Another reason to support the right to arms...?

Not necessarily. My point was that banning guns doesn't necessarily mean crime will drop. So showing a graph with crime rates before and after could be something to look at. Or maybe not. I'm getting too tired to tell.

True. Banning guns doesnt mean crime will drop. Crime goes up for many different reasons. But guns are a very easy way to commit crime. In the story of the original post, do you think that person would have started running at that suspected animal with a knife and hurt "it" not realizing it was child? Would that person have taken out the car in the hope of running that animal over?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0mwIsAJt3g

Seems like a very quick and efficient way of doing a maximum amount of damage with a tool that was designed for that very purpose...

I totally agree. But whoevers stupid enough (or drunk enough) to shoot at a skunk (really?) may take out the car and run it over. Probably not the knife though. Or maybe a cross bow. :dry:


On a more serious note. I just hope that little girl is recovering well.

I totally agree. But whoevers stupid enough (or drunk enough) to shoot at a skunk (really?)

Well I think this is the main argument against gun ownership... Average joe seems stupid enough. And there's a lot of those guys around.

Average joe is definitely stupid enough, however we can't let the actions of the idiots dictate the flavor of the nation.

We have three types of people in the world. The sheep, the wolves and the sheepdogs. I found this quote that sums it up nicely.

“We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.” – Lt. Col. Grossman

I will stand as the sheepdog against any wolf, foreign or domestic.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because [strike]rough men[/strike] I stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Hence the argument to have only have qualified sheepdogs, specially hired for this purpose, carry the additional responsibilities of, for instance, tracking and shooting wolves...

Apart from feeling sorry for the girl in the original story I have heard nothing about the rights of the victim, what the consequences may be for her, what she may feel like. Without taking sides it did come across sometimes during this discussion that the real victim was the poor guy pulling the trigger who is in danger of having his rights taken away from him. But what about the girl or the victim? What does it feel like to be shot? Now I have never been shot, but here is an account of someone who has:

"My name is Jesse (online name Danny Bishop). I myself was shot–in the chest–on November 27th, 1994, at point-blank range with a .22″ magnum revolver single-action, convertable–to.22″ LR with alternate cylinder). The bullet was likely 40-grain; the type: .224 caliber high velocity (WMR–Winchester Magnum Rimfire, MAxiMag), with a nominal muzzle velocity of 1,550 fps, from a likely 6.5″ handgun barrel (applied pressure, point blank: 324 foot pounds per sq. inch). I can tell you–not from watching it happen–but from actually experiencing it, exactly what it was like. First of all, there was the most incredible, shocking impact you could ever imagine–equivalent with having an M-80 (quarter stick of dynmamite) go off in your shirt pocket–and I can tell you, I was sent reeling. It felt like I was thrown back good 2-to-5 feet or more, as my legs gave out on me. There was simultaneously, a feeling like a bomb went off INSIDE of my chest, and that of being jack-hammered through my chest wall–all of this, all at once. Then, everything semed to go into slow motion, as undoubtedly, a large amount of adrenaline was released from my adrenal medulla, causing my central nervous system synaopses to fire faster–like a high-speed camera, producing a slow motion effect. I was later told that the bullet (not surprisingly) ricocheted around in my chest like a pinball, first penetrating my entire chest mass, fracture and bounce off my left scapula, hurle back through my chest again, fracture a rib, and then bounce back through, trace a path around another rib (and puncture the pleural lining of my left lung), next flying straight into my spinal collumn, fracturing my T-9 and T-10 thoracic vertebrae, and transecting my spinal cord (I am now paraplegic). Feeling all of this, all at once, was equivalent roughly, I suppose, was like being shot three times or more, not to mention that waves of paresthesia (tingling) echoed and serged throughout my body. My feeling in my legs was gone, just like that, at the same time I was flying backward–into a chair and a desk. Oddly, at that moment, I was hell-bent on protecting my head. Finally, laying on the ground in that room, only a good 30 seconds or so post-impact, I felt my left lung begin to squeeze, and my breaths were agonizingly painful and teribly short. Every breath was a knife turning in my lung. Then, I began to loose my vision–like white-out erasing my visual field) as I began to go into hypo-volemic shock (low blood volume). I lost my ability to see temporarily, and could not tell what was going on around me. Then I passed out for what was probably thirty minutes. It was a darn miracle that I did not die, as a doctor later told me, the bullet almost ‘curved’ around my heart, within a centimeter or two of hitting it or a major blooc vessel (it could have easily hit me right in the inferior, or even the superior, veina cava, near the heart muscle, in which case death would have followed in 1-2 minutes or even fewer, and unconsciousness in thirty seconds or less. As to the question: ‘Does a person writhe in agony?’–No, I personally did not WRITHE in agony, like I had been lit on fire, but I was instantly thrown into the most excruciating, truly agonizing experience of pain I have ever known–and I have had chronic spinal pain ever since, being on prescriptions such as morphine sulfate, Dilaudid (hydromorphone HCl) and levorphanol tartrate. The reason I was not WRITHING in agony is I was knocked into a state of indescribable shock, and was incapable of much, if any movement. However, after waking up thirty minutes or so after passing out, I managed to sit up, despite my paralysis, and I still remember–even though my pain had deminished somewhat at that point, due… undoubtedly, to endorphin release–the feeling of warm blood pouring down my shirt, and adding tot he pool of blood underneath me, the veinous flow coming directly from the now hot, burning wound on, and in, my chest. I laid there for about four more hours before someone found me–I could barely whisper, much less yell, due to my 16% or so lung capacity, and as it turns out, nearly two liters… the amount of fluid in a large soda pop bottle, on my left lung… like a refridgerator crushing the left side of my chest–and by the time the paramedics got there, I was in utter shock. I was also beginning to hurt so badly again that no words can describe it. It was horrible. Hospitalization was no picnic either, let me tell you. Even after draining off the fluid once with a chest tube–a rubber catheter inserted through your ribs, into the pleural lining of your lung, they gave me what is known as positive-pressure respiratory treatment, and the inflation of my lung popped a blood vessel and caused additional pleurasy, and another ‘hemothorax’. Originally, I also had air trapped in my chest–a pneumothorax, which they had to releave with a cannula. That hurt too! After two additional chest tubes and having to bear down to force the reddish.-brown fluid out of my chest cavity and into a collector, I finally regained around 98% lung capacity, amazingly, and then–one month after arriving at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center in the Bay Area, California, I began Spinal Cord Injury Rehabilitation. I had to learn to deal with having little control over my bowels, having to learn how to do a ‘bowel program’ with suppositories, and the fact that I had no feeling in my groin–meaning no future physical sexual feelings, and no ability to masturbate–and still having a huge sex drive… how do you like that?–I had almost no way to relieve tension, escept exciesize, for endorphin release, and taking my pain meds. What made it worse was, before I was shot, at age 16, I had never had sex, and never had a girlfriend, eventhough I can say honestly I am, and have long been, a very attractive man. And even though I have had half a dozen girlfriends now, ten years later, dating was no fun… having to explain my limitations. In October of 2003 however, I had one of the happiest days of my life, howver, when I married my wife, Jennifer. My dad was my best man. However, even being married, and having a willing sexual partner, I find myself doing almost all of the pleasing, and I suppose I will never know what it is like to be inside a woman–to actually FEEL it at all–or orgasm therein. Any of you out there who have had there experience, count yourselves as lucky. Unless there’s sex in there Hereafter–and I hope there is… with my wife, I’m talking, right now–I suppose I will never know what sex is like. You have no idea how angry that makes me, and how much pent up sexual frustratipn a guy has after a decade of no orgasmic release. Hey, that may sound shallow, but TRY IT SOME TIME. It’s funny, though. So many people, when finding out I was shot in the chest, ask the same question. “Did it… hurt?” Um, yeah, it was the most agonizing thing I ever experience, and could ever imagine experiencing, and so I can definately say, ‘It wasn’t like a massage.’ But hey, I understand what fascination people have with pain and extreme injury. After all, before I was shot, watching action movies, I wondered what it was like. Some people have imediate endorphine releases and never have such pain symptomatology. I remember lying in bed, in the hospital, with this bloddy patch over theupper, left quadrant of my chest, thinking, “Wow. Was I really shot? Am I really shot??” it’s hard to believe, when it happens to you. And assuming, if you will, that there’s an Afterlife, I bet people, being delivered the news that they are dead, think/say to themselves, “Wow. Am I really dead? Dead?” Anyway, I won’t bore you any further. I’ll just leave you with, “Being shot–does it… hurt?” Yes, sir-ee, my friend. It most certainly… does. So now you know, like I have… for ten years. : )
Peace, Jesse (‘Danny B.’)"

I agree that not enough attention has been given to the “poor girl.” I know what it is like to be shot at, but I have often wondered what it would be like to be hit.

I know that my argument sounds like it has taken the position of pro gun rights, but it is not the point I am ultimately getting at. I would encourage people to be personally responsible! All too often something bad happens and everyone points to the culprit, in this case it is believed to be the gun by many. But it is definitely the idiot who did not exercise firearm safety, logic or common sense. I will NOT fault a child for looking like a target while dressed up for Halloween. I think that is awful what happened to her, but sometimes “shit happens.”

A lot of times when something happens, people want “justice” to be done. But real justice is pro-active. Instead of feeling sorry for someone that was victimized or angered at a selfish idiot why can’t we strive to make the world a better place? Real justice would be to have it so that such things did not occur. Since we can’t live in an isolated sphere of bubble wrap the next best thing is to teach people personal responsibility. Examples: Parents teaching and safeguarding their children, adults acting in an appropriate measure in regards to life and property, everyone operating under the principals of what is best for all parties. Far too often what serves for “justice” today is nothing more than polite vengeance.

There are “rules” to firearm operation and safe use. There are “guidelines” to good costumes for Halloween. There are parents who should have the safety of all around as one of their primary objectives. There are peers who should look out for our judgment calls and speak up when we are about to do something stupid. And there are those that have come before us to help guide, set the example and help teach us (even how to get over a bad situation). Life is not a solo game and we are all responsible to each other… perhaps we should start acting like it and stop pointing fingers.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Life is not a solo game and we are all responsible to each other… perhaps we should start acting like it and stop pointing fingers.

Right on...

Generally, when this stuff is presented, this stuff being a tragedy, it is seldom presented as a way to questions people's "rights"...

And, what about the rights of this girl? I agree completely... She should definitely be considered...

We cant prevent all tragedies.. We can be on guard against all of the evils of the world... All of the time... Cause "stuff happens"...

That said, what do we do?

My ex-wife killed a girl, my ex was stone-cold sober... MAny incidents went into the accident... THis is why I use auto mobiles as my 'comparitable'...

That family loss a child due to some crappy, comedy of errors... They sued, tried anyway, to get some monetary compensation for their child, I dont blame them...

They came after me as well as the ex husband... Said she was driving my car...

*sigh*...

You just cant stop it... You want to turn it into lesson? Dont do stupid stuff... Watch every step you make, every corner you turn, every time you point that gun...

And you know, even if you do all that, stuff still happens...:dry: There are just so many variables...

Of course we were concerned for the girl, but as you said, and I found out by researching the article the other day, she is alive, but was in critical condition...

I just searched again, and could not find an update... Because the story isnt her health, its the stupidity of a relative shooting a child...

Thats what makes headlines...

discordor wrote:
Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.” – Lt. Col. Grossman

I will stand as the sheepdog against any wolf, foreign or domestic.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because [strike]rough men[/strike] I stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

discorder, that was awesome. tho i prefer m-4's.