Jedi and Drugs

self honesty is the first and most important requisite for personal development

dependence is unhealthy

Wescli Wardest wrote: I didn’t think I was being disrespectful at all. Some of the things we seek to discover here is the unmasking of common false hoods and unlearning the lies we have been strapped with and handle our self with every day.

From my experience with drugs they are not reality nor do they show us reality. And as surprising as it may be to some, I do have a bit of experience with drugs. I do have a past after all.

If/when you learn to repeat your result without the aid of outside influence, just what comes from your internal connection to what is, please let me know about it. I would love to hear the comparison to what you experienced and what you then found.

I will tell you now that I have never duplicated anything I ever experienced while under the influence. But what I have found now is far more real and obtainable. I do not believe I am being rude or disrespectful at all… just honest. I did not intend to hurt your feelings when I wrote it or posted it and thought what I did write was rather cut and dry. Based off what I have experienced and learned. I’m sorry your feelings were hurt but I am not sorry for saying what I said. And I wish you well in your journey to find what you’re looking for.

My feelings are far from hurt, however it does not change the fact that I find your attempt at invalidating my experiences disrespectful and your attitude arrogant. But hurt my feelings is something only a select few could ever do.
I accept that this discussion will come no further as we are simply too far from eachother in our views for it to have any purpose.

Wescli Wardest wrote: I didn’t think I was being disrespectful at all. Some of the things we seek to discover here is the unmasking of common false hoods and unlearning the lies we have been strapped with and handle our self with every day.

From my experience with drugs they are not reality nor do they show us reality. And as surprising as it may be to some, I do have a bit of experience with drugs. I do have a past after all.

If/when you learn to repeat your result without the aid of outside influence, just what comes from your internal connection to what is, please let me know about it. I would love to hear the comparison to what you experienced and what you then found.

I will tell you now that I have never duplicated anything I ever experienced while under the influence. But what I have found now is far more real and obtainable. I do not believe I am being rude or disrespectful at all… just honest. I did not intend to hurt your feelings when I wrote it or posted it and thought what I did write was rather cut and dry. Based off what I have experienced and learned. I’m sorry your feelings were hurt but I am not sorry for saying what I said. And I wish you well in your journey to find what you’re looking for.

Hence the problem with " In my experience" Again, it levels the playing field, as we all can say that.

For or against drugs. Or anything else. There is a Jedi on youtube that thinks the wind is telekinesis at work and hes not high.

Some have seen bigfoot stone sober...

More real, attainable, etc, well, if you were me and I were you, my clothes wouldnt fit.

Personal experience, that is, in the realm of science, but in most testimony, is regarded as the least reliable source of anything.

Interesting that we all claim it( Even I, in this thread, however its unreliability is the reason I usually refrain, and in this medium, its even more unreliable)

However, more and more studies in a much more objective setting, have done nothing but proven that drugs, as recreation and medicine, well, many are simply operating on old bias and propaganda.

OB1Shinobi wrote: self honesty is the first and most important requisite for personal development

dependence is unhealthy

So is extremism.

You went right to dependence, ,and a lack of self honesty,which would be addiction, which is a worst case scenario.

Again, research proves this is largely not the case with drug use.

Addiction has been more and more proven as a socio-economic issue than anything.

I wonder what this guy can say hes attained in his personal experience, and I am sure most would claim he is on drugs, but sadly, no, and this is but one video of "Personal, attainable, real,etc"

Delusion, self-denial, etc, are hardly the realm of narcotics.

All you need to see, is too much T.V.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycSZnykYw-E

I am not going to say people should or shouldn't do drugs. Personally I don't, but that is because I can't. I have done almost every drug that exists, and I'm not saying that out of pride or shame. I have to deal with the results of both an opiate and benzodiazepine addiction. I think if people decide to do drugs, they should take time time to research the drugs. Researching a drug should include exactly what this drug does to your body, whether or not it has the potential for physical or mental addiction, what the laws surrounding the chemical are in your location, and information about dosage to help prevent overdoses. There is no such thing as a safe drug, whether it be legal or illegal. If drugs are something that a person has decided to do, then that is their decision. Personally the decisions I have made about drugs have ruined aspects of my life, and I have been hospitalized for an overdose, and I barely lived through it. I spent time in a rehab facility. I believe in harm reduction. If someone reading this has made the decision to or already does drugs, and wants help quitting, or wants to know more about ways to lessen the impact of a drug on our body, please contact me. I will not judge, I will not try to force you to quit, all I want is to help you be safe. And if a person who doesn't do drugs wants to know more about how to help keep someone who does drugs safe, please also contact me. I have only experience, but I will help as I can. I can also give contact information for other resources to help.

Khaos wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: self honesty is the first and most important requisite for personal development

dependence is unhealthy

So is extremism.

You went right to dependence, ,and a lack of self honesty,which would be addiction, which is a worst case scenario.

Again, research proves this is largely not the case with drug use.

Addiction has been more and more proven as a socio-economic issue than anything.

i will say this; if i were writing the manual there would be a chapter set aside to address the situation of ritual use/shamanic use - intelligently prepared and organized use of psychotropics has a long history of producing powerful and life changing results

but in that chapter i would make it very clear that we are not talking about dropping gel tabs and mitsubishis and playing around all night with glow sticks and vapo rub

im not saying that those situations have no value whatsoever, but that is not the same thing as a peyote ceremony or ayahusca ritual by a long shot

and i do acknowledge the distinction between use and abuse

and im not pushing the point that its "wrong" to do drugs

what i am standing on is this; a jedi should hold him/herself to a certain standard and getting trashed on a regular basis because ....(whatever someones reasoning may be) is generally going to be below that standard
and im pretty confident we all understand the truth of what im saying here

i jump right to addiction because it is the issue of addiction that i feel is most important for me to speak about

if one is not under the thumb of addiction then one is perfectly ok with maintaining sobriety, as a general rule

andthe exceptions to that rule would be exactly that - exceptions
rarities

you would generally want to sharpen your focus and mental clarity and heighten your physical senses and mindfulness

the full extent of the position i am taking here is that a jedi must be wholly honest with him or her self about their behavior, and dedicated to the effort of bringing the best of themself to bear in every situation (i claim spiritual progress here, not spiritual perfection)

if you consistently maintain that standard then you will solve a lot of problems, simply by the fact of them never becoming problems to begin with

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EDIT

imo
a jedi should strive to be alert and mindful at all times

not just so that they will be useful for other people when something happens - but because that is a huge part of developing the state of mind which makes one into a jedi to begin with

Hence the problem with " In my experience" Again, it levels the playing field, as we all can say that.

Personal experience, that is, in the realm of science, but in most testimony, is regarded as the least reliable source of anything.

Seeing how we are neither conducting a test or experiment but exchanging ideas and opinions I see no reason why my personal experience would be considered less valid. Unless you can show me something published stating statistical or empirical data or measurable results as to what my opinion should be I can’t imagine what a better source would be.

Personal testimony… experiences that have helped to shape each of our lives; where would you have someone’s opinion come from? People that do research about the product they’re selling? People that do research about something they don’t want, or think is bad? People that do research to prove that something is good?

No thank you. I’ll do my own thinking and form my own opinions if you don’t mind. I’ll look into things, research and let the culmination of all that plus a lifetime of experience help to shape my thoughts on something. I don’t need someone that has an agenda telling me what I should think. And I would hope you don’t either.


I haven’t said that drugs are bad or that no one should do drugs or anything else that seems to be the old bias or propaganda. I stated how that in “my opinion”, “In a world of illusions and self-deception why would anyone try to convince themselves and others that the chemically induced state of illusion and delusion gained them any benefit?”

To those that have taken the time to go through even some of the IP that would probably make at least a little sense seeing how we discover that almost all people have learned to be genuine fakes and that the masks we were are for as much our benefit as the people around us we intend to deceive with them whether on a subconscious or conscience level. We also learn how perception determines reality and that in turn develops not only how we see the world but how we see ourselves and our interaction in the universe. And of course anyone could make an assumption, but why do that when you have years of first hand evidence that most people are not going to honestly look at something that they may not like especially when it is themselves, and argue to the side of instant gratification over long term discipline.

There is the entirety of the Doctrine that describes the tolerances of Jediism and could easily lead people to believe that Drug use would and should be “okay”, that is not frowned upon, by TotJO members. And there is all of the lessons and teaching which show us how and urge us to live a life that by most standards could very well be considered sober.

So like Yoda talking about Luke, we could say that drug use should not be Luke’s motivation while if he happens to do it we’re not going to kick him out of the order.

So I've been thinking some more about this, I wanted to make sure I had something worth contributing since this topic has gone a little dead.

Alethea, I've enjoyed this discussion and your argument is very compelling. While talking to you about this I was always a little uneasy, because the thing of it is I really understand the position you are advocating and feel a little odd arguing against, what one might consider to be, a very strong moral position lol.

Fortunately I think I've found the right words to express my reservations and why I disagree with your premise that Jedi should enact a blanket ban on becoming intoxicated or getting high.

So let's give it a go!

To clear up any possible misunderstandings:

Alethea Thompson wrote: The Hero's Journey is a facet. A piece to the puzzle. But to fully be a part of the Jedi Path (even by the standards at Temple of the Jedi Order) you have to adopt the philosophy that you are going to do your best to live by the Doctrine. Without that Doctrine, you're just someone that enjoys the experience of a Hero's Journey, and find value in what you're learning from it. But you don't need to be a Jedi to find value in the Hero's Journey. You can be, literally, anything and live out the Hero's Journey.

Absolutely 100% agree with you here. What makes someone a Jedi at the Temple is their understanding, acceptance, and commitment to the Doctrine (discounting any bureaucratic requirements). But the Doctrine is the result of the training one receives at the Temple rather than the training itself; the Doctrine is normally the "go to" place for informing oneself of the sort of person a Jedi aspires to be, but relying only on the Doctrine for one's justification is spiritually and intellectually lazy.

The Doctrine is like a large field, people can stand anywhere in it and be considered a Jedi, but there are boundaries. The Doctrine is also a living document which does change over time as the Temple matures and grows and incorporates new ideas and new lessons.

Let's consider this debate from another perspective. Alethea I do not know if you are a vegetarian/vegan but one could probably make an incredibly strong argument as to why absolutely every Jedi should avoid meat/dairy products. One could probably make a much stronger case for this than for your proposition on grounds of compassion, empathy, environment and justice.

So should all Jedi be vegan? They probably should, but this is poles apart from "All Jedi have to be vegan". And this is the crux of the argument, this difference between whether someone should do something or whether someone has to do something.

The thing of it is that Jediism as we teach it at the Temple is meant to be an accessible way of life for everybody, this means there will be many varied Jediisms one will encounter when one comes here rather than just some systematically prescribed behaviour.

Not everyone who comes to this Temple is capable of living as a nun or monk, the Temple isn't here to become an exclusive training academy which opens its doors only to those who are able to live up to the ideals and live with a regime of rules. The Temple is here for the person who has to work two jobs to make ends meet, or the student studying for their qualifications, or the stay-at-home parent trying to look after their dependents, or the person who is seeking a place of refuge to heal after some unfortunate life experience.

So yeah lets cater to those seeking an ascetic Jediism, but let's not shut the door on all those who are seeking a less "austere" Jediism.

If there is a choice between ramping up the requirements people must meet if they wish to become members, or keeping the requirements down to be able to open our doors to as many people as possible then I would choose the latter.

There are many things we probably all ought to do in our lives (FYI I'm about 90% vegan, I just have to get rid of the last remnants of chocolate and sweets ), but at the same time the reality of world is that many people aren't able to make these commitments so why try to force them to?

Should we suggest ways one can better live their lives in accordance with the Doctrine and the Temple's teachings? Sure of course we should, but we shouldn't be expecting everyone to keep to them all the time.

"Jedi ain't perfect"

Alethea Thompson wrote: We also encourage people to get out into the world, know the world for what it is. That can be social, or it could be through the lens of connecting with the environment.

Alcohol and drugs (of all kinds) are a common part of the world "as it is". What about connecting with others and the world through the lens of intoxication or being high?

Indeed its not outside of the realm of imagination for some Jedi to actually use perception altering substances as 'sacrement' to connect to what they might perceive as the Force... perhaps it might be coined the darkside of the Force though LOL, as inducing artificial elevations of a substance for effect does cause imbalance IMO. As I mentioned before, Yoda sent Luke into the noxious cave to trip out on the 'darkside'. Would it be 'wrong' to use the label of darkside for such things??
:whistle:
Give a new meaning to grey Jedi :lol:
... and of course Sith could be those folk who really delve into the melting of the mind. :huh:

Just kidding... I think all of that is a bad idea. I think its better not to bother with such surface judgementalism, and instead see the person not the label (whether its your label or theirs).