Sharing a locker room with a transgender

OB1Shinobi wrote: if you have boy parts

I'm going to say this once more and I'll say it as plainly as I possibly can.

There is no such thing as boy "parts" or girl "parts"
There is a vagina, a penis with testes, and many variations in between.

To call the penis and testes, "boy parts" is about as absurd as calling red hair better than brown hair. You're assuming personal preference and experience for fact.

Now, for the love of Yoda and all his ear hairs, please stop referring to genitals as things having a gender. They do not.

jamie, i respect you
i respect your dignity as a human being and i care about your well being as a person

i expect that it is not pleasant to accept this right now so i wont push it any further than this moment but i want to express that i am not talking about anything being better than anything else

its not a issue of red hair being better than blond hair

its an issue of red heads have red hair and blonds have blondn hair

neither one is better
and they can be changdd

but it is having red hair that makes one a red head and it is having blond hair that makes one a blond

Jamie Stick wrote:

RyuJin wrote: change can't be forced, if it is it creates resentment, which can create greater problems...it must be developed over time.

Except that this cannot wait since trans people are being killed. The genocide must end, a line must be drawn in the sand.

It is nothing like the legalization of marijuana because marijuana is a luxury; human dignity is right. Every transgender person deserves to use the toilet or locker room unassaulted, unquestioned, and unobstructed."

Depends, myself being a man has absolutely no business in the girls room, period (unless i am the janitor, which i am not). You do not have the right to walk into the ladies room and help yourself, no offense, but you are seriously mistaken. Why? Because you are uncomfortable going in the mans room. How do you think that makes them feel? Children and parents included, all because you feel uncomfortable? So who's rights are more important? Yours, the parents, the children's?

"But please, continue to make excuses for why transgender people should continue to be treated as second class citizens. Continue to explain away why it is okay to make jokes about transgender people while their blood cries out for justice on the streets North Carolina, New York, Louisiana, and more. Let's just all make their deaths a joke, let's all reduce this to an irrational fear of someone's genitals, shall we? The ignorance is astounding and despite my words, mine are not a chisel for the thicker skull.

I am not un compassionate, this seems to be taken highly out of context however. Maby I missed something, its possible. I don't see anyone here making jokes as a result of others having been killed. You want people to see from your perspective, totally understood. You however seem to refuse to see things from the perspective of that parent, from there children. Doesn't make what happened to those individuals who were killed right, but neither does walking into the restroom/locker of the opposite sex and not caring how people react because it makes you more comfortable...

"I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi."

lets not forget that even after 400 years society is still too ignorant to get the treatment of those from african descent right. in fact society has taken steps backwards in recent years...the lbgt community is still relatively new by comparison and has achieved more than the black community...neither community has been given the respect or dignity it deserves...religious based intolerance has worked its evil well...if it was possible to just snap fingers and have things magically set right i'm sure it would have happened by now...it takes time to deprogram society from its ignorance...

gays and trans are dying now in the quest for social equality, and it is truly sad...blacks are dying still for equality, also truly sad...i'm not making excuses for it, i'm disgusted by it....i'm constantly speaking up for the lbgt community as well as the black community locally....one voice against a million goes unheard...especially where i am...i'm surrounded by bigotry. there are numerous kkk and neo nazi groups where i live, and i butt heads with them all the time...i've even been shot at by them...i'm not calloused to your plight, but i do understand that changing people is a time consuming and often dangerous thing.

Jamie Stick wrote: Your error is to assume that biology or physiology = gender.

No, but physiology = sex (most of the time), so the question becomes should we segregate these intimate rooms based on sex or gender?

[hr]

RyuJin wrote: when i was playing football the thought that there could be a gay teammate checking me out always lingered in my mind...but i decided that it was a compliment if a gay guy found me attractive :lol:

In high school drama classes, I was the semi-attractive, charming straight guy. As such, I was extended an open pass to both dressing rooms. Nobody seemed to freak out about it. When we'd compete with other schools, I quickly discovered the appropriate response to being hit on by a member outside your preference was simply "Aw, thanks! That's sweet." and find some way to let them know I wasn't interested, but appreciated the compliment.

[hr]

LTK wrote: If a voyeur that was posing as transgender goes into the woman's locker room, that's asking for problems. I know I wouldn't want my wife in such a locker room and she has voiced the same to me.

I'm sure the incidence of this is rather rare, what with all the hatred and violence the transgender community experiences on a daily basis. That would be like pretending to be gay in the deep, deep, conservative South: you might get a peek, but you're much more likely to be beaten to death and dragged behind a pickup truck until they can't identify your body.

LTK wrote: I think it's a bad policy of Planet Fitness and I don't support it.

I don't agree with the instant cancelling of her membership. I think they at least owed her a conversation about it first. Banning folks from the gym isn't going to make this any better, but education on tolerance will. Then, give her the option: this is how this company operates, do you still want to be a member here?

[hr]

Adder wrote: The biggest gripe I have is probably female children using female lockers... I think they probably shouldn't be seeing an adult males package in such an uncontrolled and unsolicited way

Zenchi wrote: Adder mentioned parents not wanting their daughters exposed to someone else's "Manjunk" :lol: and he has a very good point.

OB1Shinobi wrote: i agree that everyones basic dignity should be respected but i also understand that if you have boy parts a lot of people are just not going to accept the fact that you consider yourself a girl
not when it relates to boy parts being naked in the same space as their little daugters.

I have two problems with this line of thought:

1. It prioritizes perceived female sexual purity above perceived male sexual purity.
2. It presupposes that the human body is inherently harmful or shameful in some way.

Both of these notions are huge, huge problems for me.

Firstly, why are women such delicate creatures that we must protect them from the ills of society, but men are required to be strong enough to "deal with" things as they come? No one here has yet expressed concern that little boys may be exposed to vulvae in "uncontrolled and unsolicited" ways, but [strike]two[/strike] three individuals have already expressed the opposite concern. Why is that? Is it because they should learn early what their goals for conquest are? Is it because men are naturally more sexually enthusiastic, and should be expected to enjoy the sight? Is it that we just assume that transmen aren't going to wander into the male locker room, and/or if they do, hey free ***** show? What exactly are we protecting little girls from that prioritizes them over little boys?

Secondly, the human body is not an inherently sexual object. I know that Western civilization, under the oppressive thumb of Roman Catholicism, Conservative Christianity, and formerly-British respectability have instituted this idea that the human body is a shameful creation, but everybody has one. Literally. Every one of us has (or is) a body. Is that body used for sexual procreation? Yes. But it's also used to exercise, transport things, protect our innards, and generally exist. I don't see why people get so uptight about this. Maybe it's just that I've routinely been in situations where I had to learn to be okay with the non-sexual aspects of the naked human form until I just lost all sense of shame over it, but really. Everybody has a body. Everybody lives in a body. Everybody is a body. What's wrong with bodies?

Firstly, why are women such delicate creatures that we must protect them from the ills of society, but men are required to be strong enough to "deal with" things as they come? No one here has yet expressed concern that little boys may be exposed to vulvae in "uncontrolled and unsolicited" ways, but two three individuals have already expressed the opposite concern. Why is that?

I expect it has more to do with the fact that the subject in the question was a woman upset with a transgender person in the female changing room. That is the focus of the conversation.. so that is the kind of comment being raised.

Right Edan, had I not been so exhausted last night I probably would have been more specific, I did say "children" multiple times. Anyways, with that being said...

Secondly, the human body is not an inherently sexual object. I know that Western civilization, under the oppressive thumb of Roman Catholicism, Conservative Christianity, and formerly-British respectability have instituted this idea that the human body is a shameful creation, but everybody has one. Literally. Every one of us has (or is) a body. Is that body used for sexual procreation? Yes. But it's also used to exercise, transport things, protect our innards, and generally exist. I don't see why people get so uptight about this. Maybe it's just that I've routinely been in situations where I had to learn to be okay with the non-sexual aspects of the naked human form until I just lost all sense of shame over it, but really. Everybody has a body. Everybody lives in a body. Everybody is a body. What's wrong with bodies?

First if all, public restrooms and lockers are divided by sex, not gender. Period. There's no complicating matters in that specific regard. Now, of course not everyone born can be so easily described as one or the other in terms of sex, and of course this doesn't cover everyone because as we know, life often times just is not fair. I am not including gender because the restoons and lockers are divided by sex, so lets not confuse the issue.

As silly as it sounds, civilization as we know it, rests upon this little assumption. The boys go in this room, and the girls in the other. Without those two little signs with stick man and woman (or just words) on the doors, civilization would fall under anarchy and lewed abandon. Order from chaos, from two signs, and an understanding (assumption) that he goes there, she goes here, and the two damn well better not meet. Silly actually, but that's how fragile our little world is. We are far from enlightened beings for the most part. Those two little signs constantly reinforce the illusion that we are different than the beasts in the jungle, that we are better. Well....sometimes we are, more often we however are not. But that's where we are right now, in most places with high speed internet anyways, lol.

LTK wrote: A woman in Michigan had her gym membership canceled because she refused to stop telling other gym patrons that a man was using the women's locker room.

Full story here: http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/relationships/planet-fitness-cancels-womans-membership-after-she-reports-transgender-woman-in-locker-room/ar-AA9uYW9

What are your thoughts if you're a woman in a female locker room and a transgender individual starts changing and their "junk" falls out?

What are your thoughts if you're a man in a male locker room and a transgender individual starts changing and her "downstairs" is there to see?

(Not that any of us are trying to peek anyway, but you get my point.)

I've always been one to say that if you have male parts, use the male locker room (even if you identify as a female) and if you have female parts use the female locker room (even if you identify as a male). If you've had sexual reconstruction and no longer have the male parts, feel free to use the female locker room and vice versa.

Thoughts?

I'm generally opposed to segregation. The matriarchy we live in is no different from the extreme form of racism that plagued america until recent times. Single out a minority of the population, and keep them apart, in not-as-well-equipped facilities, oh and blame them for it too.

this clip says it all. the important bit is at 2:24 and can be applied to any form of discrimination
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Bq_xnvScrHo#t=32

First if all, public restrooms and lockers are divided by sex, not gender. Period. There's no complicating matters in that specific regard. Now, of course not everyone born can be so easily described as one or the other in terms of sex, and of course this doesn't cover everyone because as we know, life often times just is not fair. I am not including gender because the restoons and lockers are divided by sex, so lets not confuse the issue.

As silly as it sounds, civilization as we know it, rests upon this little assumption. The boys go in this room, and the girls in the other. Without those two little signs with stick man and woman (or just words) on the doors, civilization would fall under anarchy and lewed abandon. Order from chaos, from two signs, and an understanding (assumption) that he goes there, she goes here, and the two damn well better not meet. Silly actually, but that's how fragile our little world is. We are far from enlightened beings for the most part. Those two little signs constantly reinforce the illusion that we are different than the beasts in the jungle, that we are better. Well....sometimes we are, more often we however are not. But that's where we are right now, in most places with high speed internet anyways, lol.

I am torn on this subject personally, based on the point that you brought up about them being separated by sex and not gender--I previously hadn't seen it from that perspective. But basing it off of sex and not gender then raises more questions and more issues. If something is based off of sex, then wouldn't it be male / female and not man / woman?

When sex is used to separate, then it becomes more complicated simply because of the fact that sex is directly linked with gender (at least in the heteronormative wide-spread ideology of society, even though I might disagree with that specific idea). Should the signs on the doors--since they are based off of sex and not gender--then be changed to an image of a penis and a vagina? Since these are the instruments of sex, then wouldn't this be more proper than saying: Man / Woman?

Since Man and Woman are the conventional words--and I know this can seem like I'm arguing semantics--that are used to describe gender, shouldn't they be eradicated so as to clear up the confusion? Say we found a transgender woman (mtf) who had no idea what basic societal perceptions and ideologies were regarding gender, sex, and what not. (Despite this being impossible, amuse me.) So we place this completely clueless person in front of a bathroom.

One way has a picture of the man stick figure and says: Men/Boys
One way has a picture of the woman stick figure and says: Women/Girls

This completely, socially clueless person, despite them having the sexual reproductive organs of a man, would most likely go into the woman's bathroom, considering they don't have any prior knowledge of social normatives, taboos, pressures regarding sexuality, and general conformist peer pressure. In this impossible situation, where history gets thrown out the window, this person would most likely not be confused in the slightest, considering they have no pressures, fears, or prior context, etc.

I guess my question(s) to you/everyone else is: Are bathrooms truly separated based on sex and sexual reproductive organs? Is sex defined by man/woman instead of penis/vagina? Then what is gender? Would communal bathrooms--even though this is a longshot of ever coming true--be the answer to this dilemma? And what about transgender children? What happens to them?

Terribly sorry if that's a lot of questions, haha, your reply really intrigued me and made me think about it from another perspective and now I'm curious as to what other people think. P.S. Sorry I typed a practical wall of text. Oops, haha!