Definition of Christianity.

Decimus wrote:

I have always commented to others that alot of christian beliefs have alot similarities to that of greek or roman mythology.
An example would be, Hercules coming from a human mother and a god named Zeus. Then you have Jesus being in the same way. Now if you look at it, Jesus was born in around 6 BC or 1st century AD (which ever you believe); then you got the Hercules myth concieved more than a thouand years before that. Interesting. They are probably other similarities if you look. I don't want to discredit anyones beliefs, these type of mythical similarities occur in other religions too.

Well actually, Hercules has been around for much longer than Jesus. The tale of Heracles is ancient, like the Iliad or Odyssey.

How else do christianity and mythology relate? Mythology is polytheistic, and shows more of the evils of gods. Christianity is monotheistic, God is good, always (in the new testament anyways)

The characters have several things in common, the exception being that in the bible characters that learn lessons get to live. Mostly in mythology they suffer for eternity or die a painful death.

I think the two have far less in common than we realize. I think if you are going to compare the bible to something, I would take Aesop's Fables. Both are loaded with moral 'fables', and put the lives of the characters in perspective.

Also, I don't know if this is true or not. I have heard that the actual 'story' of Jesus has been around alot longer than we realize. Dating back farther than what we believe. Maybe two thousand years before how it is taught today. Is that true?

KieranHalcyon wrote:

Decimus wrote:

I have always commented to others that alot of christian beliefs have alot similarities to that of greek or roman mythology.
An example would be, Hercules coming from a human mother and a god named Zeus. Then you have Jesus being in the same way. Now if you look at it, Jesus was born in around 6 BC or 1st century AD (which ever you believe); then you got the Hercules myth concieved more than a thouand years before that. Interesting. They are probably other similarities if you look. I don't want to discredit anyones beliefs, these type of mythical similarities occur in other religions too.

Well actually, Hercules has been around for much longer than Jesus. The tale of Heracles is ancient, like the Iliad or Odyssey.

How else do christianity and mythology relate? Mythology is polytheistic, and shows more of the evils of gods. Christianity is monotheistic, God is good, always (in the new testament anyways)

The characters have several things in common, the exception being that in the bible characters that learn lessons get to live. Mostly in mythology they suffer for eternity or die a painful death.

I think the two have far less in common than we realize. I think if you are going to compare the bible to something, I would take Aesop's Fables. Both are loaded with moral 'fables', and put the lives of the characters in perspective.

Also, I don't know if this is true or not. I have heard that the actual 'story' of Jesus has been around alot longer than we realize. Dating back farther than what we believe. Maybe two thousand years before how it is taught today. Is that true?

The Story of Christ as he lived it is only the 2000 years old we know it to be. But there were many prophecies of Christ in the old testement that were 1000 years or more before Christ was Born. Especially the prophecies of Isiah were extremely accurate in telling Christ's story long before his time. See the book of Isiah for more...

~Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

The mention of historical persons such as the Emperor and Govenor of Judea give the New Testament a historical setting. Also the mention of Christ in Roman writings give His person (Christ) an independent witness. Judging from historical occurances (the fall of Jerusalem), and the seven hills of Rome the seemingly fantastic Aopocalypse is given historical significance. This is claimed to have been witten so to preserve the persecuted Christians from death.

Yes, I will be an equal opportunity questioneer, seeing as how I don't believe in any of these religions. The more I learn, the more I question. I do tell you though, I've got much much more to question about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not that its doing any good, because I haven't seen a good convincing argument yet. Regardless, I will move on to another religion for a while, but rest assured I'll be back to this one. Which one? I'm not sure yet, most other religions don't get so mad when you start questioning their beliefs, so it will be less fun, plus I need to actually have someone of that belief system here at the temple to attempt to have this passionate discussion with. Since I don't know everyones personal beliefs that could be difficult, but many like Perris's for example is so very similar to Christianity it would be pointless to argue it, I could use the same arguments. The difference would be taking shots at the details that they believe, which admittidly I don't know alot about yet, so I won't be going there yet. I'll come up with something Tom, so it doesn't seem like I'm hounding you. (Which I'm really not, your just always the most vocal in defending your position)

As far as exactly What I believe. If I were going to catagorise it into a known religion, I would say that Taoism would be the closest, but I have found things in Taoism that I don't necessarily agree with either. Either way, even what I do believe, I don't concider a religion, I view it as a phylosophy. A template if you will. I also believe that what I believe is my own, and no one elses. That no matter how much I believe my beliefs are right, it is everyone's own responsibility to find their own path. I'm sure it is commonly viewed that my constant clashing with mainstream religions is an attempt to get people to believe what I do, but it is not. It is simply to ensure that those who believe, know what and why they believe what they do. That they are not just following the herd, that they have concidered other, and as many possiblilities before making their choice.

Good Day.
DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Yes, I will be an equal opportunity questioneer, seeing as how I don't believe in any of these religions. The more I learn, the more I question. I do tell you though, I've got much much more to question about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not that its doing any good, because I haven't seen a good convincing argument yet. Regardless, I will move on to another religion for a while, but rest assured I'll be back to this one. Which one? I'm not sure yet, most other religions don't get so mad when you start questioning their beliefs, so it will be less fun, plus I need to actually have someone of that belief system here at the temple to attempt to have this passionate discussion with. Since I don't know everyones personal beliefs that could be difficult, but many like Perris's for example is so very similar to Christianity it would be pointless to argue it, I could use the same arguments. The difference would be taking shots at the details that they believe, which admittidly I don't know alot about yet, so I won't be going there yet. I'll come up with something Tom, so it doesn't seem like I'm hounding you. (Which I'm really not, your just always the most vocal in defending your position)

As far as exactly What I believe. If I were going to catagorise it into a known religion, I would say that Taoism would be the closest, but I have found things in Taoism that I don't necessarily agree with either. Either way, even what I do believe, I don't concider a religion, I view it as a phylosophy. A template if you will. I also believe that what I believe is my own, and no one elses. That no matter how much I believe my beliefs are right, it is everyone's own responsibility to find their own path. I'm sure it is commonly viewed that my constant clashing with mainstream religions is an attempt to get people to believe what I do, but it is not. It is simply to ensure that those who believe, know what and why they believe what they do. That they are not just following the herd, that they have concidered other, and as many possiblilities before making their choice.

Good Day.
DK

I'm curious, is Christianity the one you have the most to question because it is the most practiced on Earth or because it is the one you know the most about? In fact all Abrahamic faiths (such as Judaism, Islam, Ba'haiism) have so much in common. They share so many values and ethical positions.

~Chaplain, Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

Br. Dhagon if you are looking for a good convincing argument as far as religions are concerned, then I think you will have a long wait. Most Religions try to answer to human dilemas and feelings and are not based on a \"mathematical\" type of system.

Christianity's popularity has nothing to do with why I question its beliefs, and only partially because its what I know most. I challenge Christian beliefs most because they more than any other try to convince others that their particular belief is wrong and Christianity is correct. I've never seen or heard of (not saying it doesn't happen, but surely much less) the jewish, or islamic faiths sending missionaries out to third world countries to convert them to boast their numbers. Or for that matter sending them into the streets wearing sandwich board signs telling others of thier impending doom according to Christianity's beliefs. Not to mention knowing as much as I do about Christianity and how many of the churches work and view the outside world, now as an outsider, I can see many of the hypocrocies of it all. It also makes it much easier to see the control trying to be imposed on the people by the religious leaders and community. So view it how you want, I do have a dark spot in my heart for Christianity, but this is not why I question it so thoroughly, I question it because of my experience with the world as a whole and the many things expected of the population with no form of proof and in many cases no explanation.

Also in my readings, the Ba'hai faith is not that similar to Christianity. The Ba'hai believe that all religions have truth and merit and that they all reveal a piece of the puzzle that is the one true religion, to worship the one true deity. I've been around alot of Christians and read a good portion of the Bible, no where did I hear or read anything that resembles a belief of \"all religions are atleast partially right\", in Christianity only Christianity is right. The Ba'hai make much more sense to me, but I still do not believe as they do.

Br. Hans, you are correct, I will be waiting many lifetimes to hear a good convincing argument where religion is concerned, even if they don't use any mathematical system, just a little ounce of proof would be worth a whole book full of words.

DK

Convictions to particular views seems to be a wide spread in the religious world. There are exceptions and of course alot depends on the individual.

In some Islamic counties to convert a Muslim to another faith means the death sentence. Friends of mine went on a holiday to Turkey and at the airport they had to remove the cross hanging on a chain around their necks.

I know that Mahayana Buddhists (Tibetan tradition) believe that Jesus was a good man and even to be illuminated, but that practicing Christians will not be able to escape Samsara. It is only through Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

During my lessons with the Mormons I was told that other Christians can enter the lower levels of Heaven but not into the higher. Because others do not believe in Jesus Christ their chances of Salvation do not look too good.

There are probably more examples which I cannot think of at the moment.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Christianity's popularity has nothing to do with why I question its beliefs, and only partially because its what I know most. I challenge Christian beliefs most because they more than any other try to convince others that their particular belief is wrong and Christianity is correct. I've never seen or heard of (not saying it doesn't happen, but surely much less) the jewish, or islamic faiths sending missionaries out to third world countries to convert them to boast their numbers. Or for that matter sending them into the streets wearing sandwich board signs telling others of thier impending doom according to Christianity's beliefs. Not to mention knowing as much as I do about Christianity and how many of the churches work and view the outside world, now as an outsider, I can see many of the hypocrocies of it all. It also makes it much easier to see the control trying to be imposed on the people by the religious leaders and community. So view it how you want, I do have a dark spot in my heart for Christianity, but this is not why I question it so thoroughly, I question it because of my experience with the world as a whole and the many things expected of the population with no form of proof and in many cases no explanation.

Also in my readings, the Ba'hai faith is not that similar to Christianity. The Ba'hai believe that all religions have truth and merit and that they all reveal a piece of the puzzle that is the one true religion, to worship the one true deity. I've been around alot of Christians and read a good portion of the Bible, no where did I hear or read anything that resembles a belief of \"all religions are atleast partially right\", in Christianity only Christianity is right. The Ba'hai make much more sense to me, but I still do not believe as they do.

Br. Hans, you are correct, I will be waiting many lifetimes to hear a good convincing argument where religion is concerned, even if they don't use any mathematical system, just a little ounce of proof would be worth a whole book full of words.

DK

If I remember correctly I said they share much in Ethical views and Moral convictions. I didn't mention anything about specific beliefs because of course they have large variations...

now with regard to the others...Muslims for sure should be the best of missionaries. The questions as I understand it comes out like this right:

Why aren’t Islamic missionaries active the way Christian missionaries are? Won’t Islam grow much faster and misunderstandings removed if there are good scholars to preach the faith?

and the answer is:

It’s true that Muslims today are not as active as Christians in propagating their religion, though the Muslims are expected by Islam to be the best of missionaries. Islam is a religion that should have the maximum number of missionaries because Da'wah (propagation of one’s faith) is obligatory / compulsory in Islam. The Holy Qur'an says:

“Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”
(Al-Qur'an 16:125)

But unfortunately Muslims are not doing the job. Moreover, there is virulent propaganda about Islam and Muslims by the international media. Today the number of misconceptions about Islam has reached an endemic and epidemic level. It is the duty of Muslims to clarify these misconceptions and to present the pure Islamic teachings, based on the Qur'an and the authentic traditions of the prophet (pbuh).

But irrespective whether the Muslims do the job or not, Allah has promised to make his Deen (Al-Islam) prevail over all other ways of life and all other ‘isms’. Allah says in the Qur'an:

“It is He who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.”
(Al-Qur'an 48:28)

A similar message is mentioned in Al-Qur'an 9:33 & 61:9.

It should be borne in mind that Allah is not in need of Muslims in order to make his Deen prevail. He, however, has given an opportunity to do a prophet’s job and to earn a prophet’s reward.

Allah says in the Qur'an:

‘Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness and says, \"I am of those who bow in Islam\"?’

“The calling of the church in every culture is to be mission. That is, the work of the church is not to be an agent or servant of the culture. The churches’ business is not to maintain freedom or to promote wealth or to help a political party or to serve as the moral guide to culture. The church’s mission is to be the presence of the kingdom. . . . The church’s mission is to show the world what it looks like when a community of people live under the reign of God” (Robert Webber, The Younger Evangelicals, 2002, 133).

\"The propensity for the Western church to accept the agenda of aid organizations as focal to the Great Commission has seriously skewed mission. Mission to the middle class is seen as proclamation. To the poor it has become giving handouts or assisting in development as defined by Christianized humanitarian perspectives. It is far easier for churches to give thousands of dollars than to find one of their members who will walk into the slums for a decade.\" -- (Viv Grigg, Cry of the Urban Poor (Monrovia, CA: MARC, 1992, 16).

\"A Christ-ian is one who has the Christ spirit. This is our understanding of the original meaning of the word. We suppose all will assent to and accept it as correct . . . . Men are Christ-ians according to the spirit of the Christ which is in them and manifested in the flesh. In some persons it is small, in others large. Either hidden or manifest this spirit resides in all. Consciously or unconsciously it is contained in every man or woman that lives or has lived.\"

Having long suffered the weight attached to the word religion I do not know how to define Christian. The Catholic Church says Mormons are not Christians and converts have to be baptized. Many Protestant churches say Catholics are not Christians and do not Hail Mary or venerate Saints.

What am I?

I believe that Jesus was a Zen Master who attained Cosmic Consciousness but is not the only son or daughter of God. I do not believe his body rose from the dead but I do believe his spirit did not die and that he appeared to people after his death in an Obi Wan Kenobi sort of way.

I see the amazing benefits of the sacraments and the comfort they provide and that, if nothing else, makes them holy.

M

So, let me get this strait. Muslims are supposed to be doing third world missionaries even though they live (mostly) in third world countries? We'll just say they should be doing missionaries period. But they are just being lazy or stubborn, or they realized that people that must be converted question the control imposed on them more, so decided to just corrupt their followers from a young age. (hmm sounds familiar?). And they are supposed to be more frivolent at it than Christians because it says to in their book of the word of their god. Does it not seem a little sketchy that it almost identically reflects what is says to do in the Bible, and if we were to read many more words of other gods, probably the same thing. THEY ALL CAME FROM THE SAME PLACE PEOPLE! Thats why the resemble each other so much. Haven't you ever wondered why these people don't like it, in fact many forbid their followers to research other religions. They're afraid that they will be enlightened by the possiblility of many other truths. I've seen it first hand, families disown children because they go to college and take classes on eastern religions and things to broaden their horizons, they don't want that, they want that same narrow view they have, its appalling. Your supposed to want a better life for your children and grandchildren, not the same or worse. These are the same people that strike down at first chance with their words those who believe that things from movies could be true, like SW or even the Matrix. Sure I may not believe it personally, but I atleast understand that if it were true, I wouldn't know until I leave this world, so it is undoubtedly a possibility. Anything is possible. What I have a hard time believing is that a god, any god would create a creature in its own image, and then because it disobeyed one of the rules that you commanded them not to disobey that you would not only punish them, but any and every decendend throughout time as well because of that one mistake. Especially a mistake that supposedly was cohersed from one of your fallen angels (read minions). To me thats harder to believe than a bunch of robots are farming humans to use like batteries because the humans of the past created them with too much AI. Thats just me I guess.

This thread has become more of a back and forth than a discussion, I'd like to see others views on this subject, if there are no other views, or others are too afraid to voice them, than this has truly become a church.

DK

Br. Dhagon, did you not know we are a Church?

\"We are an international online church in the process of building local communities.\"
-Front Page, TOTJO

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

What are the things that you see that are making it more like a church? I was not raised around religion. My grandmother used to listen to gospel on sunday mornings when she cooked breakfast for the family. That's what I think church is.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

Church is synonimous with temple.

(wikipedia) The word church is used to describe a building used for prayer, worship, or other public religious services.

(wikipedia) A temple (from the Latin word templum) is a structure reserved for religious or spiritual activities, such as prayer and sacrifice, or analogous rites.

Hmmm, sound an awful lot alike to me...in fact I'd say they are the same darn thing.

There seems to be quite a few people who feel they have been let down by religion, myself included. But before we completely scrap the experiences of millions of believers, we should grant this belief at least one good looking at. We have to look, because the whole truth about God is not accessible with the pressing of a button. It is up to each person to look, it is each person`s responsability to find out, and it is each person`s personal burden to accept the challenge of faith. Illumination does not fall off the back end of a lorry.

Are those who want proof for the existance of God not putting limits on the way God reveals Himself through that very question? Does the very demand for a comprehensible proof of God not make us blind to the proofs which are already available? Well I have to be honest, if I told my wife \"I´ll believe you when I`m convinced!\" my marriage would not have lasted a day. How far are we prepared to look beyond the ends of our own noses?

You are correct Tom their worldly definitions are basically the same. I said my definitions are different, I wouldn't expect you to understand whats in my head, just know that It didn't previously fit that description, but is getting closer, thats all.

Br. Hans, I have looked and looked into this religion. For several years I did everything I could to follow what \"God's word\" was, both from the bible and the word he supposedly spoke through sermons from the pastor(s) of a few different churches. The simple fact remains, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much work I did, it helped noone. Not myself, which is not why I was doing it, but it didn't make me feel like I was making a difference, or feeling even slightly warm from the supposed holy spirit, for doing the \"good works of God\". It didn't help anyone else either, in fact I realized later, that many of the things that we were \"supposed\" to do according to the church and bible drove more people away from the church than it brought. Of the many times I asked god to fill me with his spirit, to show me what he wanted me to do, I felt something only once and I'm quite certain it was because I lost control of my emotions, and cannot honestly say that I think it was anything other than an overpouring of those emotions. I know every God fearing man will say it was him, but noone knows exactly what I felt and therefore cannot say for sure it was anything other than that loss of control. So with all that junk being said, I have looked past my nose and given this religion more than a fair shake and chance, and it fell short.

DK