What is TOTJO?

Purpose is; to be, or train to be, Jedi!

Rather then to be or not to be, Jedi!!!

TOTJO doctrine (to me at least) does not limit other paths of Jedi... I think its generic enough. After all, you don't need to finish our training to be a Jedi here.
I cannot resist thinking about that biopyschosocial model of mental health, which claims ideal mental health is good biological health, psychological health and social health all together.

Cabur Senaar wrote: One thing to remember: Knighthood.

One must find a teacher, do the work. Acceptance as an apprentice is not promised, let alone a date with the trials. Success is not a given.

I freely acknowledge that the standards of knighthood are not universal. Still, over time, if we are diligent, knight training will be refined. Give it time.

Perhaps the Knights and Masters are the elite, the examples to live up to. I think we could all agree that they should be. I wholeheartedly believe they can be.

And the rest of us are working on it.

* the bold print is mine

Thank you.

Re-fining would be much more wise and practical for us than de-fining. Why do we need a definition of Jedi, or of the Force ? Why do we cling to that need ? So we'll know what we're talking about ? Funny, we don't talk about that very much ... Any of us ... We talk about how to organise things, what we need to be doing to 'train' and how to organise that ... and then we try to say that our way is best.

I guess this sort of thing is part of it ...

We would do much better than to de-fine what it is to be Jedi, re-fine our approach to discovering that. If Jedi is the Way of the Force, then it isn't a particular path (a word which is terribly misunderstood) with particular markers along it. The Force is dynamic ; it is alive. And nothing living, nothing dynamic, changing, creating, becoming -- has a set 'path' to it. Any 'path' would simply lead to 'where it most surely has once been but then moved on'. And then the one who followed that 'path' arrives at its end to find only one's death-bed and a lot of Regret leading up to it.

That wouldn't be very Jedi-like, would it ?

This is a point I've been trying to make for a long time : re-fining instead of all this bloody defining. Defining is 'this' not 'that'. Sometimes it is 'this' and 'that', but that is conjunction, not indivisibility. We do not have to imagine what that does when 'this/that' are 'us/them'.

I don't know anything about elitism. It is a common outlook - certainly for those accustomed to so-called 'democracies' - that people find some comfort in regarding their leadership as sillier than they are. This is a very clever strategy for avoiding one's own responsibility : to kick it 'upstairs'. Well, there might be a slight difference between those who have studied and interacted with the mystery, explore that experience that is Life trying to see through the "game" even from within the game, trying to un-learn (and that doesn't mean to get stupid ; it simply means that 'right' isn't always 'right') in order to be inspired from moment to moment to a measure of Wisdom -- and those who have become convinced that a particular 'plan' for Life is the right one for everyone, but I don't know which side is the 'elite'.* It would seem that those who have really a feeling for the Force wouldn't believe that notion.

So, "What is the TotJO ?" It is one of the nodes in which our better business would be the refining of Jedi. Not defining it/us. One of the nodes ... not the only nor the best/right one. It is a learning centre, a social hub and a spiritual vehicle - all at once, inseparably. But all of the groups are ; it simply depends on what one is focussing on. All that stuff is there anyway ...


*

41 :

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found.
Yet it nourishes and completes all things.

I once said in an IP entry what I came to conclude about what the meaning of life is, after a Campbell lesson. I said "The meaning of life is the experience of life" ... nothing more. I could have complicated it to death, analyzed it until I lost my mind, segregated and labeled all the different aspects and parts of it.... I would have gone into circles endlessly and still have never actually gotten any closer to a clear, concise answer.

I tend to see people doing a lot of that when talking about what TOTJO is for, how it should work, what a Jedi is, what Jediism is, what this community sees it as, and what that community sees it as. We spend so much time pointing to the pointing finger.

The answer I came to in my IP lesson was not in the words "the experience of life"... it was/is within the ACTUAL experiences that I have in the present moment. Those experiences change, but not matter what they change to, they are still the meaning of life, at that particular time.

The thing is, once I realized this answer, layers upon layers upon layers of bs immediately began falling off of me, as to what life was NOT. What happened was that I stopped trying to define the meaning of life and instead, as Alexandre put it, refined it. I refined it to what was pretty much undeniable no matter what was going on. I couldn't have done that had I stuck with trying to tack more ideas and words and labels and notions onto it.

I think this is why I love TOTJO so much. In the FAQ, it starts off by saying what Jediism is NOT. But what it mentions there is only the tip of the iceberg as far as the whole picture goes. Alexandre is right. Why don't we stop trying to pile up notions about it and instead, shave off what TOTJO inexplicably is NOT, and see what we have left?

The following thoughts are primarily in response to Jestor's original post, but are also being written out of respect for someone who asked that I share my opinions on the current situation.

First, for the record, I agree with most of the structural changes that have been made. I think it's more than fair that Temple members should have a space to discuss things with others who are also committed to the Temple and interested in sincere discussions about Jediism. A forum implementing certain layers of access is not unreasonable, and participation in sections of a forum where people intend to be more open about themselves and their beliefs should come with the expectation of a greater level of respect, patience, and understanding from everyone.

Second, no one I've spoken with at the Temple is interested in excluding anyone. That's not what the recent changes were about (and, arguments aside, I believe most of you realize that). All that is required to gain entry to Member locations is going through the application process. Those of you who, for whatever reason, are opposed to doing so, will still find plenty of good conversation in the open areas. You have the right to complain that you are being excluded, but you also have the right to choose to become associated with the Temple if those areas unavailable to you as a Guest are important to you.

Third, this talk of elitism is ridiculous. Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order are Jedi, no matter what their rank bar shows. I don't think I'm better, more intelligent, or more capable than anyone else here or elsewhere... and it's my belief that the people behind the scenes at TotJO are doing the best they can to make sure everyone understands that we are all in this together.

I think of TotJO as a Temple and treat it as such. When I click into the forum, I remind myself that I am at a place of spiritual and religious significance. In answer to your question, Jestor, TotJO is a space where I go to explore and grow spirituality, personally, religiously, and philosophically. It is a place of learning and a social hub where I go to discuss my thoughts and feelings on spirituality.

It was the disrespectful, argumentative, subtle and blatant jabs that brought us to the point where many of us felt that we needed some shelter. I am just one of dozens of people who spoke out when I felt these problems were affecting a steady flow of genuine interactions at the Temple. I choose to surround myself with people who can help to improve and reinforce my views. I value diversity, not adversity, and have made a conscious decision to focus the majority of my energy and attention in a direction that enhances positive elements within my reality.

Someone suggested to me a moment ago that I was a coward for the way I feel about this topic and that I was only a Jedi pretender, and that hurt to be honest. I cannot change the minds of those who think it is sheepish that many of us want to avoid conflict on occasion, but I ask that those of you against the recent changes please look into your hearts and allow the rest of us our right to explore our individual paths in a space devoid of some of the negativity that has plagued the Temple.

The fact of the matter is that most of us will still engage openly in the main forum areas as well. I'm having a tough time seeing why there is any opposition to a section of the forum that is conducive to peaceful spiritual discussion. Learning how to communicate is, of course, a big part of the road to being a better Jedi, but there are other areas in which we need to improve, and saying that members of the Temple should put up with emotional abuse unnecessarily when working on particular aspects of our development as Jedi lacks a sense of compassion and understanding.

Not everyone learns the same way, thinks the same way, feels the same way... and if you are not in someone else's head (and let me remind you that you're not), please don't imagine that you know what is best for that person. The many people who came forward had sensible reasons for doing so. We're not all whiny babies. It is possible that those of us who spoke out in favor of a Member area are in the minority, in which case that minority should still be offered the support it requires, unhindered by the majority. We are part of this community as well.

I think TOTJO is where I come to expand and understand more fully the views I have of the world, myself and spirituality. I do think part of that comes from interaction with others here cause I learn a lot from what they say and do. All people here whatever there level teach me things in different ways. Good and bad lol.
I don't think anyone should have to put up with abuse of any kind or be called a coward or otherwise for wanting a safe area to explore things more fully.
One thing I will say is that no one here has ever made me feel my opinion doesn't count except for me. And viewing those with higher ranks as better/different/etc that comes from me to, they have always been pleasant and willing to talk and help.

Arcade wrote: It was the disrespectful, argumentative, subtle and blatant jabs that brought us to the point where many of us felt that we needed some shelter. I am just one of dozens of people who spoke out when I felt these problems were affecting a steady flow of genuine interactions at the Temple. I choose to surround myself with people who can help to improve and reinforce my views. I value diversity, not adversity, and have made a conscious decision to focus the majority of my energy and attention in a direction that enhances positive elements within my reality.

Someone suggested to me a moment ago that I was a coward for the way I feel about this topic and that I was only a Jedi pretender, and that hurt to be honest. I cannot change the minds of those who think it is sheepish that many of us want to avoid conflict on occasion, but I ask that those of you against the recent changes please look into your hearts and allow the rest of us our right to explore our individual paths in a space devoid of some of the negativity that has plagued the Temple.

In the Maxims, it is wrote: Conflict: To know when to fight.

A Jedi knows the conflicting nature of the Force but they also know its peace and serenity. A Jedi never blindly enters conflict and always does so for the greater good.

We dont fight for sport...

If my "opponent" is not listening, then why have the conversation?

Going against the stream, the flow, of a persons energy is tiring... Instead, we prefer to deflect, and change the course of the thoughts is possible to help our opponent to see what we are saying.....

I could tell Arcade that clowns are the best avatar, and he would disagree, except to say, "Well for you jestor, they might be..." Instead of meeting me for a conflict of who is right, he deflects the energy, and I am not hostile toward his critique of my choices of avatars... This is a basic idea that many of you miss... For a quick reminder, "faith" has many definitions, and instead of saying "Well, I dont use that word in the same manner.." It was said, "No I do not have faith.." when anyone looking at the conversation, and uses the word as I do, would see what I am saying... Enough on it, except to use as an example... I am not here to beat that horse up any more...

Other than a few times we (admin team) have had to step in, we have peacefully allowed all criticism to stand, and taken it... And made adjustments...

And this latest faux pas is not the first we have made... lol... Hopefully, last in this manner, lol...

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A favorite for sure!!!

steamboat28 wrote:

Oneiros wrote: So shouldn't we be better than base human nature?

When we completely rid ourselves of human nature, we cease to be human. Is that your goal?

Nowhere did I say "completely rid ourselves" of anything. We have a code that in one version says "there is no emotion" but we all understand that that doesn't mean we become cold and callous. We can be better than base human nature without losing our humanity. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

To clarify, when I said

Oneiros wrote: I think there is an amount of philosophy that will remove that from us. However, I don't think that everyone is capable of achieving it.

I was talking about the inability for leaders of the Jedi community to come together and finalize the ideas of Jediism, not human nature entirely.

Arcade wrote: The following thoughts are primarily in response to Jestor's original post, but are also being written out of respect for someone who asked that I share my opinions on the current situation.

First, for the record, I agree with most of the structural changes that have been made. I think it's more than fair that Temple members should have a space to discuss things with others who are also committed to the Temple and interested in sincere discussions about Jediism. A forum implementing certain layers of access is not unreasonable, and participation in sections of a forum where people intend to be more open about themselves and their beliefs should come with the expectation of a greater level of respect, patience, and understanding from everyone.

Second, no one I've spoken with at the Temple is interested in excluding anyone. That's not what the recent changes were about (and, arguments aside, I believe most of you realize that). All that is required to gain entry to Member locations is going through the application process. Those of you who, for whatever reason, are opposed to doing so, will still find plenty of good conversation in the open areas. You have the right to complain that you are being excluded, but you also have the right to choose to become associated with the Temple if those areas unavailable to you as a Guest are important to you.

Third, this talk of elitism is ridiculous. Jedi at Temple of the Jedi Order are Jedi, no matter what their rank bar shows. I don't think I'm better, more intelligent, or more capable than anyone else here or elsewhere... and it's my belief that the people behind the scenes at TotJO are doing the best they can to make sure everyone understands that we are all in this together.

I think of TotJO as a Temple and treat it as such. When I click into the forum, I remind myself that I am at a place of spiritual and religious significance. In answer to your question, Jestor, TotJO is a space where I go to explore and grow spirituality, personally, religiously, and philosophically. It is a place of learning and a social hub where I go to discuss my thoughts and feelings on spirituality.

It was the disrespectful, argumentative, subtle and blatant jabs that brought us to the point where many of us felt that we needed some shelter. I am just one of dozens of people who spoke out when I felt these problems were affecting a steady flow of genuine interactions at the Temple. I choose to surround myself with people who can help to improve and reinforce my views. I value diversity, not adversity, and have made a conscious decision to focus the majority of my energy and attention in a direction that enhances positive elements within my reality.

Someone suggested to me a moment ago that I was a coward for the way I feel about this topic and that I was only a Jedi pretender, and that hurt to be honest. I cannot change the minds of those who think it is sheepish that many of us want to avoid conflict on occasion, but I ask that those of you against the recent changes please look into your hearts and allow the rest of us our right to explore our individual paths in a space devoid of some of the negativity that has plagued the Temple.

The fact of the matter is that most of us will still engage openly in the main forum areas as well. I'm having a tough time seeing why there is any opposition to a section of the forum that is conducive to peaceful spiritual discussion. Learning how to communicate is, of course, a big part of the road to being a better Jedi, but there are other areas in which we need to improve, and saying that members of the Temple should put up with emotional abuse unnecessarily when working on particular aspects of our development as Jedi lacks a sense of compassion and understanding.

Not everyone learns the same way, thinks the same way, feels the same way... and if you are not in someone else's head (and let me remind you that you're not), please don't imagine that you know what is best for that person. The many people who came forward had sensible reasons for doing so. We're not all whiny babies. It is possible that those of us who spoke out in favor of a Member area are in the minority, in which case that minority should still be offered the support it requires, unhindered by the majority. We are part of this community as well.

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Arcade my freind. You have said it all very eloquently. I have nothing to add, except to say THANK YOU for all the hard work that our admin, our Councilors, our Knights, Apprentices and so on do in this temple. Working behind the scenes so we have the privilege (not right) to be here is a tremendous gift. One that I am extremely thankful for. When I see the temple I am tremendously proud and understand the unseen things that have to happen to make this place work. My hats off to each and every one of you. You are unpaid, volunteers and that speaks volumes about your dedication to this cause.

First, I apologize for responding in anger. I stand by my opinion, but that was not the best way for me to put things.


Second, I have no issue with members only areas. I see wisdom in not letting a raucous bunch of winos trapeze through the study hall.


What I take issue with is an attitude of "Your not Jedi enough" being solidified into rules.

As an example, I happen to applaud and follow many of the personal choices Hannigan has made as far as his path of Jediism is concerned. Mostly because I had already come to them myself and have been practicing them on my own. But I do not agree with what appears to be his attitude that his definition is the gold standard that should define what a Jedi is.

This site should remain a place for personal development, open to all. The more labels we affix the less potential is available.