Jedi and Drugs

As it were, I have at the same time too much and nothing to say about this ...

I've had a quite detailed conversation with Akkarin about this during the morning, which I'm sure he'll tell you something about in a following bit of writing.

The only thing I'll say to you about it now is this : there is no "the" Jedi way, even if it is one's own. This is another example of one's thoughts about what is virtuous or valiant becoming a spiritual authority which is often just as tyrannical and deceptive as one that is imposed by another. They often come back to the same sources, as one is much more conditioned into one's values - or what one is inculcated to value - than discovering them through a healthy equilibrium of intro- and outro-spection.

For those who enjoy with relative impunity "recreational" drug use : be very careful about what is true and what you think you might know about addictions. Now, many feel that the "addict" is someone who gets all strung-out and sells one's own mother to get what they need to use. It is really much more insidious than that. First, it is the only disease that tells you that you don't have it. It is not a 'mental' illness, but one of many psycho-physical processes in concert. One does not have to be destitute or using all the time to be "addicted" ; it is when the compulsion to use a product to "tune in" to "zone out" or to just "participate" in such things with others who do is favoured over one's own intuition and reason which both would point to such behaviour not being a very good idea. It comes to pass also that despite one's best intentions to not, one ends up doing it anyway when the opportunities or incitations arise. If this happens, it could be a very trustworthy warning that one is not "in control" of one's own behaviour. (Remember, it is a condition that tells you you don't have it ... ! You are not using your "free will" at this stage.)

I have some experience in this matter, so don't hesitate to come talk to me about this.

@Alethea Thompson: You've had some nasty, horrible experiences with drugs and combined with D.A.R.E. you seem to only see the negative effects of drug abuse. Not use, mind you, but abuse. It's Plato's Cave, you're only seeing the shadows on the wall but the actual reality is much more complex than that. But with your experiences I can understand why you're against drug use. However, I don't believe for one second in the 'just say no' ideology because even for a 5th grader the idea you're presenting them is in direct contradiction with the world they see. They're smart enough to figure out that something is not right when you tell them all these horror stories yet they see people voluntarily ingest and actively search for drugs, some even promoting it. Hence the facts doesn't add because if it actually were as bad as you claim, then why would people actively seek out these experiences? A 5th grader is smart enough to see through the inconsistency in those two realities.

Concerning being available and ready to act, would that entail never being allowed to turn off your phone? Or going further away than you can return within a reasonable time? In both cases you wouldn't be available, wouldn't be able to actively react to an emergency.

Legality of a drug has never concerned me, nor has legality of anything else as I deal with what is right or wrong rather than what's legal and illegal. Does the law keep me from randomly stealing other people's possessions? No, it doesn't. I don't do it because it's wrong, it hurts other people. The same goes for so many other things. Do I as a pedestrian abide to a red light in the middle of the night when there's not a soul in sight (and thus no danger for anyone, myself included)? No, I don't because it poses no threat to anyone for me to ignore it.
Keep in mind that majority of the most heinous, atrocious acts of war and genocide in human history was done so with the law in hand. When the Nazis occupied Denmark in 1940 thousands rallied around the Resistance here. Was it legal? No, the penalty was death. Was it right? Hell yes, it was right. Do not ever confuse law and moral, those two things have nothing to do with eachother and are in many cases mutually exclusive and contradictory to eachother.

Whenever I used drugs I was already unavailable to people. I've rarely smoked weed before sundown and as a general rule I had to have my chores done before doing so, whether it was work, school or home related. Select friends were informed if I was to engage in LSD or other time consuming drugs. That way they knew both not to call me and when to call me. So far not one has been forced to call me because I know what I'm doing, I know my limits, I know my drugs and my suppliers.

Drugs aren't for everyone, I acknowledge that and because of it I have never engaged in any coercion regarding drugs. When I used to host parties there was always a wide selection of drugs due to the friends I had at the time and new people were always offered but anyone who said "I don't do drugs" was never asked again. They weren't asked because we wanted them to do drugs, it was just a natural part of the party so in that sense it was the same as offering them a beer or a soda. This approach was an eye opener to a lot of people, I later learned.

On my path in life drugs has done good things for me, far more than bad. When I suffered severe insomnia for many years, cannabis helped me get some rest from time to time without having to resort to synthetic sleep aides. Psilocybin and LSD opened my mind in ways I couldn't imagine and revealed to me the true potential of the human being, our connection to Nature and our place in it. It made me understand it in ways that I hadn't even imagined before that. Mild empathogens (methylone, mostly) made me a more tolerant person and a better listener, making me understand (truly understand) that people follow very different paths in life, even though it's not always obvious.
Does this means I encourage the use of drugs? No, it doesn't. I encourage everyone to find out what the right thing is for them to do. It might be drugs. It might be extreme workout. Or meditation. It might be paintball. Or even eating chocolate pudding without using a spoon in a pillow fort at the age of forty. If it makes you a better person, if it broadens your world then I'm all for it. Just don't try to hinder me walking my path.

In the past year I've smoked cannabis on five, maybe six occasions and haven't used psychedelics for years so it's not like I'm writing this Hunter Thompson-style)

Yes, you have listed a lot of bad experiences with drugs, but this is selective. Were I to be so inclined I could come up with several scenarios and people who didnt crash and burn.

Some people abuse fast food.

We dont say it is un-jedi like to have hamburgers.

People, humans, become addicted to a lot of things to the point of self destruction.

Were we to start throwing out all the things humans do that are self-destructive, or potentially so, you would have no Jedi.

Then, if the case is to be available to help at all times,well, you best go old republic then.

No spouse, no kids, no distractions whatsoever.

Seems extreme?

Exactly.

I assume that people are able to get there lives in order enough to handle other responsibilities and be a Jedi.

Still, instead of saying "no attachements" you are being selective in them, which is worse, and next to impossible given the diversity in previous life experience, paths, etc and in some cases unwillingness to cooperate in regards to what it is to be a Jedi.

So ultimately, they are not a full Jedi in your eyes, but then, you have all the authority of what exactly?

None in a real sense.

The Jedi path is an arbitrary one.

As is any one persons opinion, authority, and choices.

Which is its strength and weakness as a path.

Also, you seem to have a personal axe to grind with drugs in and of itself, which in regards to clouded judgement on things and mindfulness, I would say you have your own.

No Attachments? Jedi are full of attachments (even if you read Shatterpoint, Mace explains that he has an attachment to the Jedi Order) there is a very large difference between overcoming them, and shoving them away completely. Those in emergency series are available when they need to be, regardless of having a family. They do put themselves on the line, and recognize that it is a sacrifice they are willing to make in order to make the world a better place. Some use their family as a motivation and purpose to find direction in their life. I do believe that there are Jedi find their reason for improving the world because of their attachments to people in general, some might find it solely for their family.

That's why we alter the Jedi Philosophy for real life. It's not practical to live without emotion.

My way isn't the only way. It's why I stated that not all orders have a stance. I take part in exactly 3 that DO have a clear stance against it, but I take part in a number of others that do not. It is my view, and it is simply one facet of what I would require of anyone I trained to the status of knight or master.

Alethea Thompson wrote: No Attachments? Jedi are full of attachments (even if you read Shatterpoint, Mace explains that he has an attachment to the Jedi Order) there is a very large difference between overcoming them, and shoving them away completely. Those in emergency series are available when they need to be, regardless of having a family. They do put themselves on the line, and recognize that it is a sacrifice they are willing to make in order to make the world a better place. Some use their family as a motivation and purpose to find direction in their life. I do believe that there are Jedi find their reason for improving the world because of their attachments to people in general, some might find it solely for their family.

That's why we alter the Jedi Philosophy for real life. It's not practical to live without emotion.

My way isn't the only way. It's why I stated that not all orders have a stance. I take part in exactly 3 that DO have a clear stance against it, but I take part in a number of others that do not. It is my view, and it is simply one facet of what I would require of anyone I trained to the status of knight or master.

So then ultimately, what is the point of mentioning it publicly?

Save it for those you train, as it is the only people it would really have any relevance to.

As aside from those three orders, in which it would go without saying apparently, the other ones obviously have a more open stance, and hence, the responses will be predictable.

Also, again Mace had an attachment, sure, and still condemned Anakin for his, and so it seems the hypocrisy of the fiction has not been adapted, but adopted.

Is it any wonder why people constantly create there own orders ad nauseam?

I also know plenty in the emergency services that are available when they need to be, even though they may drink or do drugs.

Even those in emergency services have time off to themselves Alethea.

a jedi shouldnt use drugs to connect with the force ....but take me for example i smoke pot ....not because i need to but because i enjoy it ...it dosent grant me any force boon but it allows me to examine my own thoughts from an angle id otherwise overlook ....and depending on the drug i addvocate its use ......talkin bout pot here not crack just to clear it up

Why? Why not? Is there ever a reason to say something beyond "Because people might like the prospective, it might help them better form their own opinions having a different type of argument".

As for your emergency services that do drugs and are available to help others. Responsible drinking is fine, it doesn't mean that they are ALWAYS available. If they are over the .08 limit (in most areas, some have a lower rate), they legally cannot do anything. You might let them, that doesn't make you or them right, or responsible in allowing it. And if they are illegally taking drugs (or abusing them for that matter), they don't need to be on a team that responds to emergencies. That's my stance, you're not changing it- and what you have just told me is that while you are a great nurse, you should never be put in a position of hiring other nurses.

Why? Why not? Is there ever a reason to say something beyond "Because people might like the prospective, it might help them better form their own opinions having a different type of argument".

This is not a new argument, or prospective, either from you, or the community. As was put forth in the Rant thread, there is one a week. I know every ones stance, including my own. Plenty of reasons for why not there.

As for your emergency services that do drugs and are available to help others. Responsible drinking is fine, it doesn't mean that they are ALWAYS available. If they are over the .08 limit (in most areas, some have a lower rate), they legally cannot do anything. You might let them, that doesn't make you or them right, or responsible in allowing it. And if they are illegally taking drugs (or abusing them for that matter), they don't need to be on a team that responds to emergencies. That's my stance, you're not changing it- and what you have just told me is that while you are a great nurse, you should never be put in a position of hiring other nurses.

No one is ALWAYS available to help others. As a mother, you wont always be able to.

As for what people do in there off time, well, whether or not they should be on a team that responds to emergencies, they have saved lives, and one day, since your all about the what ifs it could be yours.

If they saved your life, or your childs, would you reall care if in there off time they like to smoke weed?

I said they drink, and or, do drugs, I didnt say they did so on the job.

Also, Jedi, as a percentage, I wonder how many have the competence to help others as first responders, and of that, how many are ALWAYS available.

Jedi is not a job, lol, and its requirements and protocols are not half, or half of half as stringent as those that do work in emergency services, because regardless of your personal opinion, you still have to do what they say as opposed to what you think.

Because there training goes across the boards, do to a scientific method and other statistical outcomes that point to the majority favor.

Your priorities are poor at best Ally, and factor in the real world or the people in it not at all.

and what you have just told me is that while you are a great nurse, you should never be put in a position of hiring other nurses.

Lol, you act as if I havent been.

Based on what?

Nurses get drug tested, so if they are hired, at the time of there hiring, they are clean.

Not just a urine test either, but blood, and done right in the lab.

Of course, not all drugs are like marijuana, which stays in your system quite a bit longer.

Most of my information is after the fact, and there performance, as a nurse, on the job, well, while some nurses have been caught with drug problems( not localized to me in time of hiring, or my hospital, but all over the world) they are fired, and they can no longer practice, though our hospital gives the chance of a rehab, rehire, one more chance type of thing.

Drug problems meaning they HAVE interfered with work. For those that dont bring it to work, if I do know, I let it go, because there still saving more lives than the majority of Jedi, thats for sure. Nor is there performance compromised, as they are sober in that time.

So please, get off your high horse, and given who I have seen that has been knighed within the Jedi community, whether you were in the position or not, how about taking care of your own neck of the woods before trying to act like you know what your talking about in regards to mine.

Alethea Thompson wrote: As for your emergency services that do drugs and are available to help others. Responsible drinking is fine, it doesn't mean that they are ALWAYS available. If they are over the .08 limit (in most areas, some have a lower rate), they legally cannot do anything. You might let them, that doesn't make you or them right, or responsible in allowing it.

I haven't had alcohol in around five years so a blood/alcohol level of .05 would leave me quite intoxicated but you would still be comfortable with me helping someone in that condition because it's under the legal limit?
But if I'd used LSD three weeks prior and was otherwise completely sober I shouldn't be allowed to help?

Alethea Thompson wrote: And if they are illegally taking drugs (or abusing them for that matter), they don't need to be on a team that responds to emergencies. That's my stance, you're not changing it- and what you have just told me is that while you are a great nurse, you should never be put in a position of hiring other nurses.

You seem to be under the impression that people who use illegal drugs are using them all the time and that people are forever warped and skewed in their views. I'm sorry to it say so bluntly but that's an extremely narrowminded and uninformed view on an otherwise complex topic.

The legal limit, where ever I am, is unfortunately the only thing I could hold you to. At that point, the only thing I could hold against you is if you were acting a fool. The law believes that at .08 (in most places) your ability to function with sound decision making and reactionary time goes out the window.

That's really only if there isn't an SOP stating that if you've had a drop of alcohol you're off. I would imagine most do, but if they do not, you rely on the law. It's a long list of things, but ultimately if you're relying on the law to determine whether or not someone can be on a scene as an emergency services rep, then someone dropped the ball in their operating procedures. :laugh:

And I'm not under that impression, the limit is only on certain personnel. If I'm working an average desk job, and the person sitting next to me likes to get lit after work, that's on them.

Khaos, you'd be surprised. In the capacity that I can help others, I am always available to help, even when I've got my son with me. Most of the interactions I have are with people via text, voice or some other form of social media. When I'm out and about, I am available because I have the ability to get creative. Can I always evaluate a casualty if I have Makai with me? No, but I have a phone, and I have enough training to direct people around me if they are present to do what they need to do.

Being available means being creative. You get that best by being on top of your game. Having the ability to multi-task. I'm always available to help, I just might not be the right person to help- but I can get you to the right person.

Alethea Thompson wrote: And I'm not under that impression, the limit is only on certain personnel. If I'm working an average desk job, and the person sitting next to me likes to get lit after work, that's on them.

Where's the difference? If an EMT is off work it shouldn't matter what they do. Others would be on call.

So I've been thinking some more on this topic...

Alethea your argument seems to be Jedi should be available to help people and one cannot do this if they are intoxicated or high. Ok sure that makes sense.

But wait... hang on a minute... you seem to be arguing a One-Size-Fits-All idea of being a Jedi.

If a Jedi is a Hero on their own Hero's Journey then part of that very definition means one's life will be a journey, shaped by one's individuality, of self-discovery and exploration. There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all in Jediism. There is no Jedi "Path", there are only "Paths".

I think insisting Jedi must fit any particular, and very strict, criteria reduces the very value being a Jedi offers people - an outlet to escape from a prescription of social expectation and the imposition of required adherence to practices and beliefs we disagree with from authorities who demand obedience because they think they know what's best for us.

The requirement that Jedi "must always be able and ready to help people" is as silly as the requirement that Jedi "must learn martial arts". This isn't because helping people is wrong, it isn't because learning martial arts is wrong, it's because insisting everyone must eat pistachio ice cream despite there being a range of flavours is wrong. I mean seriously... pistachio? :sick:

There are as many ways of being a Jedi as there are Jedi. The Jedi in this temple are a like-minded community of people who share common beliefs and ideals and who value the variance our mutually beneficial journeys of Self-exploration bring to ourselves and others.

How do you practice being a Jedi Alethea? Being a Jedi for you means being available to help people at any given moment in time? Great!

Do I help people? Absolutely I do! But helping other people by being available at any given moment in time is not one of the criteria of my Jedi Path. I don't live each moment wondering "what if", I live each moment.

Just a personal opinion, and apologies if others have already posted this before, but Graham Hancock is very good on this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w

So what do we do for those who like drugs and those that don't like drug. About drug for spirit lol. But why should we believe that only drug can open up the spirit or all the way to the force . can't say that plants and drugs are made on purpose but since it's all for nature drug'S one can't say it all the way and all the time illegal for everyone . and why should we repress dose who like that ? hum .

We are all probably Jedi on the streets and Sith in the sheets, so I guess we have to be realistic about what we might be capable of at any moment in time and be mindful of compensating for any reductions to ones capacity to perceive accurately, decide effectively and act appropriately. I wouldn't advocate a blanket ban on all things which might reduce ones capacity, as I think it would not be genuine - a line would have to be drawn somewhere and that line might very well be in a different place for each individual. I think as Jedi it us up to us to be true to our true self instead.

:blink: :huh: :dry:

Akkarin wrote: So I've been thinking some more on this topic...

Alethea your argument seems to be Jedi should be available to help people and one cannot do this if they are intoxicated or high. Ok sure that makes sense.

But wait... hang on a minute... you seem to be arguing a One-Size-Fits-All idea of being a Jedi.

If a Jedi is a Hero on their own Hero's Journey then part of that very definition means one's life will be a journey, shaped by one's individuality, of self-discovery and exploration. There is no such thing as one-size-fits-all in Jediism. There is no Jedi "Path", there are only "Paths".

Except I don't agree with your assessment that it is JUST about living a Hero's Journey.

3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

11. Jedi are mindful of their thoughts. We recognise the beauty in others and we provide help to those who come seeking it. Through our benevolent actions we strengthen not only ourselves but also our communities. Jedi act without prejudice.

You cannot be mindful of your thoughts if you are under the influence.

10. Jedi serve in many ways. Each action performed, no matter the scale, influences the world. With this in mind Jedi perform each action with peace, caring, love, compassion and humility. So it is that each Jedi improves the world with each deed they perform.

Your actions even under the influence of a substance could lead to anything. By combining this with 3 & 11, you are best able to see where the course of your actions (whatever you do) will take.

14. Jedi are guardians of peace. We believe in helping all those that are in need, in whatever form, to the best of our ability. We recognise that sometimes providing help requires courage in the face of adversity but understand that conflict is resolved through peace, understanding and harmony.

Under the influence, you will not know how to properly act in a situation. You make mistakes, you might get lucky and make the right choices, why risk it?

5. Jedi understand that well-being consists in the physical, the mental and the spiritual. A Jedi trains each to ensure they remain capable of performing their duties to the best of their ability. All of these are interconnected and essential parts of our training in becoming more harmonious with the Force

.

It can be argued that many of the drugs that people engage in for occasional recreational use does not inhibit the physical (unless you're talking about nicotine, I've left nicotine out of the conversation and will continue to do so, not because I've ever smoked it [I haven't], but rather it's status makes it difficult to address. At least with Alcohol I can say "moderation", nicotine...well it's it's own class of discussion, lol), it does inhibit your abilities while your under the influence. During those periods, you cannot be sure what you are experiencing is real or fabricated by the drugs you are taking. You cannot have a fully integrated connection between the physical, mental and spiritual during those times.

I think insisting Jedi must fit any particular, and very strict, criteria reduces the very value being a Jedi offers people - an outlet to escape from a prescription of social expectation and the imposition of required adherence to practices and beliefs we disagree with from authorities who demand obedience because they think they know what's best for us.

We also encourage people to get out into the world, know the world for what it is. That can be social, or it could be through the lens of connecting with the environment.

The requirement that Jedi "must always be able and ready to help people" is as silly as the requirement that Jedi "must learn martial arts". This isn't because helping people is wrong, it isn't because learning martial arts is wrong, it's because insisting everyone must eat pistachio ice cream despite there being a range of flavours is wrong. I mean seriously... pistachio? :sick:

They are completely different arguments. "able and ready" do not mean that you will. "Able and ready" means that you are capable. It's not a requirement to actually act. For some, they might decide to NOT help, because in the long run it would be detrimental. Martial Arts may be completely impractical, but being capable of helping when the need arises, is not impractical at all.

There are as many ways of being a Jedi as there are Jedi. The Jedi in this temple are a like-minded community of people who share common beliefs and ideals and who value the variance our mutually beneficial journeys of Self-exploration bring to ourselves and others.

Going back to a Khaos-esque question: If you here to be nothing more than a self-explorer, are you a Jedi, or are you working on becoming a Jedi?

The Hero's Journey is a facet. A piece to the puzzle. But to fully be a part of the Jedi Path (even by the standards at Temple of the Jedi Order) you have to adopt the philosophy that you are going to do your best to live by the Doctrine. Without that Doctrine, you're just someone that enjoys the experience of a Hero's Journey, and find value in what you're learning from it. But you don't need to be a Jedi to find value in the Hero's Journey. You can be, literally, anything and live out the Hero's Journey.

Alethea Thompson wrote: You cannot be mindful of your thoughts if you are under the influence.

Yes. Yes, you are. You are in fact extremely mindful of your thoughts. You may think a hundred thoughts within seconds or linger on one idea for hours. There's a reason drugs throughout human history has been a part of spiritual journeys, rituals and rites of passage.

Alethea Thompson wrote: It can be argued that many of the drugs that people engage in for occasional recreational use does not inhibit the physical (unless you're talking about nicotine, I've left nicotine out of the conversation and will continue to do so, not because I've ever smoked it , but rather it's status makes it difficult to address. At least with Alcohol I can say "moderation", nicotine...well it's it's own class of discussion, lol), it does inhibit your abilities while your under the influence. During those periods, you cannot be sure what you are experiencing is real or fabricated by the drugs you are taking. You cannot have a fully integrated connection between the physical, mental and spiritual during those times.

Believe me, there's still a clear distinction between reality and fantasy when under the influence of most drugs. Very few compounds are decidedly dissociative and will lead to disintegration from the physical world. The word "hallucinations" is often misused in this context as there are very hallucinating drugs. Even the "bad boys" such as LSD does not produce actual hallucinations, it produces visuals, which can be seen a visual manifestation of an idea but you are fully aware that it is not real. You don't get see dragons in the kitchen and start wondering how they got there but you might imagine them being there and be able to better envisage it. But actual hallucinations are very rare and takes equally rare drugs such as scopolamine or Datura to produce. Luckily, drugs such as these have no recreational value.

If you have never tried mind expanding drugs I will venture the claim that you shouldn't bless or condemn them because it is in a very literal sense a realm which you know nothing about.