What is TOTJO?

Where is the value in honesty, then? How do I manage my lies so effectively that they never come back to haunt me, or harm others?

To clarify: If that is how you think, why would anybody trust you once they knew that?

Manipulation isn't about lying. Only idiots and simpletons have to lie to manipulate people. The truth, appropriately applied, provides far, far more leverage than any fantasy you could dream up.

As to your clarification, find someone on this board who claims they trust me and let them answer that. I'm fairly certain the answer will not be what you expect.

steamboat28 wrote:

rugadd wrote: I just felt the chill of the dark side.

[strike]You have literally no conception of how tame I am making my statements in this thread, compared to what goes through my mind while I'm typing my responses. It's still a bright, sunny, summer's day in this thread, so far as I'm concerned.[/strike]

Y'know, I was just gonna leave it at the original response, and then I realized I have a very serious problem with honesty and pragmatism being labelled as "dark side" virtues (if rugadd was in fact talking about my post.)

There is a certain kind of person that people go their whole entire lives hoping they'll never need, and it's the kind of person that can completely set aside human emotion at will and move people like pieces on a chessboard to get the maximum return for the minimum sacrifice or effort. These people are the kind of people that are willing to make hard choices when other people will not; to sacrifice three to save three hundred. To pull a plug on someone close to them so two other people might live because your friend was an organ donor. These people can reduce humanity to equations, predictions, observations.

And they are necessary for the good of the world. You don't have to like them. You don't have to want to be near them. But you need them.

A - I took it as a joke, but then again that could be Intent vs Impact, as was discussed in a different thread.

B - I really don't see Dark vs Light as being a Good vs Evil comparison; I see it as more Emotional vs Mechanical, and Steam, I would categorize your example as Dark Side, because you have taken all of emotion out of it.

If you go back to our Joseph Campell training, it's not Black vs White, but Black & White. Both sides have their place in this world, and one cannot exist without the other.

steamboat28 wrote: And, to more pointedly answer your question, I don't think you can express that in a way that won't offend people. You really can't. That's why I've stopped trying.

For some reason, everyone likes to think that they're just as smart as everyone else, and to break that fragile little eggshell in their mind is considered a cardinal sin for some reason. It isn't intended to be insulting, and yet no matter how you put it, someone's going to get their knickers in a twist over it because they assume that you're illustrating a contrast--because you're smart, then that means they must be dumb. That isn't true (well, it's mostly untrue. it's still partially accurate by way of comparison), but that's what people will think every time.

So, pray, someone explain to me:

• if we've never met,
• if you've never seen me working on something that fully flexes my mental muscles
• if you can't see inside my head

then how on earth am I supposed to let you know that I know more about X, Y, Z than you do, and that makes me pretty qualified to try to sort out whatever the problem is myself, in a way that won't be perceived as offensive?

It can't be done. People will always get p***ed off at you because you're suddenly "arrogant" if you show a proper, academic grasp of your capabilities.

I've not really run into that issue. Two things come to mind.

The first is the big rule if fiction writing. Show, don't tell. Demonstrate what you know by your actions and general behavior. Knowing what to do is well and good. Application in the day to day is more valuable.

Also, examine the need to inform people that you know more. Why do I need everyone to know? Often I here discussion of honesty and restrained speech being distinct. I do not think this is so. Restrained speech means I have mastered M passions and my ego to the point where, more often than not, I can speak the truth without lashing out. If I am calm, it speaks to my applied strength and calm. Often, when I hear people saying that they are going to bring the harsh truth, I see them failing to deal with their own ego more than giving the course correction they promised.

Certainly, none of this is universal. Lets not waste time with that bit of parsing. But if everyone else has trouble with my temper, with my behavior, with my edge, maybe the problem isn't with everyone else.

I think that was Alan Watts.

As to trusting Steamboat, I can answer that one just to fulfill the question he posed for you to seek- I trust him because of the experience I had with him in person for one day. He kept information close to the belt and only opened up once I brought to light a concern I had with Andy and Steam was nearby. I trust him because he has clarity of his abilities and talents which he doesn't need to expose, but instead awaits the opportunity to do so. There is wisdom in that, and I know I can count on him to apply such wisdom during all appropriate times. Does that mean we always agree? Of course not. It would be a tragedy if we did. But I know I can trust him on a variety of levels.

rugadd wrote: To clarify: If that is how you think, why would anybody trust you once they knew that?

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound like an accusation.

It should have been worded more precisely:

"If that is how a person thinks, why would someone trust them knowing that?"

I think my biggest problem is I equate manipulation to being dishonest and I equate being dishonest on purpose with lieing.

See, I associate manipulation with persuasion. Except with manipulation you use factual evidence, and with persuasion most use emotions.

Yeah. My own hang up. Once I calmed down I realized they are not the same thing. I did want to know, though. I knew I was confused.