"God Hates Gays"

Thank you Angelus for your words and I appreciate your sentiments.

I will say that V-Tog clearly has strong opinions of an opposing nature to mine but in fairness my intention was to push a few buttons and get a flavour of the thoughts and sentiments of the Temple and indeed it's members.

Sometimes one has to boarder on the line between treading on the eggshells and really kicking them about. And sometimes the truth is a bitter pill to swallow!!

Arkda Asterma wrote: There are some interesting and quite in depth opinions in the above 11 pages. However for me there is a fundamental problem with allowing religion to dominate what is acceptable or not in any society today. Whether it be the Bible or the Koran there is no definitive proof, particularly in relevance to the salient matters, that what has been written in the last two thousand years holds any factual credeance at all, other than subjective interpretaion reinforced with domination by centuries of religious freaks!!( popes, immans and so on!!!)

Let's face it, the the Catholic church along with the Muslim religion is full of hypocracy and frankly archaic practices that very obviously serve to frustrate the peaceful and indeed logical progression of the human race.

I find it diabolical that in this day an age, with all our factual science and drive for diversity and free spirit, that we still have so many sheep who staunchly follow these false profits living daily with the diluded hope that they are making a 'blind bit of difference'.

I can only hope that one day when evelution allows and common sense prevails, such archaic practices and institutions such as popes and immans etc. etc. will cease to exist, and notwithstanding a healthy degree of dicipline, which is needed within any society, we can all live without unproven religious interference.

Religion may once have had a place in the world, as a vehicle by which the masses were controlled and directed. Those days are surey on their way out. I'm not suggesting that we stop having faith, that is personal and subjective to the individual but please spare me the bullshit brainwashing routine...... it's time to move on and allow us to live the way we were wired to!!!

a blind bit of difference?

why I couldn't agree with you more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp9TgyjlnS0

Angelus wrote: Not all of us read everything that's posted in every part of the forum, V-Tog, and while I understand that you have more obligations to do so than I do, try to understand that other people don't have the time to do the same. Whether Arkda posts something once or one hundred times, it is his opinion and he is free to express it. And frankly, the topics he posted in are pretty similar, so I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to rephrase the same sentiment.

Also, simply because he didn't saturate his post with first person statements doesn't mean he was stating his opinions as facts. One of the first things I was taught in school when writing research papers was that first person statements tend to weaken arguments.

I think strong opinions make for the most interesting discussions...likewise, calling someone out for something like copying and pasting lines from their other posts can be really discouraging. When I was first a member here, I had a particular proclivity for scaring people off. A few new members disappeared very quickly because I made it clear that I didn't like what they were saying or how they were saying it. I'm not suggesting that you're doing the same, I just think we have a responsibility to consider the impact out posts have on how comfortable other people feel about posting.

Hello...

I respectfully disagree with...err...everything you said there.

Emphasis on respectfully

Arkda Asterma wrote: I will say that V-Tog clearly has strong opinions of an opposing nature to mine but in fairness my intention was to push a few buttons and get a flavour of the thoughts and sentiments of the Temple and indeed it's members.

You don't know what my opinions are. I've been involved in organised religion my whole life but there are many aspects of it that I think are outdated, and sometimes unaccapetable. My post was not based purely on my own views of religion, but that you are determinedly posting anti-religious propaganda at a Church. As you think that religion is such a load of nonsense, I assume that you will be renouncing your oath and membership?

V-Tog wrote:

Angelus wrote: Not all of us read everything that's posted in every part of the forum, V-Tog, and while I understand that you have more obligations to do so than I do, try to understand that other people don't have the time to do the same. Whether Arkda posts something once or one hundred times, it is his opinion and he is free to express it. And frankly, the topics he posted in are pretty similar, so I don't see anything wrong with not wanting to rephrase the same sentiment.

Also, simply because he didn't saturate his post with first person statements doesn't mean he was stating his opinions as facts. One of the first things I was taught in school when writing research papers was that first person statements tend to weaken arguments.

I think strong opinions make for the most interesting discussions...likewise, calling someone out for something like copying and pasting lines from their other posts can be really discouraging. When I was first a member here, I had a particular proclivity for scaring people off. A few new members disappeared very quickly because I made it clear that I didn't like what they were saying or how they were saying it. I'm not suggesting that you're doing the same, I just think we have a responsibility to consider the impact out posts have on how comfortable other people feel about posting.

Hello...

I respectfully disagree with...err...everything you said there.

Emphasis on respectfully

Arkda Asterma wrote: I will say that V-Tog clearly has strong opinions of an opposing nature to mine but in fairness my intention was to push a few buttons and get a flavour of the thoughts and sentiments of the Temple and indeed it's members.

You don't know what my opinions are. I've been involved in organised religion my whole life but there are many aspects of it that I think are outdated, and sometimes unaccapetable. My post was not based purely on my own views of religion, but that you are determinedly posting anti-religious propaganda at a Church. As you think that religion is such a load of nonsense, I assume that you will be renouncing your oath and membership?

my thoughts exactly

Again it is obvious V-Tog that my clear anti-religious opinion has somehow offended your personal religious stance, which considering how such a tollerance stance is the rhetoric of most religions, I'm rather disapointed.

You seem very sure that TOTJO is a church, well that is for debate but let me remind you that the definition of a church is 'a place where a body of like minded people gather'. With that in mind and putting our religous opinions to one side, I still believe and have faith in a greater force that binds this universe and as such my beliefs are probably not that different to yours, I don't know!!

However you personal religous faith is nothing to do with anyone but you.

By your own definition then, totjo IS a church...the place is this site...the "body of like minded people" IS the vast majority of our members...and not to forget totjo IS in fact recognized as a legal church by both the u.s. government and the british government...and more importantly by the majority of like minded people that makeup our membership....

Arkda Asterma wrote: Again it is obvious V-Tog that my clear anti-religious opinion has somehow offended your personal religious stance, which considering how such a tollerance stance is the rhetoric of most religions, I'm rather disapointed.

You seem very sure that TOTJO is a church, well that is for debate but let me remind you that the definition of a church is 'a place where a body of like minded people gather'. With that in mind and putting our religous opinions to one side, I still believe and have faith in a greater force that binds this universe and as such my beliefs are probably not that different to yours, I don't know!!

However you personal religous faith is nothing to do with anyone but you.

that is true, but personal religious faith is different from the faith as a community

and that's what I think she is saying

we all believe in the force
that is the whole community belief, if not I am interested if you have an alternative

but V-tog who interprets this belief the abrahamic definition, which is not the same in one respect, but in dynamic it is the same as interpreting it through paganism or buddhism or even pureland rite

and that dynamic combined with the belief of the force is what makes us like minded individuals,who gather in this website

so by your own definition, like Ryujin said... we are a church

you don't have to believe it if you don't feel comfortable and you can interpret TOTJO as you wish

but please respect the majority here who do believe that

Well, this is gone a bit off topic, but here's my answer to the OP:

You want to know how to refute bible-based arguments against homosexuality. You also mentioned that you belong to a church that has no problem with it, and appoints gay clergy.

Here's the logical solution: ask your pastor or other church leader about the bible verse in question. Ask them why your church feels that way as opposed to the other. And that's your answer. A really simple solution.

Just as a side note, my personal feelings on the issue are not involved in this answer or in any of my posts.

Star Forge wrote: Well, this is gone a bit off topic, but here's my answer to the OP:

You want to know how to refute bible-based arguments against homosexuality. You also mentioned that you belong to a church that has no problem with it, and appoints gay clergy.

Here's the logical solution: ask your pastor or other church leader about the bible verse in question. Ask them why your church feels that way as opposed to the other. And that's your answer. A really simple solution.

Just as a side note, my personal feelings on the issue are not involved in this answer or in any of my posts.

here is how I see it

the real evidence against it are from Leviticus, the rules of the priest

and in the gospel Jesus said that The rule of Moses and Elijah were relevant
and he criticised the pharisees and the priests

continiuing, Moses had a very specific approach and that can be seen in his writing, or how he is written

but Leviticus has a very different style, so I doubt moses wrote that

I think there is nothing wrong with Homosexuality, I either embrace LGBT, or in the past I said nothing, because it was their time to talk.

If you are a christian who follows leviticus as evidence against homosexuality, I encourage you to look at the documentary hypothesis and give me your thoughts on that

Westboro is a family of lawyers and they protest controversial topics to provoke an attack so they can sue and get rich. They protest at funerals of dead soldiers and all kinds of disgusting events so they can get a reaction and sue.