Sharing a locker room with a transgender

steamboat28 wrote: I have two problems with this line of thought:

1. It prioritizes perceived female sexual purity above perceived male sexual purity.
2. It presupposes that the human body is inherently harmful or shameful in some way.

Both of these notions are huge, huge problems for me.

Firstly, why are women such delicate creatures that we must protect them from the ills of society, but men are required to be strong enough to "deal with" things as they come? No one here has yet expressed concern that little boys may be exposed to vulvae in "uncontrolled and unsolicited" ways, but [strike]two[/strike] three individuals have already expressed the opposite concern. Why is that? Is it because they should learn early what their goals for conquest are? Is it because men are naturally more sexually enthusiastic, and should be expected to enjoy the sight? Is it that we just assume that transmen aren't going to wander into the male locker room, and/or if they do, hey free ***** show? What exactly are we protecting little girls from that prioritizes them over little boys?

What? wow, ok... I'll try to reply since it was to my point. Yea, the OP example was female and my post was relying the experience and opinion of females known to me, in that regard. My own opinion is that we could all be nudists for all I care
:woohoo: :blush:
At least then kids would already be 'exposed' to it all
:pinch:
No actually, I don't want to see any guys manjunk, nor anyones butt under uncontrolled circumstances, eeek. It is the waste end of business so it makes sense its a bit glossed over and marginalized!!!

So yea I don't think I implied any difference to treating men and women - I'm not sure where all that is coming from steamboat but I'm not sure its relevant enough to my point for me to try and work out, sorry. In my experience men are more violent and likely to offend in sexually motivated crime <shrug>. You can argue it with statistics all you like, as I'm only referring to my own observations, but it doesn't change the fact that women can do the same thing too, which tends to support my opinion that the 3rd bathroom is the most practical and safe solution.

Trying to understand the OP problem.... do transgender people disassociate themselves from their genitalia by any chance? On one hand its said genitalia does not mean gender, but on the other I know some of them surgically remove/alter/add to have the external appearance of their gender. That confuses me a little. If birth genitalia does not denote gender, but it can sometimes help a person fit in socially to align them, then I think it's interesting to reflect that for many/most non-transgender people genitalia 'is' tied explicitly to self identity and sexuality (in both binary sexes, thanks steamboat). That to me explains why larger societies have tended to separate on the basis of sex. If there is a genital disassociation happening in transgender people which underlies their capacity to use either bathroom, it seems to ignore that the disassociation might not exist in non-transgender people who thus do prefer to have the genitalia based separation. I still don't mean to offend anyone BTW!!!

All things being normal, I would have thought a person appearing female would use a female room, using a private stall for 'business' and any err maintenance and no-one would know the wiser, and vice versa. So I guess the problem is people who know someone is transgender and have an issue with that person... sort of thing. Which brings us to the nitty gritty of it, what sort of policy does a facility have in this regard.... well its such a complex issue it will not be able to cover all aspects satisfactorily, again then to me leaving the third bathroom option as the easiest and safest solution for everyone BUT I'm not up on all the issues involved. Sorry if I've repeated myself.

Adder wrote: Trying to understand the OP problem.... do transgender people disassociate themselves from their genitalia by any chance? On one hand its said genitalia does not mean gender, but on the other I know some of them surgically remove/alter/add to have the external appearance of their gender. That confuses me a little. If birth genitalia does not denote gender, but it can sometimes help a person fit in socially to align them, then I think it's interesting to reflect that for many/most non-transgender people genitalia 'is' tied explicitly to self identity and sexuality (in both binary sexes, thanks steamboat). That to me explains why larger societies have tended to separate on the basis of sex. If there is a genital disassociation happening in transgender people which underlies their capacity to use either bathroom, it seems to ignore that the disassociation might not exist in non-transgender people who thus do prefer to have the genitalia based separation. I still don't mean to offend anyone BTW!!!

If I'm correctly understanding what your curiosity is regarding transgender individuals' views on gender, sex, and their genitalia, then I think the answer is bathed in the complexity of societal expectations, gender roles, pressures regarding sexuality, and sexual health education. Binary separation throughout the ages can be tied to the relative level of education, the fundamentals of scientific knowledge, people being unknowingly ignorant regarding scientific theories/facts, and the effects of religion(s). To simplify my perception of it, it's basically this: People didn't really understand.

With the complex brain sciences, psychological evaluations, genetic variances, and boatloads of other scientific neurosciences and psychological sciences that we have available to us, we can more accurately disassociated gender from sex. An individual's sex is, by definition, their biological reproductive organs. Gender, by definition, is an individual's self-perception and psychological identity regarding whether they are male or female, man or woman, girl or boy. When it comes down to this basic separation, this causes concerns when one doesn't take into account sciences revolving around the brain, psychology, sexual health, orientation, and personal/sexual identity.

In the case of transgender individuals disassociating themselves with their genitalia, this is completely possible through the use of rationalization, a common psychological tool used to help individuals cope--or suppress in times of psychological distress--with their emotions. I know, from hearing many personal transgender individuals' accounts, that their feelings about their genitalia is varied, like along a spectrum. When it comes to transgender people as a whole, however, I have found anecdotally that emotions relating to genitalia are ones of loathing, frustration, and discomfort. Transgendered individuals often go through operations to alter their genitalia--called sex/gender reassignment surgery--so as to conform to social conventions regarding sex and gender. Many individuals who are not aware of the psychological factors relating to being transgender will have a very simplistic and binary view of sex and gender. It is fundamental, however, that one realizes two are very much so different--although still being intrinsically tied with one another.

Gender is in the mind; sex is in the biological makeup. Transgender individual disassociate themselves from their genitalia due to their mental state, and thus their gender, being that of the opposite sex. They identify and wish they were the opposite sex, especially biologically. Many, if they could be born again, would have the opposite sex assignment. All of this, however, once again plays in with societal pressure, cultural norms, an individual's level of comfort with both their body, their sexual identity, orientation, and transgenderism, as well as their psychological stability.

And again, separation based off of genitalia is perfectly fine and well--it makes perfect logical sense. When it comes to individuals' emotions and how society perceives them--as well as their own personal, psychological projections onto how they think society perceives them--it becomes a muddied topic. If a trans woman who passes--aka you wouldn't know by looking at her; also known as 'in stealth'--goes into the male locker room, that's societally unacceptable and therefore she is branded as the male sex and as a man (the latter which can be seen as relating to gender rather than sex). Also, individuals can have their sex on their birth certificate changed legally within the court system. Sometimes this is before surgery (pre-op) sometimes it is required to have completed the gender/sex reassignment surgery (post-op; they may also be considered transsexual). So put all the societal/cultural/social issues together and the basis of separation based on sex/genitalia, compound it with the level of psychological evaluation and knowledge regarding transgendered individuals, the legal ramifications of birth certificate changes based on sex, and a transgender individual's need for acceptance, self-love, self-acceptance, and normality: it becomes extremely complicated.

You might say I was living under a rock, but this seems like no biggy for me.

I mean, I've never had this happen to me, but if someone's junk "fell out" (or failed to fall out), and we were butt-naked, THAT CLOSE, I guess that's as good of time as any to strike up the conversation. If not, I'm sure the locker room isn't 1-cubit by 1-cubit, so take a hike or scoot over, and quit staring at junk that ain't yours

"Don't knock it till ya tried it" comes up for me on this one..

J. K. Barger wrote: You might say I was living under a rock, but this seems like no biggy for me.

I mean, I've never had this happen to me, but if someone's junk "fell out" (or failed to fall out), and we were butt-naked, THAT CLOSE, I guess that's as good of time as any to strike up the conversation. If not, I'm sure the locker room isn't 1-cubit by 1-cubit, so take a hike or scoot over, and quit staring at junk that ain't yours

"Don't knock it till ya tried it" comes up for me on this one..

Tell that to parents...

J. K. Barger wrote: You might say I was living under a rock, but this seems like no biggy for me.

I mean, I've never had this happen to me, but if someone's junk "fell out" (or failed to fall out), and we were butt-naked, THAT CLOSE, I guess that's as good of time as any to strike up the conversation. If not, I'm sure the locker room isn't 1-cubit by 1-cubit, so take a hike or scoot over, and quit staring at junk that ain't yours

"Don't knock it till ya tried it" comes up for me on this one..

If I'm at the gym with my 13 year old daughter there is no way in hell I'm sending her in to change knowing a transgender woman with a penis could be in there with her. I'd be cancelling my Planet Fitness membership very quickly.

The more I think about this, the more I like a family area type bathroom where you can go in, lock the door, be alone, do your thing, then leave to go exercise.

LTK wrote: The more I think about this, the more I like a family area type bathroom where you can go in, lock the door, be alone, do your thing, then leave to go exercise.

Therein lies the solution. Replace separate bathrooms with communal, "family-style" bathrooms, where sex/genitalia isn't a factor. This eliminates issues with children as well, as parents with young boys/girls may not want their child to have to go into the same bathroom as them in a mother/father (respectable to boys/girls) circumstance.

there are gyms that allow children under 16?

the last gym i was member of required under 18 be accompanied by adults, and no one under 16 was allowed for safety and insurance reasons....

Looks like I'm kind of late. Oh well. On one hand, I think that it takes a fairly immature person to say there's something wrong with sharing a locker room with someone who is a certain gender in every way except for their genitals. On the other hand, I could see it becoming a problem in certain locker rooms where children are present. Not because it is bad for transgendered people to be around children, but because if they see them naked, the parent is forced into the situation where they have to explain different reproductive organs to a young child. I know that "the talk" about sex is something which most parents don't look forward to, so that could raise an issue.

Personally, I was never a fan of the locker room, anyway. I'd much rather change in a toilet stall than in a locker room; that way nobody has any kind of issue here. Heck, clothing stores have changing rooms -- why not gyms and pools? The idea of an open locker room makes little sense to me when a personal space to change in is just as viable in terms of construction. I mean, things might move slightly slower, but I know that it never takes me, personally, more than 1.5 minutes to take my clothes off and slap some shorts and a shirt on if I want to go running or something.

A Taekwondo dojang I used to go to had a single small room where you could go in and switch clothes. There were children, adults, males and females all in that dojang, and there was never a single issue. Really, why not have individual changing rooms?

Edit: Also, I don't think that a transgender woman who has a penis should have any trouble in a women's locker room where, presumably, she's surrounded by intelligent and mature adults. Really, it's kind of mindblowing how immature people can be, regardless of their age. I should think more about how this reflects on our culture.

to steamboat:

i agree completely

im on the same side in every sense *except that when it comes to the issue of parents being overprotective i understand that the only thing to do here is support the parents while promoting open and factual discourse

"to protect the children" is like a magic button for stupid people

but its ALSO a magic button for smart people

bottom line is that it doesnt matter if the parents ideas afe wrong

i say planet fitness can choose whatever locker policy it wants and people can choose to join or not join based on their own determination

i will always stand in favor of acknowledging human dignity - in the case of children the dignity to my way of thinking is to side with the parents desires while promoting education so that they can come to the conclusion for themselves

RyuJin wrote: there are gyms that allow children under 16?

the last gym i was member of required under 18 be accompanied by adults, and no one under 16 was allowed for safety and insurance reasons....

I think you're right.

Still, I'd feel the same with a 16 year old daughter.