An Unpopular Conviction

I have to disagree with you there, SF. Yes we do experience pain and suffering, but it's not for nothing. We are a species of reproducers and survivors, which involves reproducing, so I could just say survivors to encompass it all. To survive and allow our species to continue to exist, we must reproduce. I'm not saying that if we all stopped reproducing that we wouldn't have anybody left seeing that we now have over 6 billion people living on our planet. Not all pain and suffering is for naught. That is to say there is no unnecessary pain. For one to enjoy life one must endure trials and tribulations to get to the point of appreciation for their life. Nothing's free and there's no way for us to actually know why things are the way they are. We don't actually know if a newborn actually suffers. Maybe discomfort from first contact with a colder temperature than the womb, breathing the first breath of air, and cutting off the umbilical cord to stop dependency on an organ of nutrients and waste exchange are suffering. I don't know nor remember. The mother knows fully well what she's getting herself into, assuming she willingly got pregnant. Saying this, she knew that she would have to go through the pains of labor and childbirth in order to release the child from its fetal life.

Our suffering, our appreciation for life, and the way we continue on with such resiliency in tough times is what makes us human. Actually, it's more so that the way we are able to intelligently recognize these things and still continue our desire to live is what makes us a great species.

I understand how much our species loves war and inflicting pain, but we also love 'love' and compassion, peace and serenity. Otherwise, why would we seek it in the first place? We are a here for the experience; it won't happen anywhere else, as I'm convinced.

I respect your opinion, but it seems to be more sentimentality than anything, trying to rationalize it all because it sounds good and is normal. I'm not closed-minded; quite the contrary, I've formed this view over many years, but I am sticking to it. Perhaps I have seen a darker side of life than you all, and perhaps I am biased, and if so, I will be the first to admit it. But, I am also willing to call into question one of the fundamental processes of earthly life. You have to at least give me props for that

I adore The Watchman movie. Have you seen the Ultimate Cut that's 196 minutes? I won't spoil the movie for anyone but I can say that none of the hero's believed that the extinction of the human race was an answer.

Why do you limit this idea to humans? If you're right would it not apply to most all animals too?

Why do you choose to continue to live if not living is better? How do you know that a soul does not need the experience of this plane of existence to move to a higher one?

Please do not kill yourself. It won't prove the point. We'll only think you had untreated major depression and you won't be around to try and convince others.

I'm not anywhere near finished. I'll wait for your answers.

As we are all aware before ever joining this forum, we all have our own opinions and are entitled to them, regardless. I see where you are coming from, but I stick to what I think. I wouldn't expect you to do any differently. Actually, I don't expect anything at all; I've no power over your actions or speech, nor would I want it.

Ah, yes. Br. John, I would have gone into that, but I don't like making my posts longer than they need to be. As I've studied different beliefs and such, I have ran across that thought pattern as well. As a Buddhist or Hindu, I would be more inclined to believe I have a soul that carries its experiences from human life to other forms of life. As a Hindu, I'd also be more inclined to believe that I am part of the collective experience and incarnation of Krishna. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd hope not to offend or make false claims.

I can understand your point Star Forge. The first twenty-something years of my life were suffering with brief respites quickly ended. However, that same pain and trauma is what gave me the wisdom to recognize that my existence wasn't pain or suffering. Desire for things in the future and regret over the past were suffering but this moment, right now, in this exact space in time, held no such suffering. The "I" that we define ourselves as so frequently can only exist when placed in context of future and past and therefore only knows suffering. It is through seeing past this disparate self and experiencing existence and life as it is in this moment that we find what deeper meaning there is.

All of this I came to on my own through study and contemplation long before becoming Jedi and I suppose that is why I take so well to the Jedi doctrine. That said, I do not see procreation as immoral for I know that if I learned this, so can that child. Life lived is life enjoyed and only when we allow ourselves the prideful notion of the isolated self do we condemn ourselves to suffering.

You know you can free yourself from this forced suffering, right ? A lot of people tdo it willingly. Life is An accumulation of experiences, if you care nothing for the "reproduction" of matter and find the accumulation of experience more painful than it is rewarding, why do you, after many years, still choose to live this painful life?

Well, I wouldn't want anyone to become a parent who didn't want to. I say, as long as you aren't hurting anyone with your refusal to continue in the cycle of life, go right ahead! I won't stop you. I disagree with this depressive, nihilistic attitude, though. To me it sounds like you want to die and possibly take a few people with you in the process. Not saying you would do that but your seeming disgust with humanity reminds me of the movie Seven. I say, souls that want to be born will be born. I think you havent found a reason for living just yet cuz apathy is easier. I have faith that you will find a way through the Force to come to terms with the world..... Or you'll stay in depression and misery the rest of your life. It's up to you! It's your path!

Please don't be sorry you posted this. If you really believe in this you should have the conviction to spread the word.

I forgot some of my questions. I don't edit my posts except to correct spelling or to fix a link as a rule.

Are you saying that you find sex disgusting? Pregnancy? Childbirth? Babies?

What's your answer to all the people who say they're happy they were born even with all the unhappy parts of it considered?

What do you believe the nature of the soul is? What if (like Alan Watts suggests) your soul is not in your body but your body's in your soul?

Yes, Star Forge...

Maybe you think we are trying to convince you...

We are not...

We are offering our point of view, same as you.... Offering our opinion...

This is why you posted, right?

Or did you think we would all just agree?

Maybe you are looking for the reason to not feel this way,because it is a "unpopular opinion"....

We can tell you why we think, and what we think....

But, you will be the one to confirm or deny your own opinion to you...

Not us...

Ever read my "disclaimer in my signature?