A Problem.

@ Proteus
Doesn't your previous post actually make a good case for setting some standards? It seems that the temple allows anyone, no matter what kind of person they are, to join and call themselves a Jedi. We don't have anything defined (as you and others have pointed out) which makes it rather easy to fall back on, "that person is at a different place on their path," when someone demonstrates (I know this is what this thread is about but for lack of a better term) un-Jedi-like behavior, rather than considering the possibility that they might not be on the path at all. To use your exceptionally apt explanation of the ego's role in this, if a person's ego does not want the same things as Jedi, can they actually be considered Jedi? As a follow up question, aren't we supposed to be beyond the limitations of our own individual egos anyway?

Since no one else will say it: ToTJO does actually have standards for what it is to be a Jedi. It's written in the Doctrine area.

Every time I bring up "What is a Jedi" its like very few people actually want to defend what ToTJO has written up. The Doctrine (like any other religious document) is meant to be interpreted by "reasonable persons". Not bending it to make what they want to make out of it. There is still a great deal of flexibility, just not to the extent that people like to stretch it too.

Reasonable Persons....

Alethea Thompson wrote: Every time I bring up "What is a Jedi" its like very few people actually want to defend what ToTJO has written up.

Perhaps people dont feel the need to defend it?

Some people like it when you refer to the Doctrine, some think you’re being an jerk… can’t please them all I guess.

But mostly I just set back and watch the chaos ensue. It’s actually quite interesting to see what people will say.

Hahhahahahha :woohoo:

There are people who clearly reject aspects of the doctrine, and others who can act like bible-thumpers. Pointing out incompatibilities with the doctrine is not the same as saying "you're wrong/bad/not-jedi the doctrine says so".

Alethea Thompson wrote: Since no one else will say it: ToTJO does actually have standards for what it is to be a Jedi.

Only two sections of that are actually "standards" for Jedi, and they aren't even standards that all our Knights hold to or agree with, much less the greater population of Guests, Members, Novices, and Apprentices.

Because of this, they must be taken as organizational standpoints, not requirements for individual membership. Any other reading actually tramples on tons of forum posts and threads full of teaching that whatever your path is, it's right for you, and undermines the membership of more than a couple of people.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Since no one else will say it: ToTJO does actually have standards for what it is to be a Jedi. It's written in the Doctrine area.

That's always been obvious to me and I'm not anything special intelligence wise.

Not bending it to make what they want to make out of it. There is still a great deal of flexibility, just not to the extent that people like to stretch it too.

and why do they do that and wine when people point that out to them? I'm puzzled by this.

ren wrote: There are people who clearly reject aspects of the doctrine, and others who can act like bible-thumpers. Pointing out incompatibilities with the doctrine is not the same as saying "you're wrong/bad/not-jedi the doctrine says so".

There is nothing new about that with any religion. I think people get overly attached to what they believe, hang stubbornly to their beliefs and can't come to terms to the idea they may be wrong on. An open minded person, IMHO, would be open to questioning their certitude.

I was actually hoping someone would bring up the doctrine and I'm also glad you qualified that statement with "reasonable persons" because it means that unreasonable people who cannot interpret the doctrine correctly should be excluded. Before anyone jumps on me for that, by 'correctly' I mean 'in a way that isn't completely absurd.' I don't mean that I believe just because your interpretation is different than mine that you're wrong. Hopefully we can all agree that by saying Jedi are wary of attachments, both material and personal we don't mean that Jedi should live an ascetic lifestyle or that Jedi are patient so if you ever lose your patience just once you're out.

The doctrine is nice, but it's loosely enforced. The teachings and maxims are smart and cohesive and the tenets are exactly what the core of a Jedi should be. Whoever actually wrote those up, thank you. I was honestly impressed when I first found this site and read through the whole doctrine. Unfortunately, it all just becomes pretty words when people who don't align with those words whatsoever are allowed to call themselves Jedi.

I typed out much more to add to this, but honestly, I found myself getting tangled in my own thought process because there is so much I want to say and I don't want to post some incoherent rant. I think I'll just say that, when it comes down to it, I just expected more from Jedi. A few people here are great and they take this philosophy seriously. Other people take the courses and write in their journals and they equate that with personal and spiritual growth.

My favorite band is The Who. I saw them live when I was a kid and they were phenomenal. One line from a song of theirs called I've Had Enough always stuck with me and seems appropriate here.

"You were under the impression that when you were walking forward that you'd end up further onward, but things ain't quite that simple."

This thread is correct. There is a problem. But the problem isn't people calling other people out for being un-Jedi, or trying to force their own perception of Jedi on others. It's people thinking that just because they call themselves Jedi it makes it so.

One of the things I have learned today is not to concern myself so much with others behaviors because I feel that the energy that I use to "call someone out" on un-jedi like behavior actually detracts from my own work on the path. The best thing I can do is to become the sort of Jedi I want to see. Lead by example.