off.'

'But there's not even well-written and politely phrased nastiness on this board. I'm just noticing that it's kinda nice to have such a hotly debated topic in a discussion thread, and not a single hateful comment TOWARDS gay people.'

"I know -- it's like there's finally a place where you and Akitaro can get it on and not have to put up with harassment." Jack muttered, voice heavy with both sleep and sarcasm, "Oh, wait... except for your jobs, homes, and pretty much everywhere in your story..."

James gave Jack a nasty look.

'Just saying it's really telling of the Order as a whole if everybody here just jumps on with the 'What are these people so hateful about?' wagon, without even a second thought.' James paused, 'Wonder if any of them have done anything for the It Gets Better project.'

Jack shrugged, eyes still closed.

"Wouldn't surprise me. And if everyone here immediately jumps to the defense of acceptance and human rights, I'd bet they'd do something to take a stand." She answered.

James straightened.

'Gotta admit, it does do a good bit to restore my faith in humanity.' He shot Akitaro a look, 'Y'know, after the obvious.' Uncharacteristically, Akitaro didn't snap back, but just turned an interesting shade of pink.

I look at the WBC and see very little to do with actual "practical" homophobia, and a quite a lot to do with a desperate, infantile desire for attention at any cost.

A few points on Christianity and homophobia in general: Many historians and scholars assert that Gnostics (whom some now view as the true "Early Christians") often regarded the "God" of the Old Testament as a false and evil deity bent on the enslavement and psychological torture of humanity (and some also rejected Paul of Tarsus). The Nicene Creed is where Judaic scripture was adopted into the canon of Christian liturgy and subsequently most Gnostic sects (some of whom, such as the Simonians, also viewed all love and human intimacy as perfect love) were declared heretical and exterminated. Later revisions of scripture are thought to have edited out even more of the Gnostic elements in favor of the Judaic view. My reason for bringing this up is to say that the idea that Christianty equals Homophobia does not hold up based on current understanding of Christian history.

Also it has been posited that modern homophobia in the west is not the product of religion at all, but rather the legacy of early psychiatric beliefs and practices which prevailed for much of twentieth century (remember that homosexuality was considered a mental illness for which one could be institutionalized and endure all manner of "iatrogenic" tortures right up until the early seventies)

Another thing to keep in mind is that hostility often arises out of fear. Those who react with animosity towards homosexuality are often acting out of fear of something - variously including a fear of anything that doesn't adhere to a simplified conception of human reality, a fear of "anarchy" as they percieve it, or (I suspect quite often) a fear or jealousy of "uncontrollable" and mysterious passions within others or even within themselves.

It is for these reasons that I personally don't feel especially threatened by those modern Christians who embrace such hatred. To me, they represent a part of the world that is burning itself away. They may have some limited influence over the possibilities that homosexuals have in life, but ultimately, hatred has many faces and misappropriated religion is only one of them. The minute I turn off the TV or turn away from other media, ther is no such unpleasantness pouring into my world. Having accepted that this culture is a hostile thing in general and that that's something that I cannot change, I feel relatively at peace with it in that regard.

Besides that, if you think being Gay is scary, try telling a room full of people you're a jedi and see what kind of reactions you get

Daystar, please understand that not all of "us" want to try to change you or convert you. I am a Christian and I do not think less of those who don't believe in God. We all have our own beliefs, and I am very much fine with that. I am a private person (generally) with my beliefs, so I don't go about trying to preach, or "convert 'nonbelievers'". And note not all of us are like the WBC, actually very few of us are, most christians distance themselves from those people due to their extreme beliefs. They are the sort that give us a bad rep.

I am very torn about this group when it comes to my opinion.

As a Jedi, i do not wish them ill or judge them. While i do not agree with their messages, their methods are peaceful enough that i pay them no mind.

As a Marine....i want to run them over with my car and blow up their church for the serious disrespect they show us.

And so the battle rages. But until the Marine in me outweighs the Jedi and christian in me I will let them be.

Cynthia,

I think daystar's "these people" comment was aimed at the WBC....

Not believers of God.....

Funny how God's opinion is so often the same as one's own...

This is what I was talking about with the 'Will of The Force' post.

It is easy to justify your beliefs if you call them the result of someone or something else.

in the words of Ron White....homophobia is a wasted emotion....what 2 people do within the privacy of their home is their own business...who is anyone to tell others what they can or can't feel for someone. ..morality is subject to both region and individuals...personally it should only be subject to an individual and not region because you then have people telling others what they can or can't do...there are many rules and regulations within society that i do not agree with, yet am forced to abide by because they have the backing of the law....and for any that have never been incarcerated it sux...i mean really sux...most modern societies are governed by the "moral majority" which in the u.s. is a bit of a contradiction to the constitution since it provides for separation of church and state...as long as religion (christianity in most cases) is tightly woven with politics everyone will have to "tow the line" so to speak... it's unfortunate...

"Ha ha."

'What's so funny, Miss Author?' James asked Jack, whom was going through pages on old American Revolution texts.

"What's funny is that there are people who consistently insist that America was founded on the Bible, but they either don't know or don't listen to the words of our own founding fathers." Jack said, bringing up the two pages she had in mind, "These are quotes from letters -- and I'm NOT making this up -- letters from Thomas Jefferson. Thomas. FRICKIN'! Jefferson! To Horatio Spafford and Dr. Thomas Cooper, respectively: "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." And his letter to Dr. Cooper is basically a long rant about how England had the church and state so closely intertwined that it only caused them problems. He would NEVER have agreed to that -- that's why the original writers of the Constitution made a specific amendment of the separation of the church and state."

James blinked.

"So, all in all, it's pretty ridiculous to find people who claim that we need to base our laws on stuff from the Bible when that was the polar opposite intent of the founding fathers of America, itself."

'Huh. I didn't know that.'

Thanks Jestor, Thats cool then.

I'm sure it's been said already... God doesn't hate. It's that simple.

God (Id these was a god) made homosexuality to balance out the population of a species, that's why Humans have it, and animals have it. Atleast that's what i think

Solar Centurion wrote: I'm sure it's been said already... God doesn't hate. It's that simple.

According to mythology, god drowned nearly everyone at some point. Claiming the deity as depicted in this mythology doesn't hate makes Hitler, Himler and friends look like pot-smoking hippies.

Now, i'm no crazy preacher, but when I was still Christian, I was taught to believe that god makes no mistakes, and that he is omniscient. If that's the case, then I can't help but think that he would know who is and isn't gay well before they're born. Operating under that assumption, how could any "father" (as I find he is currently refered to as) create certain people, knowing that he would hate them? That doesn't seem loving, forgiving, or fatherly. Quite the opposite, it seems sadistic and unfair. If this is the case, then I would think there is either no god, or that the notion "god hates fags" is a fallacy.

Well like all creators, a creator deity can make something, then later on regretting it, or it doesn't go according to plan, or simply said creator gets bored. It happens to me all the time. When I used to play Civ4, i'd wipe out the planet with my WMDs and see if people can survive in a radioactive desert with nearly no natural resources. Obviously deities like deluges better, they're all over the place in mythology. Although WMDs will probably be next.

Also it is probable that a creator deity created for the purpose of entertainment, and simply loves to hate. No good movies/series/books without baddies, considering the same myth also states that man was created in the deity's image, it's safe to assume both have the same taste in entertainment.

Also I don't see anything wrong with hating what you created. Example: you create a kid, turns out your kid becomes the new Himmler. What do you do next? send birthday presents or finish the job yourself?

I had a conversation with my Methodist preacher uncle once and it went something along these lines:

Me: So you believe that God has a plan and that He created everything according to this plan?
Him: Yes, and God is in everything.
Me: And you also believe that God made man in his own image?
Him: Yes.
Me: And that God is ever-loving and full of grace?
Him: Yes.
Me: So why do you hate the fact that I'm gay?
{a few moments of silence]
Him: Ah, well, I love you but not your sin.

At that point I walked away, otherwise I would have got into a heated discussion about the nature of Original Sin, the lack of reference to Satan (the cause of such things as homosexuality, in my uncle's eyes) in the Old Testament, etc.

My point? To illustrate that it's not God that hates, but Man. Which makes the term "humanity" all the more ironic sometimes....
Whatever term you use to describe your deity/deities/etc, any such notions of who or what to love or hate most probably came from the people that wrote the texts or defined the practices of that faith. The Force embraces life as another vital part of the whole scheme of things. If being gay wasn't natural, why do we keep cropping up in our millions? It might not be part of a faith's ideal plan, but you can't deny our existence and anything that exists is a vital part of the Universe/Force.

The funny thing is that everything that occurs in this universe (and comes from that universe) is natural. Viruses, homos, radiation, etc.

The only argument for homosexuality not being natural is that it isn't the result of evolution (for obvious reasons)... But then again the religious gay-hating type aren't usually too fond of evolution... Just another case of selective brain function I guess.

I actually agree with you 100% there, Ren.

One of the problems I constantly deal with as a Christian is trying to get beyond the messes and atrocities created by others who claim to be Christian. They constantly thump the Bible and use it to condem others. And when I try to remind them about what it says about judging people, they get very cross with me.

and there in lies the confusion,

in biblical history according to the old testement god was angry and vengeful...mass floods, plagues, etc....

then comes the new testement with a kind and loving god...

as a child i went to many churches, some would preach only from the old testement...which seemed rather grim to me.
other churches preached only from the new testement...but they only paid it lip service...

preach one thing and do the opposite...

then occasionally i'd find a church that preached from both testements, or course they would pick and choose the parts they preached and followed....preach acceptance and tolerance of all, yet condemn the gay....

i watch the history channel and discovery alot...they found evidence proving the bible itself was compiled by a single priest sorting through a pile of gospels, he picked and chose which gospels were to be used and which weren't. over time the bible has been re-worked several times to meet approval of various monarchs or groups...such is the case with anything manmade. this is one of the other things that cause confusion in christiandom.

there is plenty of well documented evidence proving much of what is written in the bible is true. then there are plenty of things in the bible that require a leap of faith, such is the case with any religion...

a person's religion, gender, orientation, etc. makes no difference to me, what matters most is the person themself...and i feel that any diety,supreme being, or whatever would feel the same or at least should feel the same...

but that's just my take on things