Is the water live?

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31 Jan 2020 00:27 #349067 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic Is the water live?
Yes exactly!!! Opinions matter and just because yours does not line up with anothers in regard to spirituality and experience doesnt mean you just get to poo poo on others!

A true teacher would never tell you what to do. But he would give you the knowledge with which you could decide what would be best for you to do
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31 Jan 2020 00:59 #349068 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?
Subjective reality vs objective reality. We are but mud crabs to the birds swimming in the ocean of the air.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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31 Jan 2020 01:15 #349069 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic Is the water live?
So what does it mean for something to be alive? Because I could give you a definition that probably aligns with it's dictionary definition. Even then, I gave an out that if you're using it poetically you get lenience, but noooo people have to suggest that 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom have consciousness as opposed to say something else that doesn't.

Also I'm not the absolute arbiter of truth, but I don't have to accept it when someone decides to ignore the conventions of language that give language utility.

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"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
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31 Jan 2020 01:22 - 31 Jan 2020 01:23 #349070 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Is the water live?
Bugrit, Millennium hand and shrimp!
Last edit: 31 Jan 2020 01:23 by JamesSand.
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31 Jan 2020 02:01 #349072 by Alethea Thompson
Replied by Alethea Thompson on topic Is the water live?
Rex, Language certainly has it's usage. But some words are not fully defined. An example is "Religion". Its definition is very much disputed. In some definitions, Jediism qualifies as a religion, while in others Jediism does not.

Life, is also one of those words. Animism, to name a specific broad religious institution, believes that rivers, rocks, and such DO have agency- that they are animated and alive. They are not referring to it as a poetic form, they are literally assigning these "things" their own agency.

You don't have to agree with it, but I challenge you to consider this:
In a place where the Initiate's Program celebrates the value of other religious institutions to help us better grow and develop as Jedi- does it really do any honors to our path to rail this hard against a philosophical difference?
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31 Jan 2020 03:34 #349074 by Kuro
Replied by Kuro on topic Is the water live?
I believe the issue at hand here is that the original post asks not for an answer but for the thoughts of others. It seems that the intention wasn't really to have a debate (which has honestly devolved into more of an argument) about whether or not water is alive or not , nor to argue the intention behind the word alive itself, but rather to provide to the community your own views and (pardon the pun) reflections on how you see water and its properties and whether or not those properties fit the mold of what you deem as "alive" in your own spiritual, logical, religious or philosophical view.

That being said I personally don't believe water to be alive. I don't believe fire or any of the other elements to be alive either. I do believe in the Gaea principal, however not in a literal sense of the planet being alive as an organism, but rather in the sense of a collective consciousness being formed from the intent of every being on the planet coming together to create a larger presence.

Water is a source of life. It flows with the energy of the Earth. It travels until it can travel no more and then it rises to start again. I see water as a tool of life, perhaps even the original tool of life. It harbors a safe place for life to begin and it is an integral part of the life of every being on this planet. Even though I do not think water is alive that does not diminish its significance spiritually, religiously or philosophically.


As for Erinis' second question. . . .
which I find to have been largely ignored in favour of shouting our views about water . . .
I don't think that feeling gratefulness, happiness and joyfulness necessitates that one must feel the opposites of these with equal intensity. In fact I find that sometimes it is a reaction to the ungratefulness of others that reminds us to be more grateful ourselves; it is the sadness and joylessness we see in the world around us that can lead us to appreciate our own happiness and joyfulness. I think that you can't truly appreciate positive emotion without having experienced the negative, but this doesn't mean you have to feel both with equal intensity, though I will add a caveat that in my experience the people that I have met that have experienced the most intense negative emotions are those that truly know how to appreciate the positive emotions in life.
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31 Jan 2020 14:10 #349077 by Erinis
Replied by Erinis on topic Is the water live?

Kuro wrote: intention wasn't really to have a debate (which has honestly devolved into more of an argument) about whether or not water is alive or not , nor to argue the intention behind the word alive itself, but rather to provide to the community your own views and (pardon the pun) reflections on how you see water and its properties and whether or not those properties fit the mold of what you deem as "alive" in your own spiritual, logical, religious or philosophical view

Yes that's exactly what I meant, thank you for getting things back on track. My mistake, I should mention that sooner. But it´s funny observe how things always turn into arguments.
And next thing I found interesting about this thread that people are afraid to say what they really believe and using circumvention. Because in our society prevail "logical mind" against emotional/spiritual, so nobody wants to be seen as mad. I take your opinion about water and also I have my own. I agree with some point about water you said.

Have to admit that I let myself convinced about opinion of Rex, because I didn´t want to look silly. It´s great realization for me.

I see water as living organism, which connects solid matter and things together. Same as blood within body which supplies each organ
by nutrients and hormones. Analogy to water are emotions, which flows same as river.
Water is great teacher through it we can get to know ourselves - in sense of our emotions and understanding the flow of life. Next thing
which water reveals is quality of flexibility (water is adaptable to all forms) and where is barrier, there will overflow. Water is change, transformation.

I take all opinions, there is no need to convince others about first or second opinion.

Kuro wrote: I don't think that feeling gratefulness, happiness and joyfulness necessitates that one must feel the opposites of these with equal intensity. In fact I find that sometimes it is a reaction to the ungratefulness of others that reminds us to be more grateful ourselves; it is the sadness and joylessness we see in the world around us that can lead us to appreciate our own happiness and joyfulness.

Wow impressive! you know what. That´s exactly what happened and made me wrote this question. Because I was responding with the same intensity of opposite emotions
to certain ungrateful person. Some prophet out there ((:
But I was more likely about balance of the energy in case of emotions. I saw one video where was explained that the more positive experiences you have, the more you will experience its opposite with same intensity.
I don´t know if it´s true or not that´s why I am asking.

The second question was:
Is there any true, that the more you are grateful, happy and joyful the more you are experiencing it's opposite as well with same intensity?

- Phoenix die and transform into something new -
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31 Jan 2020 18:05 #349081 by Fyxe
Replied by Fyxe on topic Is the water live?
I dont get it. This place is a spiritual place right? A temple dedicated to pursuit of the mystical qualities of life? So why is science elevated to godlike status here and philosophy is a bad word?

A true teacher would never tell you what to do. But he would give you the knowledge with which you could decide what would be best for you to do
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31 Jan 2020 18:32 #349083 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Is the water live?
It's seems like that's the impression you're getting. But it's not what is going on. We temper science with philosophy and philosophy with science. We also use each to inform the other where necessary. It's okay, Fyxe. :)

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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31 Jan 2020 20:05 - 31 Jan 2020 20:08 #349089 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Is the water live?

I dont get it. This place is a spiritual place right? A temple dedicated to pursuit of the mystical qualities of life? So why is science elevated to godlike status here and philosophy is a bad word?


The Doctrine of TotJO says nothing about pursuing the ability to shoot mind bullets, or entertaining the idea of shipping off to valinor,

(My words) Jeddism is about good thinking and good action (take "Good" as "suitable to the circumstances, whilst understanding the bigger picture" rather than a measure on some moralagraphometer)

Some Jedi might believe (in an "Everything police" sort of fashion) that letting bizarre appeals to magic and whatnot slide as "tolerable individual belief" is against their particular code and try to root it out, for the betterment of all society going forward.

others take a different view, and I can't recall who said it, but the quote that spring to mind is (words to the effect of, as I don't recall) "It doesn't matter what the masses believe as long as it is safely imbecile"

Of course, one could then also argue that members here have elected to not be part of the masses, and thus are "fair game" for interfering with their superstitions and rituals.

NOTE, I am not the voice of Jediism, and I am a huge fan of Plato's Republic, and don't really believe that most people should be allowed to choose from three spoons - give them one spoon, and they can't possibly stuff up and select the wrong one, or, if you believe that the illusion of choice is what keeps the matrix together, then give them two correct spoons.



I suppose I could create the thread for trolling effect, but that seems like clogging up the internet tubes for no good reason -

Among "my people" there is a superstition about putting on "left glove first" before riding. I do it, but it is utter nonsense, I know it is nonsense, everyone else knows it is nonsense, but it's still a tradition/superstition.

So - should I create a thread at TotJO asking people about the mystical properties of putting left glove first? Perhaps I am being unkind, but that strikes me as being about the same level of relevance as whether or not the fact that water has all the properties of a liquid as proof of intelligent design, or if that means emotions have some kind of self equalising balance system (I would not even attempt to guess at the second question - I am not a psychoanalyst, my words would be at best irrelevant, and at worst misleading)
Last edit: 31 Jan 2020 20:08 by JamesSand.
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