A Problem.

Someone wrote: That doesn't seem very Jedi...

This sentence holds us back. This sentence keeps us from being who we should be. And no matter how often it's true, or how overwhelmingly true it is, it is never, ever the right thing to say.

By saying this sentence, you are firstly engaging in the " No True Scotsman " fallacy, which should be enough to stop most rational thinking beings in their tracks. If you don't understand why logical fallacies are a bad thing, we'll get to that in another post at another time.

We're all Jedi here, so saying this wretched statement implies that we're not "real" Jedi or "good" Jedi, which is some arbitrary ridiculousness that we reserve for perfect beings, none of which populate this particular Temple. We are all human. We all make mistakes--some of us more often than others, granted, but none of us are immune. We're all working toward the same goal here, too, so undercutting someone's progress when they slip is, itself, not very "Jedi" if we're going to point that finger.

It also reeks of that "holier-than-thou" crap most of us cite as a contributing factor to leaving other paths behind. If someone "isn't very Jedi", and you're pointing it out, you must be SOOOO much more Jedi than them. Except for that whole humility thing. Right?

Instead of snarkily reminding someone that they aren't "being Jedi", why don't we find constructive ways to suggest that their behavior is not what they are currently striving for?

"be mindful of your thoughts"
"that is not the jedi way"
ect... ect...

probably more constructive ways of observing a fallacy in someones actions or words , with out belittling them ..
just my opinion.

Perhaps it should be read as a question and given the intention of curiosity.... that doesnt seem very Jedi <curious question>? From that we could assert that the concept of Jedi is the individual view of the person asking, and not necessarily a judgmental accusation or challenge. Then the answer can be of explanatory nature about the answering persons view..... and if by chance that mindfulness reveals the answerer agrees it does not match their own view of Jedi, then its win-win; the questioner learns something about the other person and the answerer learns something about themselves.

In which case it would not longer be a logical fallacy, and the conceptualization of Jedi remains a personal idealization for self improvement etc, in an environment of shared goals and community participation.

I think you're right and unfortunately I've been guilty of doing this.

I think this speaks to a larger issue of everyone being at different levels of maturity when it comes to communication. There are so many pitfalls, plus all the challenges inherent to text communication versus verbal communication. It seems inevitable that we would run into this and many other issues.

Addressing this specific concern, it seems like we owe it to ourselves and to each other to be more courageous and take ownership of what we think. To cower behind an appeal to some non-existent universal conception of what is and isn't Jedi would indicate to me a lack of conviction. I'm sure many people who do this, as I have in the past, don't realize the implications of what they're doing. All I'm saying is I believe we can do better.

If you don't like something, say you don't like it and state why. From that people can engage with your complaint.

/rambling non-sense

*shrugs* One's Jedi can be different than another's. I don't think I've ever said: "Wow, you're not being much of a Jedi...". This is probably because... well, damn, I just can't put what a Jedi is into a little box. We all have things we're working on. I, myself, am working on my communication skills on the internet. Seems like I'm always misunderstood around here. I'm sure others work on their communication skills too, or their meditation skills, or their logic mind, etc.

Adder wrote: Perhaps it should be read as a question and given the intention of curiosity.... that doesnt seem very Jedi <curious question>? From that we could assert that the concept of Jedi is the individual view of the person asking, and not necessarily a judgmental accusation or challenge.

Tagging something as an interrogative doesn't necessarily work to take the malice out of it, especially online, where it's most likely to be interpreted as sarcasm. If this is the kind of discussion you wish to have with someone I won't stop you, but it might be best to take the question-and-answer portion of it to private messages or some other means of communication, rather than questioning their "Jedi" values in front of all and sundry.
[hr]

Jamie Stick wrote: I think you're right and unfortunately I've been guilty of doing this.

Me too. Often.

Jamie Stick wrote: I think this speaks to a larger issue of everyone being at different levels of maturity when it comes to communication. There are so many pitfalls, plus all the challenges inherent to text communication versus verbal communication. It seems inevitable that we would run into this and many other issues.

Addressing this specific concern, it seems like we owe it to ourselves and to each other to be more courageous and take ownership of what we think. To cower behind an appeal to some non-existent universal conception of what is and isn't Jedi would indicate to me a lack of conviction. I'm sure many people who do this, as I have in the past, don't realize the implications of what they're doing. All I'm saying is I believe we can do better.

If you don't like something, say you don't like it and state why. From that people can engage with your complaint.

This, exactly. I think this idea would make the Temple an area more fruitful for learning, because it cuts to the heart of the matter quickly and efficiently, leaving the floor open to discussion rather than mudslinging.
[hr]

Connor L. wrote: *shrugs* One's Jedi can be different than another's.

Which is another problem I have with the statement. We haven't really ever nailed down what "Jedi" is, so how can we measure people by it? In the "Jedi Books/Movies" threads, for example, someone will post something that's a "Hero's Journey" type film, someone else will post a book that's about honor and integrity, and all of my additions are films and books that question the nature of reality and self. To me, that shows a variety of opinions on what's really "Jedi".

We are practicing Jedi, not perfecting it.

Proteus wrote: We are practicing Jedi, not perfecting it.

Perfection is an unreachable goal, but the only one worth striving for. Even in failing, we are better than we were.

I think its was Cabur who coined the "Jedier than thou"...

There are different expectations of behavior for those who have taken oaths or been awarded the responsibility of rank. The "that doesn't seem very Jedi" I think its a nudge of "remember what we're trying to do?" , as long as its not being used in the wielding in the jedier than thou fight.

steamboat28 wrote:

Adder wrote: Perhaps it should be read as a question and given the intention of curiosity.... that doesnt seem very Jedi <curious question>? From that we could assert that the concept of Jedi is the individual view of the person asking, and not necessarily a judgmental accusation or challenge.

Tagging something as an interrogative doesn't necessarily work to take the malice out of it, especially online, where it's most likely to be interpreted as sarcasm. If this is the kind of discussion you wish to have with someone I won't stop you, but it might be best to take the question-and-answer portion of it to private messages or some other means of communication, rather than questioning their "Jedi" values in front of all and sundry.

Sarcasm only exists as long as its fueled. I prefer transparency, truth and respect.... because conflict without rules is a huge waste of time and resources, though IMO conflict with rules is still a waste of time and resources - just that it can allow certain types of progress BUT I've digressed, questioning can, indeed should, exclude judgmentalism but....

... sure I get what your saying, but who says what is right and wrong? Why would people feel unable or ashamed to talk about their Jedi values in public, or at a Jedi Temple!!!!!??? Simply don't judge the other person and then its up to them if they think it needs to be improved or not. If questioning leads to conflict, then I'd suggest it's being done wrong.