A Problem.

  • ren
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9 years 4 months ago #170865 by ren
Replied by ren on topic A Problem.

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote: I have felt a bit let down by that thread where a lot of people supported the death penalty. Perhaps if knights and clergy and such got a bit more involved, such discussions would benefit from the input of those better acquainted with the doctrine.


Well, if it bothers you, maybe you should join the clergy and lead by example?

lol....;)



If I thought clergy were any good at it back when I was on the council, I probably would have joined them, but the fact is my fondest memories of clergy are of them managing to produce a sermon without my assistance, usually because someone else was there to do the kickin' and screamin'. This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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9 years 4 months ago #170866 by Brenna
Replied by Brenna on topic A Problem.

ren wrote:

Jestor wrote:

ren wrote: I have felt a bit let down by that thread where a lot of people supported the death penalty. Perhaps if knights and clergy and such got a bit more involved, such discussions would benefit from the input of those better acquainted with the doctrine.


Well, if it bothers you, maybe you should join the clergy and lead by example?

lol....;)



If I thought clergy were any good at it back when I was on the council, I probably would have joined them, but the fact is my fondest memories of clergy are of them managing to produce a sermon without my assistance, usually because someone else was there to do the kickin' and screamin'. This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".



I think he meant join now, not way back when.



Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet

Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
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9 years 4 months ago #170867 by
Replied by on topic A Problem.
Yup! Best way to break something down and help rebuild it is from within. :laugh:

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #170869 by
Replied by on topic A Problem.

If I thought clergy were any good at it back when I was on the council, I probably would have joined them, but the fact is my fondest memories of clergy are of them managing to produce a sermon without my assistance, usually because someone else was there to do the kickin' and screamin'. This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".


Come on man put up or....

Be part of the solution. Do you believe you have valuable contributions or are just back ground noise? :) ;) :P
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9 years 4 months ago #170871 by Breeze el Tierno
Replied by Breeze el Tierno on topic A Problem.

SilverWolf wrote: Cabur, I am a member here and My Son Aiden-Gabriel is being raised, in a way through this community.


Sounds great. My son will turn one this Saturday. In twenty years, if either of them is involved in Jedi culture, they will be part of a very interesting community. They have their work cut out as well.
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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #170875 by
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First of all, thank you for the quick and thorough response. Also I'm not gonna go for a record in quoting quotes that were quoted because this would get unreasonably long, but I'll grab some highlights :)

Proteus wrote: That isn't a logic that exists as something to be imposed at all actually. The nature of the intentions of Jediism is based around ultimate truth. Ultimate truth is not imposed, it is always there waiting to be discovered, but can only be so by cleaning off ego-based artifacts of thoughts and ideas.

Very well. I accept that because that idea was expounded upon in your later responses and I have a better understanding of that now.

Proteus wrote: We learn on more of a philosophical level here at this temple, and leave the practical aspects to the individual according to how they wish to apply what they learn from the philosophy.

I'm leaving the rest out because, as much as I'd love to discuss all the other points, I want to stay on the subject of setting standards for Jedi. I understand that discussion is a useful way of helping Jedi understand how to apply the philosophy practically, but if left up to the individual and if there are no standards, who is to say that one person's practical application of the philosophy is acceptable? If they understand the philosophy in a way that puts their practical application on the other end of the spectrum of acceptable behavior than yours, without standards, how do you tell them they made a mistake? What do you point to and say, "No no, do it like this instead?"

Proteus wrote: You may have misunderstood what I am talking about concerning what is underneath labels. Anything created out of thought or judgement (including "lazy", "condescending", "cruel", or any else created by thought in the same way) is not reality, they are only judgments applied by ego. None of those states actually exist, and as long as one is convinced they do, they will not discover actual reality beneath all of it. In fact, as long as someone is trapped within the illusion of those ideas, they will inevitably exhibit those characteristics and behaviors, keeping them within a loop of judgement > acting out the charge. The self (the ego-self) cannot do the identifying, since the one identifying inevitably separates their self from what they go to identify when they do.

Ok. I understand that. I think I just needed a more in depth explanation to grasp your point. Lazy, condescending, and cruel aren't aspects of what a person truly is, but rather behaviors they exhibit. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're basing this on the belief that people are inherently good (for lack of a better term since I assume "good" is another label or judgment), with which I agree. So, let me rephrase what I was trying to get at: what about those who are unwilling to shed the illusion of those ideas? They say they are, but they make no effort to actually do it. In the military you can be discharged for "failure to adapt to military lifestyle." Say a soldier never cuts his hair (superficial I know but it could also be something more serious. Just a simple example to illustrate my point) no matter how many times his command tells him to. He says he will and promises to do so every time, but he never does. He can be discharged for not adapting to military lifestyle. Without standards, his hair could grow past his shoulders because he knows that he can keep getting away with exhibiting the same behavior with no repercussions. So, for the Jedi, at what point does someone who is unwilling to shed these behaviors lose the privilege of calling themselves a Jedi? Do we let their hair grow down to their ankles (figuratively speaking) or is there a standard?

Oneiros wrote: There are patterns to our experiences and perceptions that provide clues to the reality that we have become distracted (or as Alan Watts said, "hypnotized") from seeing.

Exchange of ideas and perspectives is enormously beneficial and they undoubtedly help us all grow. I can't really find the right words to relate this with my view of standards. Something like, "isn't a group better when they adhere to similar standards without becoming clones instead of just being a hodgepodge?" But that isn't phrased anywhere to close to the way I want it to be. I can't seem to form it my mind. If I do, I'll PM you though.

Proteus wrote: No problem at all. I'm happy to further explain and clarify my meaning more accurately. It is always necessary to, with the limitations of language. :)

Thank you :) and yeah, wouldn't it be great if we could just intuitively understand whole thought processes and intentions?

Proteus wrote: With the example of the thief, this is an example as to why we have an entire temple here dedicated to in-depth guidance of learning what it means to be a Jedi, far beyond telling anybody what they should do, critically including "to simply be yourself". Instead, the thief chooses on their own will to join such a community and to dedicated a great deal of time into deep self-reflective lessons that ultimately enable the thief, themselves, to discover what their true self is by realizing why they felt the need to steal in the first place (an impulse based on a trap of socially conditioned thoughts that manifest fear or boredom, or what else have you). Of course, things are not even that simple, which is why we spend as much time here as we do to really get down into the philosophical questions of our own psychology and spiritualism.

I like this. This is exactly how the training should work. But it's predicated on the fact that the thief comes here with pure intentions, and that isn't always the case. What about the thief that comes here and doesn't give up that behavior? At what point do you look at him and say, "I'm sorry, but you can't be a Jedi?"
I understand all the philosophical points you've put forth and agree with them wholeheartedly. Those are the kinds of things I was expecting when I came here this past summer. However, my questions are more about what to do with those that come here with no dedication and no desire to better themselves but just want to be called Jedi because they think it's cool.
Last edit: 9 years 4 months ago by . Reason: Left a big block of text that i didn't mean to leave

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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #170877 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic A Problem.

El Ren-o, el Magnifico, wrote: This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".


Can't argue there, lol...

El Connor-o wrote: Yup! Best way to break something down and help rebuild it is from within


Can't argue with this either....:)

Cabur Senaar wrote:

SilverWolf wrote: Cabur, I am a member here and My Son Aiden-Gabriel is being raised, in a way through this community.


Sounds great. My son will turn one this Saturday. In twenty years, if either of them is involved in Jedi culture, they will be part of a very interesting community. They have their work cut out as well


[strike]Can't agrue with that,[/strike] whoops....

My son is 15.. Been on the Jedi path for a few years now...:)

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


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9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #170880 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic A Problem.

Oneiros wrote: I'm leaving the rest out because, as much as I'd love to discuss all the other points, I want to stay on the subject of setting standards for Jedi. I understand that discussion is a useful way of helping Jedi understand how to apply the philosophy practically, but if left up to the individual and if there are no standards, who is to say that one person's practical application of the philosophy is acceptable? If they understand the philosophy in a way that puts their practical application on the other end of the spectrum of acceptable behavior than yours, without standards, how do you tell them they made a mistake? What do you point to and say, "No no, do it like this instead?"


In my eyes, one's own chosen perception and choice of practical application of a lesson is their responsibility. Self accountability is important. Therefore, whatever goes "wrong" with their practical application is on their hands. It is for them to adhere to the consequences of their choices and actions, and learn from their mistakes. No understanding nor practical application can always be perfect and this is one of the things that is part of learning as a Jedi. "Acceptable behavior", beyond the walls and control of the temple's own rules, is not determined by the temple but by the outcome of their actions. It is not for us to be an authority on this. It is not us who teach them, it is they who teach themselves through their experiences. This is how we have always learned from the beginning, because it is the most basic nature of learning we know of.

Oneiros wrote: Ok. I understand that. I think I just needed a more in depth explanation to grasp your point. Lazy, condescending, and cruel aren't aspects of what a person truly is, but rather behaviors they exhibit. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're basing this on the belief that people are inherently good (for lack of a better term since I assume "good" is another label or judgment), with which I agree. So, let me rephrase what I was trying to get at: what about those who are unwilling to shed the illusion of those ideas? They say they are, but they make no effort to actually do it. In the military you can be discharged for "failure to adapt to military lifestyle." Say a soldier never cuts his hair (superficial I know but it could also be something more serious. Just a simple example to illustrate my point) no matter how many times his command tells him to. He says he will and promises to do so every time, but he never does. He can be discharged for not adapting to military lifestyle. Without standards, his hair could grow past his shoulders because he knows that he can keep getting away with exhibiting the same behavior with no repercussions. So, for the Jedi, at what point does someone who is unwilling to shed these behaviors lose the privilege of calling themselves a Jedi? Do we let their hair grow down to their ankles (figuratively speaking) or is there a standard?


Well, thankfully, we don't punish somebody for failing to grasp a level of philosophy concerning their human nature. If they fail to learn, then the natural consequences of it will come about as they may. They will experience those consequences, and upon those consequences being undesirable to them, they will naturally figure out for themselves that until they do put in the sincerity to learn, they will continue to experience the effects brought about by where they are in their state of being. All we can do as a temple is be there for them in support of what they are experiencing and offer any guidance that we can (most aptly upon their eventual seeking of it), in the form of sharing our own understanding in a humble and compassionate manner.

Oneiros wrote: Exchange of ideas and perspectives is enormously beneficial and they undoubtedly help us all grow. I can't really find the right words to relate this with my view of standards. Something like, "isn't a group better when they adhere to similar standards without becoming clones instead of just being a hodgepodge?" But that isn't phrased anywhere to close to the way I want it to be. I can't seem to form it my mind. If I do, I'll PM you though.


Feel free to anytime. I just personally feel that if there are to be any standards, they may be better left to the smaller, more finite and controllable elements of the community, such as procedures with policies for ranks and social ethics, etc. Those are the ones that are employed here.

Oneiros wrote: I like this. This is exactly how the training should work. But it's predicated on the fact that the thief comes here with pure intentions, and that isn't always the case. What about the thief that comes here and doesn't give up that behavior? At what point do you look at him and say, "I'm sorry, but you can't be a Jedi?"


Actually, it doesn't assume pure intentions at all. Many of us didn't come here with pure intentions. Some of us started with one preconception of this place and ended up discovering, somewhat unexpectedly, things that resulted in some pretty major changes, all through what is actually a rather natural process of casual social interaction and observation.

For me, there is no point that I would ever determine that he's not a Jedi. I would never depend on determining that he was in the first place; simply a human being. Remember, a Jedi is a play on the archetype of the Hero on a personal Journey, and that journey often includes phases of faltering, before coming back into redemption. Every Hero experiences it because the virtues that define a Hero depend on it. It is only for the experience of human nature to determine what one can be or can't be - not an institution. That is not our job, nor our ability.

Oneiros wrote: I understand all the philosophical points you've put forth and agree with them wholeheartedly. Those are the kinds of things I was expecting when I came here this past summer. However, my questions are more about what to do with those that come here with no dedication and no desire to better themselves but just want to be called Jedi because they think it's cool.


Then they will experience the natural effects of what that brings. They may find that they are not taken seriously, and eventually will become bored after the fact. They may merely start out in such a state but then begin to witness things in certain people exhibiting sincere example around the temple that may instill an inspiration in them to decide to aspire to their state, and realize, they will have to put in the work to do it. Otherwise, they will remain bored and frustrated and go elsewhere to satisfy their ego. That is their prerogative, and not our responsibility to dictate. However, if they begin to disturb the community's ability to focus on the lessons they are working on, they are consulted via PM or email to work out the issue at hand, and if it comes to pass that no amount of dealing with them that way will lessen their disturbance, there are protocols followed to remove them from the temple until they decide to respect the spirit of the rules of the community.

“For it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.”
― Bruce Lee

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9 years 4 months ago #170881 by ren
Replied by ren on topic A Problem.

Rickie The Grey wrote:

If I thought clergy were any good at it back when I was on the council, I probably would have joined them, but the fact is my fondest memories of clergy are of them managing to produce a sermon without my assistance, usually because someone else was there to do the kickin' and screamin'. This being said it'd be nice to see knights and above contribute to "doctrinal discussions".


Come on man put up or....

Be part of the solution. Do you believe you have valuable contributions or are just back ground noise? :) ;) :P


I did my contributing doctrine-wise, now I do my background-noising :P

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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9 years 4 months ago #170927 by Breeze el Tierno
Replied by Breeze el Tierno on topic A Problem.

Jestor wrote: My son is 15.. Been on the Jedi path for a few years now...:)[/color]


That's very exciting! I hope he grows into an excellent Jedi.
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