What is TOTJO?

Oneiros wrote: ... thus we cannot just accept everyone...

I find this to be counter to the professed teachings real-world Jedi adhere to. We can accept everyone. We're choosing not to. The only person who can truly decide if someone is a Jedi is the Jedi in question. None of the rest of our opinions matter, and by showing an intolerance to different viewpoints inside the Temple, we would rapidly become a cult rather than a place of learning.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Socialization has its place but is not for educational purposes.

Not in religion. Religion is a field of study that is focused on how we treat ourselves and how we treat others, so by its very nature, socialization in this Temple is necessarily educational.

steamboat28 wrote:
I find this to be counter to the professed teachings real-world Jedi adhere to. We can accept everyone. We're choosing not to. The only person who can truly decide if someone is a Jedi is the Jedi in question. None of the rest of our opinions matter, and by showing an intolerance to different viewpoints inside the Temple, we would rapidly become a cult rather than a place of learning.

I disagree here. But only because it is not so black and white. Acceptance of people and their experiences and beliefs, yes. An essential. An acceptance of bad behavior that is detrimental to the rest of the members, not a chance.

I can accept that everyone has the right to be and believe whatever they want. but, this is a place that chooses to have certain rules and expectations. You don't go to a restaurant to bring your own food and sit with your naked feet on the table. Why would you come to a temple for Jedi studies and deliberately behave in a destruction and disruptive way.

Acceptance does not mean enabling. Ie, you're allowed to be a jerk, I just dont have to put up with it

steamboat28 wrote:

Oneiros wrote: ... thus we cannot just accept everyone...

I find this to be counter to the professed teachings real-world Jedi adhere to. We can accept everyone. We're choosing not to. The only person who can truly decide if someone is a Jedi is the Jedi in question. None of the rest of our opinions matter, and by showing an intolerance to different viewpoints inside the Temple, we would rapidly become a cult rather than a place of learning.

My only problem with this is that you seem to consider someone a Jedi just because they say, "I'm a Jedi." If someone claims to be Christian but then says that they don't believe that Christ actually died on the cross and that he was not resurrected, then they aren't Christian. If someone claims to be Muslim but doesn't pray and also worships Allah's wife and daughter from Pre-Islamic pagan Arab traditions, then they aren't actually Muslim. I don't think someone can just come into a religion believing whatever they want and still be considered part of that religion. We can accept everyone for who they are, but not necessarily as Jedi.

I don't think that excluding people who do not believe as Jedi do will turn us into a cult. If we just let anyone in and let them bring in whatever ideas they want and accept it all, then being a Jedi will be reduced to just being a really really really accepting person. If that were the case then regardless of someone's dedication to spiritual growth, their intellect, or their moral compass they could call themselves a Jedi as long as they just accept everyone for who they are. I just started the IP so I am not the authority on what a Jedi is, but I was under the impression that a Jedi was not simply a nice person, but that they were mindful, balanced, and dedicated. If a person's character is lacking all of those things but they accept everyone for who they are, are they actually a Jedi?

Oneiros wrote: My only problem with this is that you seem to consider someone a Jedi just because they say, "I'm a Jedi." If someone claims to be Christian but then says that they don't believe that Christ actually died on the cross and that he was not resurrected, then they aren't Christian.

The problem with this argument is that it hinges on definitions we don't have yet, as a community. It's easy to point at someone who doesn't believe Christ died on the cross for the remission of sins, or refuses to follow his teachings, and say "they're not a Christian." Why? Because the definition of Christianity, in Christian scriptures, revolves around the Christ. That's an easy pick, it's rather black-or-white at that point, on that issue.

Jediism doesn't have that. At all. There is no concensus among the Jedi community except an eternally vague "belief in the Force."

steamboat28 wrote: The problem with this argument is that it hinges on definitions we don't have yet, as a community. It's easy to point at someone who doesn't believe Christ died on the cross for the remission of sins, or refuses to follow his teachings, and say "they're not a Christian." Why? Because the definition of Christianity, in Christian scriptures, revolves around the Christ. That's an easy pick, it's rather black-or-white at that point, on that issue.

Jediism doesn't have that. At all. There is no concensus among the Jedi community except an eternally vague "belief in the Force."

And that is exactly what brought about this thread. We have people coming here, promoting ideas and beliefs that are viewed by the vast majority as un-Jedi (if we can use that term) and then they complain about intolerance. We have a code, doctrine, maxims, teachings, and we have the myth. Perhaps it's time for the leaders of the various parts of the community to get together and iron out the details.

Oneiros wrote:

steamboat28 wrote: The problem with this argument is that it hinges on definitions we don't have yet, as a community. It's easy to point at someone who doesn't believe Christ died on the cross for the remission of sins, or refuses to follow his teachings, and say "they're not a Christian." Why? Because the definition of Christianity, in Christian scriptures, revolves around the Christ. That's an easy pick, it's rather black-or-white at that point, on that issue.

Jediism doesn't have that. At all. There is no concensus among the Jedi community except an eternally vague "belief in the Force."

And that is exactly what brought about this thread. We have people coming here, promoting ideas and beliefs that are viewed by the vast majority as un-Jedi (if we can use that term) and then they complain about intolerance. We have a code, doctrine, maxims, teachings, and we have the myth. Perhaps it's time for the leaders of the various parts of the community to get together and iron out the details.

I doubt it would happen....

We are too "open" they (others) have thus far been too restrictive..

And I checked the others out before committing here too... and again after my knighthood... I'm most comfortable here...

We tried to be more restrictive, and everyone got upset... lol..

Which is awesome....

My point was, if we are here to help others along the Jedi path, then what was wrong with a little distance between the learning, and the socializing? Which can contain lessons, don't get me wrong... lol...

But, perhaps I want other Jedi (member through master) opinions, and don't really care what a non-jedi says? Where I'm not having to defend myself from thoughts I'm not prepared to defend... Thoughts that I need help finalizing, before someone picks it apart with my inadequacies, lol...

So a forum for everyone, socializing and debate, but maybe group discussions for growth too with like minded folks only... Am I going to lose anything bybnot getting opposing views? Maybe, maybe not...

Opinions vary...

Wescli, probably my best friend here, and I don't agree on every point, but we do a lot too...

So, the "everyone thinking the same" is the same generalization that saying "the guests are trouble makers" is....

At least I think so...

This might not be as sticky a question as it seems. If we are talking about socialization, that happens primarily in the forum, does it not? In general discussion? There may be much to learn, but reading discussion forums should not be consideed training on its own.

Certainly, the journals are in the forum, but they are not a place for open discussion. And I would find training that takes place primarily in the journal unsatisfying. One would hope the training was more personal. Put the emphasis on sincere, one to one training, let a civil forum go where it may.

To that end, the two need not interfere with each other much.

As for defining Jedi, that is precisely what we are doing all the time. We do it over time. We do it one training, one act of service, one infantile fit, one pointless exercise in purposeful misunderstanding, one splendid moment of insight at a time. We talk about 20 years as if that was history. Short term thinking. For reference, the Nicene Creed was written in 325 CE. There is no rush.

The jabs. The slights. The attempts to make right. All of it. We are helping to define the term Jedi right now. We are Jedi. For better or worse, this, right here, is how Jedi behave, what we are.

Perhaps, be careful.

I won't try and give a definition of success but I can give a guaranteed recipe for failure. Try to please everybody.

If The Order tries to be everything to everyone it will become nothing for anyone. And that's true even within the smaller subset of people who call themselves Jedi or aspire to be Jedi.

So do I understand this person correctly, that she complains that we permit those to be heard who are not here to "learn and to grow", after which she goes on to tell us how she finds the views of the Sith (which, she uses as an example than can easily be replaced by any other not 100% conforming position to that of the Jedi) "probably don't count" for the development of a Jedi?

I know she opposed the learning and growing to socializing rather than to staying in one's comfort zone, but I just have to ask... because... y'know... self-awareness... What would one have to say in order to be more hypocritical still?

:laugh: