The Problem with Black Lives Matter

like I said
it is the choices that you make in life
Hell I grow up with black people nearly all my life with grade school and middle and high school
and some Black people I know Have bills to pay have a job and family and live peaceful lives
and then you got another group of that want to live off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts


and dude it is the same with white folks too. there are white people that Have bills, a job and family and the n you got the red necks with five cars in a yard ve off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts

so, dude, I have seen it all

FTPC wrote: like I said
it is the choices that you make in life
Hell I grow up with black people nearly all my life with grade school and middle and high school
and some Black people I know Have bills to pay have a job and family and live peaceful lives
and then you got another group of that want to live off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts


and dude it is the same with white folks too. there are white people that Have bills, a job and family and the n you got the red necks with five cars in a yard ve off of the government section 8 and who turn out to drug addicts

so, dude, I have seen it all

Believe it or not, I have also grown up with black people. MOST black people I know have bills to pay. MOST have a job and a family. I personally have 7 kids (2 biological, 1 step, and my fiance has 2 sets of twins). Most of these dudes are not providing financial support. But it wouldn't be cool to use my personal experience to say "black men don't take care of their responsibilities". That's a sweeping generalization that simply isn't true.

A lot of "people" are living off the system. A lot of "people" are on drugs. Of course it's the same with white folk too. It's the media that often gives off the impression that it's only black people and other minorities so that whites who are ignorant will be against them, assume they are immoral, assume that they're thugs, and its the RACIAL BIASES of people that not only imagine that blacks are inferior, but that also cause decisions to be made against black people based on these racial biases. And that's when truly through no fault of your own, you can be set up for failure because of the color of your skin. You say its all about the choices you make in life. I disagree. The choices you make are a PART of what happens to you. But it is the choices that OTHER PEOPLE make that also impact your life. You can only control so much. Each person's power is limited. When a cop pulls me over I have to submit to his authority because in that span of time what happens to be is going to be based on his decisions. My decision is honestly to survive the encounter. We each play a part in each other's decisions. As a programmer I'm well aware of how one decision can influence another.

But let's say a woman looks sexy as hell with curves upon curves, long hair, makeup, jewelry, and clothes that fit tightly against her skin. She looks good but is she asking to get raped? Of course not. And if someone rapes her he is literally taking away her decision and she is the victim of his decision. Natives didn't end up on the Trail of Tears because of their own decisions. It was because they were the victims of people who wanted to own the land that they were willing to share.

The same way that a surfer doesn't wake up like "hey, I think I'd like to be shark food today".... still he chooses to surf and there 'could' be a shark nearby, No black person wakes up like "hey, I think I'd like to be shot by a cop or a misguided neighborhood watchdog today. Let me go put on a hoodie"... still we choose to live in a place where these things can happen. And there is a word for it when someone treats you a certain way because of the color of your skin. That word is racism and the word exists, not because the victims somehow choose to be treated this way, but because racists choose to treat people this way. And why? Same reason that slaves weren't given the choice to work. Because some IMMORAL person believes they have the right to abuse others. However, they want to justify it, that is a choice and decision they make because they believe they have the POWER to make it. It's all about corruption.

Furthermore, whites have had significantly more time to get out of bad neighborhoods, to conquer chemical dependence, and more resources to assist in doing so. As a race, whites did not start out on the bottom of society. They didn't start the game in last place. Black people are expected to prevent crime in their own communities, escape poverty unassisted and without resources, start with nothing and overcome all obstacles even when the gatekeeper is locking the door based on skin color. Black people are resilient but the problem is that everyone can't go to the NBA or the NFL. Black athletes overcome huge odds to get those spots. And society encourages those spots for us because that's what they believe we can do. When I was growing up my friends looked to footballs or basketballs as their future. I chose computers and I guess you can say that my choice made the difference. But at the same time we grew up in an environment where not every black family could afford a computer and not everyone could really see science and engineering as a possibility. You're talking about people who have been so marginalized that what we can do is thought to be very limited. The bias of society is drilled into us from an early age. Our teachers drill it into us. Do you think they tell us that we're going to be a great writer one day?

I believe black people can do anything but we are still trying to prove that fact to ourselves. And in reality, there are some neighborhoods where life is so tough that everything around you is pulling you into the same vortex of survival that everyone knows works even though, it too, only works for a handful of people. But the lack of opportunities is so devastating that even though drug dealers often only make minimum wage they see it as the only way. And they were born into that family, in that house, in that hood, that color, where the father is gone and they have 3-4 mouths they have to help feed and too young to be legally employed. No one chooses that. I have to make different choices so that my kids can have better opportunities and so they can make different choices and so they'll even believe me when I tell them they can make different choices. Everyone doesn't have that privilege. Everyone can't be as smart, as strong, as fast, as whatever, as those of us who really make it. This system wasn't designed for us to succeed and only the ones who understand that truly do succeed.

I had intended to post in this topic quite a while back. I actually did a lot of research and had much of what i wanted to say written out, but my life got busy and busier and the discussion moved on. My initial basic positions still pretty much stand:

OB1Shinobi wrote: BLM is nested within an overall SJW culture that makes a virtue of being a victim, refuses personal responsibility, eschews critical thinking and rational dialogue, and ignores key facts and details of every issue they go on about. That is the SJW culture, generally speaking [which BLM is an extension of]

As for BLM specifically, they misrepresent the issue of police brutality,(which is incredibly complicated and affects all citizens) they endorse violence (even though they claim otherwise), engaging in and defending rioting and civil anarchy, and allow members to promote blatantly racist and socially divisive ideology [in other words, it is a fundamentally racist movement]. They treat all shootings of black people by police the same regardless of the circumstances....and though their very name suggests that protecting the lives of black people is their primary aim, they actually ignore the [the most relevant] issues that cause the vast majority of black deaths [and suffering]

Overall my problem with them is that they are making race relations in America worse and not better. I do understand many black people dont see anyone else they believe is speaking for them. Its a conundrum i guess.

I have something to add this to the list of BLM stupidities: https://www.leoweekly.com/2017/08/white-people/

"White people, here are 10 requests from a Black Lives Matter leader

1. White people, if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty.

2. White people, if you’re inheriting property you intend to sell upon acceptance, give it to a black or brown family. You’re bound to make that money in some other white privileged way.

3. If you are a developer or realty owner of multi-family housing, build a sustainable complex in a black or brown blighted neighborhood and let black and brown people live in it for free.

4. White people, if you can afford to downsize, give up the home you own to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

5. White people, if any of the people you intend to leave your property to are racists assholes, change the will, and will your property to a black or brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty.

6. White people, re-budget your monthly so you can donate to black funds for land purchasing.

7. White people, especially white women (because this is yaw specialty — Nosey Jenny and Meddling Kathy), get a racist fired. Yaw know what the fuck they be saying. You are complicit when you ignore them. Get your boss fired cause they racist too.

8. Backing up No. 7, this should be easy but all those sheetless Klan, Nazi’s and Other lil’ dick-white men will all be returning to work. Get they ass fired. Call the police even: they look suspicious.

9. OK, backing up No. 8, if any white person at your work, or as you enter in spaces and you overhear a white person praising the actions from yesterday, first, get a pic. Get their name and more info. Hell, find out where they work — Get Them Fired. But certainly address them, and, if you need to, you got hands: use them.

10. Commit to two things: Fighting white supremacy where and how you can (this doesn’t mean taking up knitting, unless you’re making scarves for black and brown kids in need), and funding black and brown people and their work."

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This is kind of talk is stupid, entitled, racist, and basically it just makes things worse. We either try to end racism altogether or we pick our prefered racist movements and push them forward. I want to end racism altogether and THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. And yes, black people can definitely be racist too, denying that is also an effort at promoting racism. Here is a black woman using her power to insult the group she resents and to instigate further racial hostilities.

Its not an action, its a reaction? Well, my reaction to her reaction is "f**k you lady" lol are you going to tell me that black peoples lousy reactions are ok but my lousy reaction isnt? Guess what kind of reaction that will get lol.
At some point dont we all have to stop REacting, and start taking responsibility for how we choose to ACT?

1) Barack Obama, Colin Powell, Kanye West, Jesse Jackson, and Neil DeGrasse Tyson all have far more institutional power than i do. Could they be racist towards me? Yes.
The dean at a community college can be racist, and for that matter, so can the the professors. So can bus drivers, restaurant managers, and income tax attorneys. Virtually everyone has got some institutional power, even if only a small amount. You can use the institutional power of a job at burger king to get a coworker fired of prevent someone from being hired or even to just spit in someones food if you want. The money that you make at that job (or any other) is one of the most powerful forma of institutional power in any modern society, which can be used for any number of purposes, such as the employment of a lawyer, the opening of a new company, or the creation of a political lobby. Fun question: who has more institutional power, the KKK or the NAACP? (Im not equating them morally)

2) No one of any race gets to run from the police, no matter how scared they are. Its not allowed to run from the cops, its never going to be allowed, and there are obvious, good reasons for that.

3) Unconscious bias is a great a way for people to accuse each other of racism when there isnt any racism. Difficult as it may be to prove sometimes, actual evidence is the standard of proof for everything, including racism. The harvard test has been proven to be unreliable, and the training that has come of it has been shown to make biases WORSE. If youre looking for racism youll see it everywhere, postulating about what might hypothetically be going on in someones unconscious mind is about as useful and reliable at uncovering the truth as drawing straws or playing spin the bottle.

Thanks for your contribution to this discussion. Obviously, the subject is still very much a current event thanks to white supremacy groups and counterprotesters.

I'm not saying anyone does, but please don't ever feel like your opinions matter any less. I value your opinion and your perspective.

I guess my main issue is with the identification of BLM. What is BLM? Who is BLM? Everyone seems to know or assume they know. And because it is natural to judge and to make assumptions, it seems natural that people would exclude themselves from it and therefore more easily see wrongs.

Let me explain what I mean.

I'm black so I'm obviously not a member of any white supremacy group. Are there good white supremists? As much as most members of society want to say no, if we're being honest the answer is not that simple. There is gradation involved. While there is a general ideology of shared hatred, this is learned over time. Many people simply want to belong and feel like there are all these groups in society that they don't or can't fit into. Maybe they even feel threatened by this; as if everyone hates them for much the same reason that people generally don't like the government. Power. And the misuse of power. White men have a greater tendency to be identified with the main sort of conglomeration of power. People fear the police as extentions of that same power. "The Man". And the reason all these other minority groups team up is because of the threat this power poses. By the sheer number of whites the government represents their interests by default. While that's good on one hand, it simultaneously forces everyone else to work together in order to get their needs met (too). So yes, democracy is super great when you're part of the majority. It sucks when you're not.

That's why Black Lives Matter (too).

And because there are a large number of whites who aren't trying to team up because they are voting based on issues concerning, not just thesmelves, but the greater good, this creates a division in the numbers that other whites, who do play identity politics, and who do feel entitled to virtually every benefit of being the majority by virtue of their skin color, feel threatened by. So then they feel the need to team up against the other teams.

Everyone who feels this need; who feels threatened, isn't evil. It's simply easy for those who are "not them" to classify them as such. Of course there are differences. These people already have more influence on the levers of power than anyone else so why should they feel so intimidated by minorities? It's really not "their" country. The people who colonized this country and fought for this country and died for this country didn't do it on behalf of "white" people. They did it on behalf of the people who immigrated here, wanting to be free. So while there is a fundamental misunderstanding about who this country should belong to many KKK members are not truly hateful people. They are part of a club that supports them in their daily struggles.

It's very easy to paint an entire organization with a single brush. And you could say well 90% of them are bad so the other 10% should just get out if they're not bad too. That would be a valid argument and yet... these are their friends and family.

As far as BLM goes it would be silly to suggest that 100% of people who support BLM are model citizens. The media often tries to point out a person's faults as if these faults invalidate their perspective. You're white but you have a perspective on BLM. Should we listen to you or not? That's a political question. You don't have to be black to empathize with what BLM is fighting for. You didn't have to be black to empathize with Martin Luther King or Malcolm X. BLM isn't even 5% bad. So why is the other 99% judged as if it is a terrorist cell? The counter protesters that were ready to fight... those weren't even BLM. That was a different, non-exclusive, group against fascism. They never believed in pure non-violence so you saw how prepared they were. BLM wasn't because they're not a violent movement. The difference should be clear. The fascists and the anti-fascists were wearing protective gear and brandishing weapons.

Malcolm X was FAR more radical than any BLM member. What made the original black panthers radical to this day wasn't any sort of hatred they possessed but rather the lengths they were willing to go to protect their community against the police who were, even way back then, murdering people in the street. Imagine if you lived in Japan and the Japanese kept messing with you? Imagine if random Japanese citizens occassionally saw you walking down the street, stole whatever you were carrying, beat you up, and walked away like nothing happened. Other Japanese people see it but look the other way. Malcolm X had a lot of white people who wanted to join his movement. He said no. Many black groups model themselves after MLK or Malcolm X for the same reasons they had. Perhaps you don't understand those reasons but does that automatically make them racist?

Spellman: Will you work with the so-called “established” civil rights organizations?

Malcolm X: Well, we will work with them in any area and on any objective that doesn’t conflict with our own political, economic, and social philosophy which is black nationalism.

Malcolm X: .... I just don’t go along with—there can be no worker solidarity until there’s first some black solidarity. There can be no white/black solidarity until there’s first some black solidarity. We have got to get our problems solved first and then if there’s anything left to work on the white man’s problems, good, but I think one of the mistakes Negroes make is this worker solidarity thing.

Allow me to translate. Malcolm X was saying that black people have to come together to solve their own problems. He was not a racist. When you start fighting for everyone's issues it dilutes the agenda and then what you started the whole thing to do gets taken over until your interests become secondary. The NAACP has been criticized a lot for this very thing. Why does BLM even exist if we have the NAACP? It is because the NAACP lost a lot of focus through the desire to be more inclusive. To be perfectly honest, black people lost a lot because of the desire for inclusion. Everyone remembers Jackie Robinson, but forgets the entire Negro League that went away so that one man could integrate. The same thing happened with the black economy. We used to be in a better position to take care of our own needs because we supported each other's businesses and our economy grew. Now, most of us cannot get a successful business off the ground and most money is simply absorbed by massive mostly-white corporations. This means that most jobs and opportunities have to come from non-blacks which makes us more dependent. Our youth, sense this dependency and know that their survival depends on it. So if they don't believe they can get a good job or they can't make money fast enough to fee their families many turn to crime. It's not because they're black. It's because of a lack of opportunities where no priority is given to black people so many cannot survive in that scenario. So the funny thing is when a black organization is criticized for not integrating people completely forget how much we've already sacrificed in order to integrate.

One of the main criticism I hear about BLM is the violence in Chicago. Again, this is a political attack because the idea is that what you say doesn't matter as much because of who you have in your party. Oh there are a bunch of people in your party who hate cops to the point of chanting "fry em like bacon"? People want to immediately apply these words to thousands of BLM supporters who weren't there; as well as to the founders of BLM as if every expression of anger is scripted by them in advance.

To this day there is no "White Lives Matter Movement" or "All Lives Matter" movement. There is NO universal movement against the police and their tactics. NONE. There is only BLM an their counter protesters who are protesting BLM. Why? Is it because BLM hates white people? No. Imagine if you were an American soldier fighting for freedom against the British and Japanese people came and protested you because, in THAT fight, you weren't fighting for their country. The idea that everyone has to fight for everyone at every time is a fallacy. When the Allies fought the Nazis and gave the Jews their own state what did they simultaneously do for Muslims? Where were all these counter protesting white people talking about "All lives matter" before when so many unarmed black people were getting murdered? Which one of them were out there raising national awareness?

There are whites who do get shot by the police. However, in 2010 black people were less than 10% of the population. This means that there are so many white people that when a (RELATIVELY) small number of them get murdered unjustly by the police THEY (whites) do not complain as a group. This isn't black people's fault for not noticing or fighting for these people that most whites have never heard of. How many whites even knew there was an issue before BLM came along and they needed to look for reasons to bash it? A lot of people were condemning BLM because they didn't believe there was an issue at all and were showing support for the police!

Also, what you don't see because it isn't easily quantifiable, is the lengths that police sometimes go to disarm a white suspect without killing them. See... its' deeper than just people getting shot. We're talking about racially motivated unfair treatment. We're talking about two different standards. A lot of armed whites get talked down. Some whites were even allowed to "takeover" a government building with guns, daring the police to try and stop them. When black people see those stories our first impression is "man... if that was a black dude he'd be dead by now." I guarantee you that MILLIONS of black people think this. Not hundreds or even thousands. There should, statistically, be a lot less black people getting killed but because we are such a minority population the numbers basically tell us a story we already know. And that is that there is a racial aspect to law enforcement in which black and brown people are targeted by police. And no... our lives do not matter to (all of) them.

Do you really think that a white cop isn't trying to save white lives? Of course they are; whether they are racist or not. That's the default. They exist to serve that majority. The ONLY CASE in which a life doesn't matter to a cop is if that cop hates the race that person belongs to. There is no case in which a white cop shot a white person because he hated their race. ALL cops are taught to protect themselves and to basically shoot first if they feel their lives are in danger. Police are also less threatened by white suspects. Therefore, they're more likely to use non-lethal force. Black cops are an extreme minority in a white police force. Even if they were racists there is absolutely no support or sanction for any police action against white people. For minorities there is absolutely support and sanction for targeting minorities. We've heard this from cops themselves.

Everyone would like to believe that racism is dead or dying but that's not true. Most black people can tell you a story of racism because most of us experience racism multiple times in our lives. If people wanted to protest police shootings in general there was an opportunity to do that both before and after BLM came on the scene. Where was that protest? Where was that national spotlight? It didn't exist. The fact that even the name "Black Lives Matter" is so misunderstood to somehow be against whites shows the obscene level of racism black people are dealing with. No one thought it was necessary to add "too" at the end because no one assumed whites would put "only" at the beginning!

BLM started protesting something more specific and something more heinous than police shootings. If a cop shoots a person who is from the majority one could more easily call that a mistake. Did that white cop intentionally shoot that other white person? Maybe? But it is more likely that they only shot them because they felt like they had to for their own safety or the safety of others. Who's going to protest them for that? Maybe a small group might protest one or two officers who have a violent history. But certainly they weren't targeting white people. Who on earth would actually think that white cops would go out there targeting white people???

This is different.

By introducing the racial component we are NOT simply talking about police shootings at it is really a smack to the face of black people to take something that is obviously and overtly racist to us and tell us it isn't racism at all and we're imagining things. That is so dismissive. It's like telling a woman that she didn't get raped because men and women are equal so how could a man rape a woman and why would a man target a woman to rape her? Really? There's no difference? Of course there is. And we need to start seeing a difference when it is an issue. Think insurance companies don't absolutely take advantage of sick people? Do you need to be sick before you find out?

When white supremists chanted blood and soil...
When a white supremists runs people over in his car...
When Dylan Roof gunned down a bunch of black people praying in a church...
There is no doubt that these actions are evil. They reflect the worst hatred and the worst human instinct.

Now imagine the driver of that car and Dylan Roof are partners on a police force, wearing badges paid by your tax dollars. Imagine that these guys are the ones policing your community. If you're white, you may never even notice because they're not pulling YOU over unless they have to. They're not beating YOU up... unless you give them no choice. But what do you think they would do with their authority when all they have to do is say they saw one of us about to pull a weapon and they feared for their lives? This is the fear we live with every day. These cops don't wear swastikas on their uniforms. They don't wear hoods or give the nazi salute. We don't know which one is a racist and which isn't. So guess what? We don't trust any of them by default. We've learned over many years that we can't. We want to. We want things to be different. But until they are different, every cop is potentially a neo-nazi. Every single cop is potentially the KKK. Because just like the Matrix... any one of them you see can be an agent of hate and oppression. And internet videos are proving now what we've always known. We're not making up what's happening to us. We never were. When thousands of black people are supporting BLM, many times more than what you'll ever see at a march or rally, you should take it seriously. They're not making it up. You can look for faults. You can say they shot a criminal... but the law affords ALL citizens due process, not summary execution. You can say, "oh it was just a mistake" but they make many more "mistakes" with us than with you. So these are not just police shootings that we're talking about.

These are racially motivated hate crimes as well as terrorism.

And it is when whites don't see or understand this to the extent that it is a reality for us, that's when we feel like we are fighting all alone against the entire society that is ready and willing to sit back and watch us die. It is a miracle that there isn't more violence against the police. It really is. What some members of BLM have done is NOTHING compared to what many are prepared to do, because while you think it's not that bad, that's not how we feel and many are not willing to sit in time out waiting for the next time when it might happen to someone they know, or maybe even themselves.

There was a young woman who got shot in front of her son. I would describe her has incredibly unhinged. Truly, she brought her death upon herself. She was so angry at the police that even a simply stop became a life or death struggle for her. She truly believed her very life was threatened the moment she saw those lights in her rear view mirror. Was her death justified? Absolutely. She probably would have shot as many as she could but that was because in her mind, they were all a threat to her and her son. Again, was she crazy? Yep. But that fear didn't come from nowhere. It was raised and nurtured by the history of violent interactions with police that she was aware of.

With all due respect, no white person in America wakes up like this; afraid of the police, thinking today might be the day they get shot walking home from school, or walking to the store, or driving a nice car. They assume you're guilty and they feel good when they catch you. All of them? Of course not. But enough to make it a bigger problem for us than for you. We don't exclude whites because we hate you. We exclude whites because you're not the victims of racially motivated criminal behavior of the part of local government. We can't control gang violence. Do we try? Of course we do. However, we should be able to control the police because we're paying them to follow the rules we all agree to. But some are playing by a different set of rules. And when they kill us? They usually get away with it, signalling to other racists that they're allowed to as long as they're wearing a badge.

And sometimes... even when they're not.

Rosalyn J wrote: The contents of this video may be disturbing to some viewers

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OpYHE5dFII

Good evening ladies and gentlemen. It seems I need my own learning opportunity, so I would like to start a discussion about a topic affects people like me

Thank you for sharing this. Though the topic may not directly affect me (apart from the fact that I allow it to affect me to some degree) the topic matters to me.

I am not racist. I have black friends, I have had Asian friends, I have white friends, I have had Hispanic/Latino friends, I have had Middle Eastern friends, I have had Jewish friends, etc. etc. etc. I believe institutionalized racism is a major problem in the United States.

Just so we are clear,
I don't agree with the premise of this video

Just so I am clear: I do agree with the premise of this video. Which is saying something as I have generally supported the cause of movements like BLM and the anti-fascists.

I think the person who posted this video is being honest. I don't think he is being racist. If anyone thinks he is being racist...well, frankly, you are being oversensitive and might need to re-examine your personal definitions for "racist" and "racism."

All that being said, I do think the BLM movement COULD be a very good thing. However, I think ALM would be a better movement.

Whenever someone who is Caucasian says "I have black friends" it seems like I already know what's coming. They are about to side with a criticism against BLM or black people in general, but they want their criticism to sound different, ie. 'not racist', because they don't think it is. Why not? Because you have black friends?

What's funny is that the NFL protest is probably the most popular black protest in our history. You would think, because everyone loves Martin Luther King Jr. now that it was always so and that his protests were popular. No, white people en mass, did not like his protests. Black protesters were attacked. Black protesters were lynched. Black protesters were hung. Black protesters, including the now beloved MLK, were assassinated.

The reason institutional racism has survived to this day is because too many whites are able to turn the other way while it's happening and behave as though it doesn't exist and this is not a problem that we need to protest. Honestly, when the black community is in pain we are BY OURSELVES. Of course white people offer advice from the comfortable position of power, telling us what we should do to better survive under their authority, when it is the responsibility of the police to protect and serve EVERYONE. Understandably, this advice, which often involves bootstraps and hypocrisy, falls on deaf ears because it doesn't seem like they really care until they are being personally inconvenienced.

When you fall and hit your knee, local nerve cells send signals to your brain to tell "you" where the injury is so that "you" can do something about it. The more intense the pain, the more damage may be done. If black people are protesting, it's the same as local nerve cells sending pain signals to the country to let the country know where the problem is so that the nation can do something about it.

If the nation does little to nothing about it then how could it be said that 1. It's not really a problem or 2. the problem is both legs and the knee shouldn't send pain signals for itself but rather when something affect your knee and your elbow your knee shouldn't send pain signals to the brain unless it is coordinating with the elbow.

Does this make any sense to you?

But when it's black people, somehow it makes sense to people that black people shouldn't complain or shouldn't protest, or that black people are "doing it wrong". No one tells us how we should protest. It's always how we shouldn't.

When I have a problem, I don't need to gather all the other people that have the same problem and coordinate on how we're going to solve it together.

Whites are getting shot too. But question.... did white people create a group called "ALL LIVES MATTER"? Did white people organize against bad cops? Did white people, who have more power, and who are in a majority, and who are getting killed at an uncomfortable rate by the police, come to black people and say "hey, let's coordinate because this is affecting all of us?"

No. That didn't happen.

All lives matter did not exist. White lives matter did not exist. One might even question whether whites were being killed at an uncomfortable rate or if they were getting killed at a rate that was quite comfortable for them.

Suddenly, it was when BLACK PEOPLE had a problem.... magically... quite suddenly.... white had a problem, NOT WITH THE POLICE.... but with black people protesting.

Amazing, huh?

White people could have simply said, "YES, I agree. We need to do something about bad cops. And you know what? This is happening to us too so that gives us even more reason to do something about... BAD COPS. Let's call our representatives. Let's call our mayors. Let's put political pressure on this."

But no.

White people said, "We need to do something about black people protesting OUR cops."

And that's how "ALL LIVES MATTER" was even thought up in the first place. It was to ATTACK the entire concept of the BLM protest. It is an attack that denies that the problem even exists. Because if a white person doesn't get a job everything's fair. If a black person doesn't get a job everything must be fair if a white person didn't get it either. That's logical, but that's not reality. In REALITY a black person not getting called back for a job could be because they weren't qualified but it could ALSO be because they were black. And if they are a woman that's another possible strike if the interviewer has a gender bias. So just because you get pulled over for speeding doesn't mean that the police's motives never have anything to do with race. A lot of cops are A-holes by nature because it is a job that attracts those personality types. So yes, a cop could give you a hard time and even shoot you because they're A-holes who were probably picked on in middle school, but there are also A-holes who are racists. We do not have to ignore racism just because they're also A-holes in general.

Where people's intentions are tends to follow their expenditure of energy. The person who made the video invested the energy into voicing BLM criticisms in a time when doing so has been like the in thing to do and it was done by pundits and commentators constantly (because they hated BLM). These same people do not invest the same or greater amounts of energy into criticising the police or talking about who everyone should be calling in order to create political pressure on the police force to change. No... what people did was they changed the argument. They made it seem like they were defending cops like people defend the troops. It's a political dog whistle. Whenever they want you to stop doing something they just pretend you are somehow violating the flag, the national anthem, the troops (because they can take bullets but their feelings might get hurt). They always try to CHANGE what it is that black people are protesting in order to make the protest WRONG.

I ask you not to fall for it.

Black people do not need to coordinate our pain.
Black people do not need to protest in a way that you're comfortable with.
Black people do not need to ignore racism just because you don't want to think any of these cops are racist.
Black people do not need to ignore things like Stop and Frisk.
Black people do not need to ignore the fact that we've been racially profiled for many years.
Black people do not need to forget the fact that the KKK wore hoods because many of them were members of law enforcement
Black people do not need to have a politically correct protest when whites elected a politically incorrect president. That is the height of hypocrisy.
Black people do not need to wait on other people to get behind them when the same people are willing to ignore their message and attack them.
Black people do not need to ignore dog whistle racism, gerrymandering, the 'Southern Strategy' etc.
Black people do not need to pretend that racism suddenly ended the day Obama took the Oath of Office, especially when many whites were calling him and his wife racial slurs
Black people do not need to ignore the way the criminal justice system treats us unfairly or even ask if white officers are also planting drugs on white suspects.
Black people do not need to ignore how ridiculous it is to shoot a child at a park with a toy gun in a matter of seconds when they talk down grown men
Black people do not need to ignore the fact that if a cop is having a bad day we can follow every instruction and law and still end up dead
Black people do not need to ignore that most white cops who kill black people get away with it. Many are not even indicted.
Black people do not need to trust the police because we have years of experience proving that we cannot.

The truth is that every anti-BLM criticism seeks to put black people in check. They, in general, want to ignore the racism and would rather black people not protest at all. We can tell who's really supporting us and who's really for us by those who are willing to set their own race to the side and just be HUMAN enough to see that racism is something that we ALL need to stop. But racism isn't happening to ALL of us. It's happening mainly to black people.

And if you think I'm being too sensitive consider this...

Hispanic men are also racially profiled. Hispanics are also ridiculed with racial slurs. I remember when I found out what a "wet back" was. I was 18 or 19. So they also have a reason to complain about the cops being racists but what you don't see them complaining about is Black Lives Matter. You don't see them going crazy over a lack of inclusion to the point that everyone just ignores what we're actually protesting and the fact that people of all races can react to a protest by getting involved. A protest is a vehicle to raise awareness. But the change comes from the people who see it and who aren't willing to sit on the sidelines and debate the merits of the protest or mistakes emotional humans make in protesting or making videos about why they don't think they're racists. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM! And then if you want to make an All Lives Matter organization that ALSO protests the police, then go right ahead because no one said whites couldn't do that. But it's All lives matter is not about protesting bad police officers. It's a counter protest, protesting black people.

Not necessarily, some people just know accuracy is really important and when its weak or absent, it can raise red flags about intention. Racism for example focuses on using race to categorize for reasons other then race, and that process can easily become discrimination because such use has its scope (category) exceeding its accuracy (attribute eg race). An easy way to avoid being racist is to ensure the attributes are held by all members of whatever category is being labelled by that attribute. Saying all white people have power is an example, and also saying all black people don't, is another example IMO. What would be probably more correct versions of the first one for example would be either all people in power have more power, or more white people in the US have power then black people in the US. Clear messages are clear.

Such that anyone who relies on race to overly simplify a usually real aspect of the category can potentially be doing so deliberately, and so as misinformation when anything else supports the red flags about intention then their will be a wider range of push-back - no matter the intent of the original message. Because the intent is lost in the badly delivered message, because of the inaccuracy of it. Is BLM a good label for the intended meaning... IMO its a bit weak as it can be misinterpreted as others do not. And so ALM address that inconsistency - but at the cost of detail of the intended meaning. So neither are ideal, perhaps there is something else better!!??

From my experience those who misinterpret BLM do so because it doesn't benefit them. They become defensive. BLM simply says Black lives matter. It doesn't say they only matter or that they matter more.
Because it doesn't include them they find it discomforting or offensive. In all honesty people need to get over themselves here. Black lives do matter. In the history of our nation Black lives have had it the worst or second worst out of the races involved(Native Americans being the contender).
We might not be guilty of kidnapping and enslaving but we are guilty of cowardice if we don't commit to the discomfort of this conversation.

Just my feelings.

Adder wrote: Not necessarily, some people just know accuracy is really important and when its weak or absent, it can raise red flags about intention. Racism for example focuses on using race to categorize for reasons other then race, and that process can easily become discrimination because such use has its scope (category) exceeding its accuracy (attribute eg race). An easy way to avoid being racist is to ensure the attributes are held by all members of whatever category is being labelled by that attribute. Saying all white people have power is an example, and also saying all black people don't, is another example IMO. What would be probably more correct versions of the first one for example would be either all people in power have more power, or more white people in the US have power then black people in the US. Clear messages are clear.

Such that anyone who relies on race to overly simplify a usually real aspect of the category can potentially be doing so deliberately, and so as misinformation when anything else supports the red flags about intention then their will be a wider range of push-back - no matter the intent of the original message. Because the intent is lost in the badly delivered message, because of the inaccuracy of it. Is BLM a good label for the intended meaning... IMO its a bit weak as it can be misinterpreted as others do not. And so ALM address that inconsistency - but at the cost of detail of the intended meaning. So neither are ideal, perhaps there is something else better!!??

First, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. However, when people say "white people have the power" or something to that effect what it means is that white people are in the majority in a representative democracy. Therefore, they have the greatest influence on society and on government. It doesn't mean that white people have group meetings and decide as a group to vote for white issues or vote against black issues. It seems means that "collectively", the majority, by voting for their own issues, and using their political capital/pressure for their own issues, it creates real power that positively affects them and often negatively affects the minority.

Let's put it in a different way. Let's say that a representative number of whites and other races are in a restaurant and there are a limited number of tables and a limited supply of the best meats. Already, there's inequality because the whites will go in with more money to spend. The restaurant isn't unaware of this fact. So who is most likely to get the best service? You may not even notice a difference if you are a customer. If you're a white customer you may not be aware of the difference in service that you are getting compared to minorities. You may experience "normal service". A minority customer may not notice a difference either if they can't see how whites are being served. If you have nothing to compare it to, no frame of reference, then it is not impossible to simply not notice a difference.

In this case and many other cases the judgment is seemingly based on class. These people have money. These people don't. Businesses are therefore more afraid of losing business from the person who can potentially give them the most money. However, how does a business discern which is which? Police officers use racial profiling based on the idea that most of the crime is being done by a certain group. And if the main factor that determines most non-violent crime is income then how do they determine, without seeing your tax returns, which is which? I'm one of the highest paid people in my company and I'm black. That doesn't mean there isn't racial bias or discrimination. And I love the owner of the company like a family member because he treats his employees like family (It's a family business). I would never say anything bad about him but bias is not binary. There are degrees and he's not the only one who makes decisions that affect people. And do I make as much as I should? No. But I don't think the reason for that is racially motivated. I say this because I'm not one of those people who think everything is about race. Money is the biggest factor in a capitalistic society like ours. But again, when you're in a situation where the only thing you know about a person is what you see, it's very easy to judge a book by its cover and there are plenty of unfavorable stereotypes that negatively affect minorities.

There are many African Americans who believe white people, in general, hate them because of their race. I know there are because they'll say things in my presence they will never say in yours (unless they're really angry). By the same token, I've either overheard things from white people I wasn't supposed to hear or been told by another white person who was frustrated that they had to hear it (because they don't feel the same way), that exposed the extremely low level of respect for people on the singular basis of race. Why do I have to be a "nigger" when this person knows nothing about me? And why, when I wasn't even thinking about him at all, did he have to be thinking about me in negative sense?

I've had more than my fair share of run ins with racism, from drunk people, to children (with and without parents present), and it's truly sickening. But what's almost more sickening is how, when black people try to tell the society that says "liberty and justice for all" that we have a wide spread problem that involves race, white people want to INSTEAD of fixing the problem, act as if black protesters are the problem and proceed to operate in a counter-fashion to what we're trying to do to protect ourselves. And we wouldn't even have to say "Black lives matter" if we felt that they matter to white people. Think about the statement! I don't have to say black lives matter to other black people. That would be stupid. You only say it when it is in question. Black Lives Matter is a statement that is the answer to the question, "do black lives matter [to you]"? If I'm bringing my car to the shop and I say "my car needs an axle" and the mechanic's response is "all cars need an axle" do you understand that I'm going to have to resist the urge to punch the guy in the face? And I'm not a violent person. I don't have a short fuse at all. I don't literally mean I want to punch everyone who makes smart ass comments. I'm simply telling you how I would feel in regards to a comment that is obviously a smart ass remark that has no value to the needs of MY car. I'm paying you to fix MY car, not all cars. So even this idea that "it's about accuracy", no it's really not. That's just an excuse. The idea that we need to think about all the ways in which white people might get offended or might misunderstand or misrepresent something we're doing for a GOOD CAUSE is utterly ridiculous (imho). Even children are told, "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all".

I have a lot of respect for Malcolm X but not very much for the Nation of Islam. Some of his rhetoric, at the time, wasn't beneficial and yet I could feel where he was coming from. His approach was more rigid than MLK and definitely more reactive. Both MLK and Malcolm X were unpopular with whites in their time and both are honored and respected today. But at the time both were attacked with criticisms because people wanted to stop what they were doing. Now that it's history, and had some positive results, all of a sudden criticism is no longer fashionable. We're talking about a reaction to a large number of people, not just being treated unfairly like some schoolyard bully, but rather people getting lynched, murdered, etc.

In another thread a member talked about getting off the bus at the wrong stop and how fortunate it was that he had a gun and how prepared he was to use it against members of a gang who had blunt objects. He felt he needed to be armed in case of a situation in which he could receive bodily harm and possibly kill those with the intent to harm him before they got the chance to do so; based on the potential harm and feeling like his life was in danger.

I can empathize with him but it's harder for me and only goes so far because the idea that deadly force is the way to stop someone from potentially hurting you has never been an acceptable option for minorities. My best friends father had to flee the south because he was told, after beating up a white man who was harassing and physically assaulting him, that he was going to be killed. If I told you his story in 2017 you'd think I was talking about a gang when it's a story about white people in the South.

Black people have been in this situation, suffering in relative silence, for a long time; a situation where many whites wore hoods to conceal the fact that they were members of law enforcement. We have Mark Fuhrman on tape talking about how they would treat black people. We have cops on tape planting evidence against us. We have cops on tape beating us. We have cops on tape shooting first without any questions; even kids. The only difference now is that we have more evidence because of cell phones capturing what has been happening this whole time. But before, we didn't have youtube to share stories or cameras to capture evidence. Imagine all the cases of abuse that must have gone on before. And the fact that we do have cameras and social media should scare the police and make them stop doing these things but they're clearly so used to it... it's impossible. And they're not just used to committing these crimes against black people but they're used to getting away with it. That's why they do it.

Accuracy? Too often the "desire to be accurate" allows cops to get away with murder. Accurate is a relatively subjective concept. The reason people even challenge what's said is because they have a bias and don't want to believe it. So then they start looking for alternative answers that are more fitting with what they want to believe. In some cases people react before they get the full story, before they get all the facts. In the OJ trial, the nation was split because before he could be found guilty or not, most people had already made up their minds that he was guilty. Accuracy wasn't more important in their emotional outrage than their desire for justice. And guess what? It never is. Accuracy is always secondary which is why there are many black people who are executed by the State who were actually innocent. But as a society we overlook accuracy in these cases where people suffer the ultimate consequence but suddenly we want to be accurate in 100% of cases when it comes to defending the police. And in doing so people ignore and overlook the fact that BLM is not a product of 1 or 2 cases of misconduct, but rather a consistent trend over many years that the nation hasn't noticed but that the black community doesn't have the opportunity to ignore.

Should we shoot first based on our fears? The black panthers were demonized for even being armed and offering protection for their community against the police. How many people today stop to ask the question... "why would they feel so threatened by our police forces to the point of arming themselves like a militia in accordance with the 2nd Amendment?" Why do they feel it's THAT bad? Today, instead of doing what the Black Panther's did (who also had education, food, clinics, and other programs to help the community: http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/03/26/8-black-panther-party-programs-that-were-more-empowering-than-federal-government-programs/) we protest in the most non-violent ways we possibly can. Antifa were the ones who were armed, not BLM. It doesn't seem to matter what we do in protest. It's always wrong, but years later, when it can be shown to have had a positive impact, it will be seen as necessary and maybe even heroic.

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)



Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/



I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

Bill Cosby


Right off the bat, here is my bias...

The idea that Bill Cosby would sexually assault women is uncomfortable to me partially because he is a noteworthy member of my community.

That being said, there were a lot of allegations that made him seem guilty. There were too many to ignore. Once so many women were speaking out most people, black people included, had already concluded at least some degree of guilt.

Why is this relevant to BLM? Well let's see...

In more than a few cases the women LIED.

Now already, if there was no hypocrisy in America, the entire case against Cosby should have been endlessly and mercilessly attacked. People should have been outraged that the Cosby show was taken off air and Cosby punished financially, etc.

No, anyone who was lying was ignored for the chance that even one of the women were telling the truth.

How much time did most people spend trying to debunk the case? The only reason I know about the many lies and inaccuracies is because of my bias working in Bill's favor. When Michael Jackson was on trial in the media and in just about every social circle I had a bias then too, but I had less connection with MJ because honestly I was young and thought he was weird. And honestly... he was weird. But when I thought he might be innocent I defended him. It's not impossible that human beings didn't look at MJ and Cosby and see dollar signs. In fact, I would venture to say that most people who don't exploit others still occasionally have the thought about how they could. In fact, in the case of Cosby, there was a woman who came out in an interview saying that someone tried to pay her to seduce and set Cosby up. Maybe she was lying. That's possible. But she didn't have a motive to lie. And suddenly all these things were coming out about Cosby so many years after anything allegedly happened?

"Oh Bill Cosby was too powerful!" No, at the time, he wasn't. And the thought of a white woman getting sexually assaulted by a black man... there is no amount of power Cosby could have ever had to negate that. Whole communities of black people were burned down over such allegations.

But jokes about Bill Cosby drugging women flooded the internet. I wont lie. I made a few myself.

The only thing that Cosby ever admitted to were drugs that many people were doing at time voluntarily. Today, people go to the clubs, pass around a little ecstasy or whatever. That's what people do. I wouldn't. Maybe you wouldn't. But to a lot of people that's what partying means; getting intoxicated and doing things they wouldn't do sober. I used to be a fierce opponent of men getting women drunk in bars. I was young and in my young mind I saw the men as predators and the women as prey. I mean why do you need to intoxicate a woman by buying her multiple drinks if she was going to sleep with you anyway? To me that still sounds perfectly logical, and yet, what I know about women now makes it far more complex. Women often go to bars for that exact outcome to happen. Maybe they'll regret who they slept with later and use the 'beer goggles' excuse but they went there wanting to have sex and they willingly participated in lowering their inhibitions in a society that tends to unfairly denigrate women for being promiscuous.

No one knows this better than iconic entertainers. They have human bodies thrown at them while others have to pay for it in different ways. Sometimes, their name alone is enough to get them laid.

Now make no mistake about it. Bill Cosby can have all the mistrials he wants. He could even be found completely not guilty. However, we all know he's destroyed because of this and there is no hope of rehabilitating his image. MAYBE after he dies some prominent reporter will dig into the women and try to figure out what happened. And let's be clear. Many of these women aren't saying they were raped by Cosby but rather that he did something they felt at the time was inappropriate.

But the point is, that the mere effect of having so many people speak out against one man.... done. Destroyed.

Evidence ignored. Accuracy not important. The accusers were treated like they were victims.

Many, many, many, many black people have spoken out against bad cops in an environment in which black men especially do not feel safe. One black woman's fear was so heightened that she was completely irrational and precipitated her own death in front of her child (even though one could argue that killing her was avoidable). In this case the bias of America is exposed. The victims who were killed are treated like accusers. Their blood cries out to the rest of us for justice, but... for many people they just have to find some criticism to justify the officer's use of deadly force. On one hand, it doesn't effect them, but on the other hand... I think the reality is that they could imagine themselves pulling the trigger. They could imagine themselves feeling threatened by that situation. They can empathize with the cops based on their own unspoken fear.

But here's an interesting statistic...

Statistics show that 1 in 4 women in the US is a victim of domestic violence, those numbers jump to 1 in 2 if they are married to a cop.

Police beat their OWN wives or girlfriends at DOUBLE the national rate and they're the ones who are trained to deescalate situations?! If you're willing to do that to someone you love... what would you do to someone you hate? What would you do to someone who you think is responsible for most of the crime? Last time I checked, domestic violence and abuse was criminal. Could they be doing it possibly because they have more of a chance to see themselves as above the law? Is that possible? And if that's possible how might they bend or break the law when pursuing someone who they desire to see as being a worse person than them?

Time out for accuracy... am I saying all police beat their wives? Of course not. I shouldn't have to say this, but apparently I do.

We have police officers with motive. We know that power corrupts and police officers have a lot of power to enforce laws. We also know that there is a financial motive to bring in money for their districts as well as quotas that incentivize racial profiling. We know all these things.

But when its one man like Bill Cosby or Michael Jackson and many accusers they MUST be guilty while the police... according to the bias of most Americans, must be given the benefit of the doubt, and gotta be super accurate because maybe this big black guy thought he could kill 3-4 trained police officers with his bare hands and then flee to avoid arrest. You've seen the Hulk. Maybe a black guy in a car was thinking, rather than getting a ticket, let me just murder this white cop with a kid in the back seat. Maybe this little black kid in a park was about to go on some kind of terrorist rampage like some kind of child soldier version of Terminator.

We go out on a limb to defend the police when there are hundreds of current allegations and so many past allegations that black people would laugh at the idea of keeping count. So let's be honest. There is an overt bias against BLM because there is a covert bias against black people. We can all sit here and come up with justifications or we can accept the truth that is reflected in both personal and institutional racism. There is a bias against black people that predetermines guilt to the extent that black people are guilty until proven innocent and we are thought to be predators until you get to know us. And until you do, ironically, it is we who are the prey. And every white person isn't uniformly guilty but most people, of all races, spend a lot of time looking the other way. And that... is why we protest.

Much respect and love to the many people on this forum who are not racist or who have a very low degree of bias. It's not about being perfect. It's about working together for a more perfect union. As much as I might seem agitated or heated on this subject, I have to be more passionate and long-winded because there are not many voices here who are like mine. And being in the minority position makes it very difficult to be heard or understood because so many seem to oppose whatever it is you're trying to say. But I do appreciate the vast majority of you who let me say what I have to say without complaining too much about how inartfully I may at times say it. And maybe there is a better way. But until we know what that is we can only do the best we know how to do.

That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.



http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Warning: Spoiler!

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/01/stop-kidding-yourself-white-people-are-racist-6895283/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVI9Phz_ENo

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this. Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others. The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Lykeios wrote: I am not racist.

You are white: you cant NOT BE racist. You are racist because, as a white person, you benefit from a racist system.
Even if youre not racist on purpose, youre unconsciously racist and thats still racist. (Even though the IAT has been debunked)

Not only that, but youre also part of the only racial group that CAN be racist: whites. No person of any other racial group is even capable of being racist no matter how much individual authority they have in society because their group identity doesnt hold the institutional power necessary to make racism possible.

I am not exaggerating or mis-characterizing the rhetoric one bit. This is hte problem with BLM and all the other extreme leftist movements right now which are claiming social justice and equality. They are fundamentally racist themselves, irrational and divisive. They increase the amount of racism in the world instead of decreasing it.

I'd like to offer you this correction, in love. Or at least that is my intent.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/20/ohio-state-workshop-tells-students-only-whites-can-be-racists/

I read this article.

The title of the article is "Ohio State Workshop Tells Students Only Whites Can Be Racists"

So was this "rhetoric" aimed at hyping up black people to protest? No, it was a lecture to 20 people; 19 of which were white students.

Racism is a very charged word that is confused with racial prejudice and discrimination. Whether the confusion is engineered, I cannot say. I will say it seems rather convenient to me though.

So what is racism?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9imppcCUc

Racism is a competitive relationship that is power based. It is confused for not liking someone because of their skin color because it has race in the name. Many black people don't even know what racism is. So occasionally you'll have a few trying to educate others.

So when they say "black people can't be racist", please do not get confused. They're not saying that black people cannot racially profile, engage in racial stereotypes, hate or dislike based on race, or be prejudicial or discriminate based on race. These are different concepts that people generally do not understand and are not mutually exclusive.

Because "racist" has come to be such an emotionally charged word it is quite understandable that no one wants to be called a racist. Even some of the white protestors with the tiki torches have said they didn't want to be identified as racist; they are just "pro-white".

When I was young I used to think that a racist was someone who thought their race was superior to others. But again, this is not the definition of racism held by everyone and the definition I was given as a child was really the same over simplified mess that informs most people.

Racism doesn't mean that you think your race is the "master race". It really just means that you are part of a system, conscious or unconscious, that collectively maintains "white supremacy".

No one person built America. And it's hard when Americans, as individuals, have to face the hatred for some of the things our government has done in our name. However, as an American, it's a difficult argument for me to attempt, to separate myself from democratically elected officials making decisions that in their minds represent their constituents. If I was taken hostage by Isis, I don't know what I'd say. I could say I disagree with the murder of innocent Muslims, especially women and children. But I cannot deny my status as an American citizen and that my tax dollars helped pay for that.

I personally feel like it's not fair because I am in the majority, to take responsibility for the collective will of the majority but it's my responsibility to influence the views of the majority and if I fail to do that I'm still responsible for what my nation does. I don't personally feel it's fair to say whites are racist. I don't agree with that wording, wherever you may have heard it. However, I know that the term is being used in order to confer legitimate responsibility to all the members of the white race for all the things that the white race has collectively done. Racism and white supremacy happen to be part of that legacy, just like the violence in Chicago will forever be a stain on the black community. We can argue about the role government plays on the economy in the inner city and how money is taken from one place to benefit another and schools are failing and all of that. And there are legitimate arguments on both sides. But as long as there are black people doing bad things they're never going to be judged individually. Not going to happen. They're black. I may wish they weren't but they are and the black community has a responsibility to do something about it; whether the police represent our agenda or not.

The first article you posted was a good article... written by a white person in reaction to L’Oreal model Munroe Bergdorf said which was:

When I stated that “all white people are racist”, I was addressing that fact that western society as a whole, is a SYSTEM rooted in white supremacy – designed to benefit, prioritise and protect white people before anyone of any other race. Unknowingly, white people are SOCIALISED to be racist from birth onwards. It is not something genetic. No one is born racist. We also live in a society where men are SOCIALISED to be sexist. Women are SOCIALISED to be submissive. Gay people are SOCIALISED to be ashamed of their sexuality due to heterosexual people’s homophobia. Cisgender people are SOCIALISED to be transphobic. We do not need to be this way. We are not born this way and we can learn to reject it. We are just socially conditioned to think this way from an early age. With the right education, empathy and open mindedness we can unlearn these socialisations and live a life where we don’t oppress others and see things from other people’s points of view.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/beautiful-minds/201101/does-the-implicit-association-test-iat-really-measure-racial-prejudice
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice

These 2 articles deal mainly with the idea that a particular test can predict behavior. I agree with the authors myself. I do believe in conditioned behavior, responses, etc. however, testing them through a conscious action seems silly to me. Your conscious mind isn't exactly a slave to your subconscious. It can overrule many automatic reflexes based on what you consciously think the right answer is. If you're testing me on how many people I'm going to shoot wearing a hijab just the fact that I'm taking a test would help me target those people less because I'm trying to pass a test. Often in schools testing fails because teachers train students for the tests themselves which doesn't mean they truly have a grasp on the subject matter. The human brain works based on association. As a programmer it is impossible to convince me that we are not programmed by our experiences. There's no reason for children to have racist attitudes (and in this case the definition of racism is not the same as the one taught at Ohio State or the one in the Dr. Claude Anderson video I shared) except that they learn them from their parents and friends. It is inherited and passed on because whites wont stop reacting to what they see black people doing without applying what they see to an entire race. On the other hand, most of my fiance's son's exposure (who has lived with me for the past 2 years now) has unfortunately been the result of personal experiences. He gets into arguments with other kids and suddenly he's whatever slur they've heard and he reacts by using whatever he's heard.

But there is no BLM rhetoric that all white people are racists in ANY definition that expresses a thought that didn't already exist because of our interactions with whites. If it's new to you it is only because you were unaware it existed before. And if it shocks you then you should imagine our shock at the things we hear from whites who don't claim to be either white supremacists or racists. At the end of the day we're not going to solve this through various means of slander. We're going to solve it by taking responsibility for things that we don't necessarily want to see as being our problem.

OB1Shinobi wrote: That last post is why ive mostly withdrawn from this topic. I give specific talking points and wait for a reply, and when the reply comes it is very long and yet doesnt address anything ive brought up. I dont care about Bill Cosby. Once he admitted to buying roofies and putting them in womens drinks my mind was made up.. thats not a party tactic its a rape tactic so f**k bill cosby. Not because he is black but because he slipped rooffies into womens drinks to sexually assault them. And Im not afraid of people calling me a racist or thinking that I am a racist. If you think i am a racist that simply convinces me that you are a fool.

Yes, the police in America are out of control.

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcIDO-BzWkw

http://www.copwatch.org/

The people with the least amount of money and influence are the ones most vulnerable to abuse and the ones least likely to see justice when abused. Ive said this before and will say it again: the solution to racism is in the economic achievement and social integration of of blacks. Education and investment opportunities for ambitious and talented black people and increased representation of blacks in the police, in politics, and in the various core industries of our economy will result in an affluent and socially influential black population.

Rioting is not ok and running from the cops is not allowed. Communist inspired movements which seek to transpose the idea of the proletariat vs the bourgeoisie onto the American landscape through group vs group identity politics are not necessary or even healthy for our society

Nothing ive said so far has gotten a fair response so im not expecting much, but thats my position.

First, I apologize to you OB1Shinobi, but that reply was not in response to you at all. In fact, while I was writing it I didn't know your post even existed. Once I did see it I wrote a response to address what you said. These are obviously lengthy and therefore not quick responses. I apologize for that.

Secondly, if there is a view that this thread is one side vs another, I apologize to you if you got that impression from me. I actually think everyone has been wonderful in this thread. I think the idea that we should always judge success by how many people share our views isn't logical. Some of what I say is venting based on what I've heard, not just here, but from other sources. But I speak more here because my expectations of the people here are much higher. The people are here are generally more enlightened. Not perfect, just as I am not perfect; but more enlightened.

Thirdly, sometimes all we need to hear 'you' say is what you just said about police being out of control. The problem is that black people, not just me personally, are used to that "...but" and a lot of times it's what comes after ANY measure of agreement that is offensive to us. We go to sleep one day thinking we're protesting injustice and inequality and the next day we wake up to find our president telling us we're protesting the flag and the troops. Not only is this news to us but the problem is that it poisons the argument, ends conversations, and gives people justification to continue to ignore the problem by making the protest the new problem. This is the part I am the most sensitive to because it's like we cannot win to save our lives... literally... TO SAVE OUR LIVES.

Lastly, I agree 80% with your solution. I have personally been working within the economic empowerment side of things. But I can also tell you that a large part of the problem is envy and jealousy and fear. It was the same when workers unions first got started. The progress made by black people is only half the story. The other half is the resistance. The other half is white workers feeling displaced like the popular South Park chant "They took our jobs!" If you understand it, this sentiment is very real and is a result of white privilege. The idea that Tom should be guaranteed a job in this economy because he's a particular color is racist. If there's truly no difference between Tom and Jermaine as they were both born here then the job should go to the most qualified unless there is some other mitigating factor that should be considered; like if the company isn't hiring black people because the guy doing the actual hiring thinks black people are lazy. This, of course, comes from an attitude that some whites have, that after no longer being forced to do back breaking work all day and getting whipped if we did not reach quotas, that we feel entitled and are less productive. You, being of sound mind, probably find this view repugnant. Maybe you've never heard such a stereotype in your life. We have.

Obamacare was imperfect but the CBO said it was stable. The republicans ranted about how it was in a death spiral but instead of letting it die, Trump did what we knew he was going to do. He sabotaged it. The whole point of insurance is companies taking from as many healthy people as possible to cover their liability for the riskier pool. Relevance? Black people are often treated like Obamacare. It's not enough to say black people are this or that or, for some, believe themselves superior. They also use their position to sabotage and confirmation bias to justify individual decisions that, at scale, create massive problems. This is the part it seems like we get the most resistance on when it comes to believing our report. People, in general, would rather believe it's not happening and that we're all confused by mischievous leftwing indoctrination. Those who get abused the most don't have time to listen to republicans or democrats talk and they don't trust either one.

Bill Cosby didn't "roofie" anyone. This idea of cosby slipping pills into women's drinks who were, at the time, trying to get something from a relationship with him, is based on their allegations which have never been proven. This is why I brought up Bill Cosby. Because of the ease at which everyone assumed his guilt. He had literally no presumption of innocence. There are multiple events being conflated that involved consensual use of party drugs with accusations of women finding themselves asleep in his company. Most of them are simply not credible but we tend to overlook that. In fact, most of the women's stories haven't really been critically investigated. Constand's story has a lot of issues, but mainly the amount of contact that she had after the alleged assault.

Am I going to convince you he's innocent? Of course not. Your mind was already made up. The point was how easy it was for people to make up their minds on the strength of so many women coming out against him. And that was the whole point. It doesn't matter how many witnesses black people produce to prove injustice or how many black men freed from prison by new evidence. The majority of America tend to side with the police just like they side with the troops. You think the troops have never done anything morally wrong in foreign countries? I've heard it from them myself. There are bad soldiers and there are bad cops. And if we don't want the reputation of the whole to be brought down by the few then we need to make sure the few are always brought to justice.

Writing this took some time and effort and im tired and busy. I am not personally opposed to any individuals here. I will reply again when I am able but it may not be today.

JLSpinner wrote: I don't think generalizing every "extreme leftist movement" is a logical way to discuss this.

Its perfectly logical to distinguish between extremist groups and more moderate groups. Im GUESSING that you meant to say something like: "i dont think its fair to apply the label "extreme leftist movement" to every group that speaks out against racism", which would be a statement that i agree with.
Is BLM an extreme leftist group? Well, there are enough extreme leftists in the various BLM orgs. that its understandable for someone to think so. Heres an example:




The words of Michaela Brown, a spokeswoman for Baltimore Bloc, one of the group's partner organizations: "We seek radical transformation, not reactionary reform," said to TIME magazine.

BLM wants:
1. Reparations for All "Past and Continuing Harms" to the Black Community
(basically: free school, technical and vocational training, debt forgiveness, and a "guaranteed minimum livable income" check for all black people)


2. The End of the "War Against Black People"
(no more death penalty, no more having to post bail when arrested, no financial charges to be incurred when arrested, and the best part: " an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them."
There are some other things in there that i agree with although i dont know how to make them happen, such as addressing the privatization of prisons and the militarization of the police. But what i can tell you for sure based on the overall message is that BLM is NOT going to produce a practical solution to those issues.



3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.
(cut police forces, release and expunge the records of everyone ever convicted of any drug trafficking charges or prostitution charges, and give them reparations for having been arrested and convicted, universal health care (including the guaranteed right to abortions), free college, "special protections" for queer and trans people, oh yeah and while youre at it, stop using fossil fuels and cut the military budget)



4. The Restructuring of the Economy to Produce "Economic Justice" for Blacks
Restructure the tax codes to "redistribute" American wealth to blacks. Basically give a bunch of money to all black people. End of our existing trade agreements and end of the Trans-Pacific partnership.



5. Complete Community Control
(the people being arrested get to fire the people arresting them)



6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society.
(I have no idea how far they really want to take this but the terminology (and references to "political prisoners" and COINTELPRO) is suggestive of some kind of separatist end game aka Nation of Islam and Black Panther type stuff. "Black Separatism = blacks get their own country, either a designated part of USA or some other land somehwere else. In this aim the black racists and the white racists actually are on the same side, both want white and black separatism. Thats a possibility based on the language used in this point but they dont actually say that so...)


Sources

JLSpinner wrote: Yes there are people involved with BLM that are in fact racist. Yes non Caucasian people can be racist. Yes just because you are Caucasian doesn't mean you are racist. There is no evidence to support these absolute conditions. These views can and do hurt the cause.

There doesnt need to be evidence: its obvious. The mere fact that the White House is called the "WHITE House" proves it all.
THAT WAS SACRASM.. lol..
What i am saying is that the modern left has accepted irrational and racist ideology. You read ZealotX's reply -- racism USED TO MEAN "judging people by their race"... NOW it means "being white". Its not rational and its not just, and thats my point.

JLSpinner wrote: But that doesn't diminish the cause of you keep people accountable for their actions and don't project that on to others.

Im not sure what this sentence means but i agree that individuals should be judged as individuals and held accountable only for their own actions and ideas.

JLSpinner wrote: The same way many Caucasians grow angry when blamed for slavery or racism. The same way many peaceful Muslims get blamed for terrorism. Blaming everyone for the actions of a portion is not logical.

A movement is defined by its leadership... every nazi that fought in the war wasnt an evil person, but Hitler was an evil, crazy sonofabitch, and all the "good people" who fought for him gave him the ability to enact his evil onto the world and onto the Jews. If you had sorted through all of Hitlers talking points and stated aims, and especially if you had talked to all the everyday people who supported him, you would have found much that seemed reasonable and logical and even much you could agree with. But where was it heading all along?
Im not equating BLM with Hitler, im using the nazis as an example because they are a perfect example of the principle im referencing.

JLSpinner wrote: Look up the peaceful aspects of BLM that don't make the propaganda headlines. Check out the petitions and sit ins. The authorized protests and social media outreach groups. Check out the volunteers trying to fix the cities or raise money for the schools that are dying.

Ive addressed that i think

JLSpinner wrote: The media has become a business. The headlines are designed to sell, not inform. Unfortunately it's now our responsibility to dig deeper and search for the facts.

Including the ones which tell you how wonderful and benign and well meaning BLM is. Those are ALSO headlines, designed to sell. If you believe BLM has the right approach then feel free to be supportive of them in any way that you can. I agree with the basic aim of reducing racism (really reducing actual racism, not just disempowering white people). I agree with reforming the prison industry, ending the drug war, changing the financing rules of politics, and all kinds of other lofty changes BLM says they want. But as ive said, they are nested within a larger movement that i consider reprehensible.

Ultimately, my biggest complaint about them probably is simply that there doesnt seem to be a more rational and less divisive alternative. Many BLM mean well, but the movement in embedded within a nefarious ideology which has infected the left in the recent decade. It is the communist idea of class conflict being superimposed onto American society. The original idea was that civilization is a battle for power between the poor proletariat (worker) and the evil, exploitative bourgeois (the rich). That theory collapsed in the second world war, but the marxists, instead of admitting they were wrong, modified their theory and have been teaching it in western universities under the auspices of "social justice".. now we have an entire generation of people convinced that the entire of western civilization is one long, concerted effort by white men to oppress and exploit women, and all people of all other races.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

I literally give up.

I will never try to stand up for the rights of marginalized peoples again. Just because my skin isn't "dark" I'm racist?

You know what I have to say to that?

Thank you all for convincing me that whatever I can do will never be enough and that I shouldn't even TRY to talk about "racial" issues because I happen to be "white." Which is bull**** in and of itself for a couple of reasons which I'm not even going to bother to point out.

Count me out of further discussions on this topic or any other related to "race." (A cultural belief in something that doesn't even EXIST in reality. There is ONE race: the human race.)