Another reason to support the right to arms...?

That said, what do we do?

Prevent average Joes from owning guns? Isn't that what the argument is about?

It's too late for that girl. She already got shot. She already knows what it's like. She was lucky enough to survive. What I'm worried about, are the other girls. And boys. And other people. And even them bloody skunks.

As I said it was a quote. And since it mentioned specifically standing in airports in camo fatigues with M-16s he's probably referring to a specific event possibly before the M-4 gained it's current popularity.

And to Ren, if we put all of our faith into only having qualified sheepdogs then who would protect us from the wolves in sheepdog clothing? There are plenty of them out there. Or maybe, what would be the standard of qualification? Only the military? Police? Average citizens who had attended an approved standards course? I would support anything that would truely reduce crime and violence, but sadly for most people the only thing that deters their crime and violence is the threat of violence against them or prison.

Most people meaning most people that would be willing to do such a thing, the majority of the world ARE peaceful people, the few just want to spoil it as always.

The older I get, the more I think we should all have 'mandatory military' service... Everybody, every country...

There are non-violent jobs, healthcare, communications, and others I am not aware of Im sure...

Like Korea, Norway, Israel and a few other places...

Wiki wrote: South Korea has mandatory military service of 21 months. There are no alternatives for conscientious objectors[53] except imprisonment. In general, with very few exceptions, most South Korean males serve in the military. The duration of service varies from branch to branch of the military.

Even if you dont want to, you begin to understand, and have that sense of self-pride that goes with serving your country..

And, you learn how to grow up, how to take care of yourself, learn safe handling of equipment, so many things..

I missed out on the military experience, my parents talked me out of it...

I have a Daughter getting ready to get out of the reserves... Im so proud of her...

Freedom of speech? You want the right to burn our flag, first, go protect it...

When rights (among other things) are handed out, they are not appreciated...

A little off topic, but yet I dont think too far... lol...

That's not completely true. South Korea has mandatory federal service. They can also join the police for those two years.

ren wrote:

That said, what do we do?

Prevent average Joes from owning guns? Isn't that what the argument is about?

It's too late for that girl. She already got shot. She already knows what it's like. She was lucky enough to survive. What I'm worried about, are the other girls. And boys. And other people. And even them bloody skunks.

True, which is why the example of this girl`s situation is so important in order to understand all sides of the argument: what having a gun means to the gun owner, others in the immediate environment, relatives and most important the victims themselves. There is more to it than presenting opinions, defending them, making decisions and acting on them. It is about being capable of putting yourself in another`s shoes no matter what side of the argument you are standing.

discordor wrote: Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.” – Lt. Col. Grossman

I had the opportunity to train with Grossman. Very nice guy. "Golf is for pussies." Loved every minute of it.

Jestor wrote: The older I get, the more I think we should all have 'mandatory military' service... Everybody, every country...

There are non-violent jobs, healthcare, communications, and others I am not aware of Im sure...

The problem I have with mandatory military service is that everyone (except chaplains) still goes through the same combat training. As a pacifist, I have no desire to be taught how to kill someone. Unfortunately, even those non-violent jobs you mentioned still get taught the same thing and often do have to use it at some point. Making military service mandatory for someone like me would essentially be a death sentence because I would sooner be killed than kill anyone. I refuse to kill a bug that comes into my home, much less another person.

Surtr`Amun wrote:

ren wrote:

That said, what do we do?

Prevent average Joes from owning guns? Isn't that what the argument is about?

It's too late for that girl. She already got shot. She already knows what it's like. She was lucky enough to survive. What I'm worried about, are the other girls. And boys. And other people. And even them bloody skunks.

True, which is why the example of this girl`s situation is so important in order to understand all sides of the argument: what having a gun means to the gun owner, others in the immediate environment, relatives and most important the victims themselves. There is more to it than presenting opinions, defending them, making decisions and acting on them. It is about being capable of putting yourself in another`s shoes no matter what side of the argument you are standing.

Well I agree with you Hans, but have you honestly met many people who were willing to do that? (I'm talking generally here, not just about weapon ownership)

And with all due respect; I would NOT want someone like that backing me up in any position. Front line or rear echelon. Mandatory service is never a good answer.

Well I agree with you Hans, but have you honestly met many people who were willing to do that? (I'm talking generally here, not just about weapon ownership)

Thank you Ren. If I am honest with you I agree with you too, which is really the reason why I brought this topic up in the first place. I wanted to see how people present their arguments and how far they are prepared to distance themselves from these.