Sharing a locker room with a transgender

So everyone is worried about children being harmed in some way if a member of the opposite sex poses as a transgendered person to get access to the <insert location>. But doesn't that assume that those who would want to harm children would be so terrified of just walking into <insert location> regardless of whatever rules there were for who could and could not enter.

If someone wants to just walk into an opposite gender location and harm a child they will do so regardless of what laws are in place.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Goken wrote: Though I am willing to bet that the number of transgender individuals assulted in changing areas/bathrooms is far greater than the number of assults perpatrated by transgender individuals. This makes the fear of them causing problems in those areas statistically invalid.

Can you show me incidents of transgender people assaulting people in the bathroom/locker room?

No, but I didn't take the time to look it up. I'm also saying that if it does happen that its a very small number, especially when compared to the number of times it happens to transgender people.

Exactly. No law is going to stop a predator from molesting a child.

It will mean that transgender people are not safe in the bathroom/locker room they're forced to use.

Goken wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:

Goken wrote: Though I am willing to bet that the number of transgender individuals assulted in changing areas/bathrooms is far greater than the number of assults perpatrated by transgender individuals. This makes the fear of them causing problems in those areas statistically invalid.

Can you show me incidents of transgender people assaulting people in the bathroom/locker room?

No, but I didn't take the time to look it up. I'm also saying that if it does happen that its a very small number, especially when compared to the number of times it happens to transgender people.

Right, but since everyone is just going off of gut feelings (aka prejudice, bias, and preconceived assumptions about transgender people) we're more willing to entertain the idea that a transgender person is, by default, a child molestor than the idea that a transgender person is just a person who doesn't fit the traditional ideas about gender and wants to use the bathroom/locker room in peace.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Goken wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote:

Goken wrote: Though I am willing to bet that the number of transgender individuals assulted in changing areas/bathrooms is far greater than the number of assults perpatrated by transgender individuals. This makes the fear of them causing problems in those areas statistically invalid.

Can you show me incidents of transgender people assaulting people in the bathroom/locker room?

No, but I didn't take the time to look it up. I'm also saying that if it does happen that its a very small number, especially when compared to the number of times it happens to transgender people.

Right, but since everyone is just going off of gut feelings (aka prejudice, bias, and preconceived assumptions about transgender people) we're more willing to entertain the idea that a transgender person is, by default, a child molestor than the idea that a transgender person is just a person who doesn't fit the traditional ideas about gender and wants to use the bathroom/locker room in peace.

You do realize that, while I am basing this on gut feeling, that I'm on your side, right? I'm arguing your point. I'm glad to see you looking at both sides with the same scrutiny, I'm just unsure of what I did wrong. I openly admitted in the first sentance that I was "willing to bet that..." which to me says "I don't know for sure but go ahead and prove me wrong."

Also, while I didn't take the time to find evidence of it happening, I refuse to believe that any group of people are, by default, incapable of assault. To me that's the same as saying that they are, by default, going to commit assault. Although one looks more positive than the other they are both a generalized bias and I won't do that. Any person is, in my mind, just as likely to commit assault as any other person until I know their character personally so I can judge for myself on an individual basis. It has nothing to do with race/nationality/gender/sex/height/tattoos or anything else external. You're a person, until I know you you are just as likely to assault someone as the next person that I don't know. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's the way I treat everyone. Equally.

Jamie Stick wrote: we're more willing to entertain the idea that a transgender person is, by default, a child molestor

I do not think that is the whole argument (or at least if someone is explicitly making that argument then they should seriously spend some time in self-reflection...). The argument being made (it seems to me) is that if you let in people who on the surface look like the opposite sex then people will pretend to be of the opposite sex in order to get into places they shouldn't be (and then molest children or something). That is not saying that transgendered people are molesters, but that people would abuse the system.

This seems more to be a fear of the abuse of the system.

What must then be discussed from there is whether that fear is justified, and if it is whether all transgendered people should be punished because of it.

You make quite a few assumptions, its ok, your passionate about it I understand. I get it, you are doing your best to raise awareness about something you feel very strongly about, but those feelings are leading you to throw borderline insults out of anger, and this is a Jedi temple/site. The world is far from perfect, it sucks for a lot of people. As I stated before, this isn't the fifties where a group of young black men walk into an all white diner demanding to be serviced. It's alot more complicated than that.

I don't advocate violence towards anyone, especially Individuals wanting to use the bathroom. In an ideal world, there would be three bathrooms, or four, or five. You cannot please everyone. So again, who's rights are more important, yours, the parents, the minors? You claim its all reactions from an unevolved or unenlightened group, but I've noticed quite a bit of belligerence being thrown about because the world isn't conforming to your wishes. The world isn't about to bend any time soon, the vast majority of people are against what you want, life is not fair. What will you do in the mean time, grow more angrier and angrier, giving it back to people who dont agree with you until you yourself become violent?



I am a Jedi, an instrument of peace;

Where there is hatred I shall bring love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

I am a Jedi.

I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love;
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

The Force is with me always, for I am a Jedi.

Goken wrote: You do realize that, while I am basing this on gut feeling, that I'm on your side, right? I'm arguing your point. I'm glad to see you looking at both sides with the same scrutiny, I'm just unsure of what I did wrong. I openly admitted in the first sentance that I was "willing to bet that..." which to me says "I don't know for sure but go ahead and prove me wrong."

I'm sorry if it came across as a personal attack, it was not meant to be, but all the same I apologize for my harsh words. I'm quite passionate about this and, as you might guess, have a personal stake in what is being said here.

Goken wrote: Also, while I didn't take the time to find evidence of it happening, I refuse to believe that any group of people are, by default, incapable of assault. To me that's the same as saying that they are, by default, going to commit assault. Although one looks more positive than the other they are both a generalized bias and I won't do that. Any person is, in my mind, just as likely to commit assault as any other person until I know their character personally so I can judge for myself on an individual basis. It has nothing to do with race/nationality/gender/sex/height/tattoos or anything else external. You're a person, until I know you you are just as likely to assault someone as the next person that I don't know. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's the way I treat everyone. Equally.

You are most certainly correct that no one is immune to scrutiny just because they are a marginalized group (at least, that's what I think you're saying in a broader context). There are definitely things that happen within the transgender community (there's actually a huge fracture between trans women and trans men over the erasure of abuse and violence that trans women face, but I don't want to get into that).

What I'm unwilling to tolerate is the continued willful ignorance and irrational stance on transgender people using bathrooms and locker rooms simply because we are afraid.

Akkarin wrote:

Jamie Stick wrote: we're more willing to entertain the idea that a transgender person is, by default, a child molestor

I do not think that is the whole argument (or at least if someone is explicitly making that argument then they should seriously spend some time in self-reflection...). The argument being made (it seems to me) is that if you let in people who on the surface look like the opposite sex then people will pretend to be of the opposite sex in order to get into places they shouldn't be (and then molest children or something). That is not saying that transgendered people are molesters, but that people would abuse the system.

You're right and I only realized it upon rereading my response.

Akkarin wrote: What must then be discussed from there is whether that fear is justified, and if it is whether all transgender[strike]ed[/strike] people should be punished because of it.

Transgender person (No -ed, that makes it sound like being transgender is something that happens to you, like catching a disease)

On the first part of your question, I feel like it might even more tricky than that. I suspect there might be a pedophile who would abuse our trust, but I think your second question is spot-on and the answer is no. Doctors, priests, and babysitters have all had troubled pasts with certain individuals in their ranks molesting children, but do we write off all doctors, priests, and babysitters? Nope. We have stricter laws that punish people who abuse the system, but we don't punish all doctors, priests, and babysitters.

Jamie Stick wrote:

Akkarin wrote: What must then be discussed from there is whether that fear is justified, and if it is whether all transgender[strike]ed[/strike] people should be punished because of it.

Transgender person (No -ed, that makes it sound like being transgender is something that happens to you, like catching a disease)

You're right it does, my mistake.

The world isn't about to bend any time soon, the vast majority of people are against what you want, life is not fair.

This conversation for me at least (as someone who supports the rights of transgender persons) isn't about who or how many agree, it is about whether or not such beliefs are justified when put under scrutiny and in the wider light of our ethical beliefs as Jedi.

I shall not say whether for or against is right or wrong, I will only lay out the argument as I see it and the implications being made when coming to whatever conclusion and then seeing if all this is rationally justified.