Is the water live?

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02 Feb 2020 15:45 #349213 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Is the water live?
It sounds like what you are saying, Erinis, is that spirituality can happily be rooted in bad reasoning or in none at all. By no means am I one to stand up and defend the idea of spirituality in general, but still I think we can do better than say that fallacious arguments are par for the course in it. That something had to create us is not felt or intuitive, unless one is brought up to feel and intuit it. And if an argument form ignorance (i.e. "just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean its nonsense" type of stuff) is what it takes to maintain a form of spirituality, then, to my ears, that's more of a condemnation of that form of spirituality, than it is of the intellect that dares abstain from it.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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02 Feb 2020 18:38 #349222 by Ambert The Traveller
Water makes up a significant fraction of the human body, both by weight and by volume. By weight, the average human adult male is approximately 60% water, and the average adult female is approximately 55% water. The body water constitutes as much as 93% of the body weight of a newborn infant.

Most of animal body water is contained in various body fluids. These include intracellular fluid; extracellular fluid; plasma; interstitial fluid; and transcellular fluid. Water is also contained inside organs, in gastrointestinal, cerebrospinal, peritoneal, and ocular fluids.

(All the above from Wikipedia)

Allright, let's try some logic:

Would you say, you are alive? And does this include your body? Is your body alive? Wouldn't this being alive of your body then have to include the water that is a significant part of it?

Or let's assume the contrary and say water is dead. A baby would then be 93 % dead. Males 60% dead, females 55 % dead. Hm, probably the bones, too, the brain, all of it. Dead matter. No life to be found anywhere, according to this kind of materialist thinking?

I am afraid it not as simple as just applying some simple logics and deductions from arbitrary definitions.

Without water, no life as we know it can survive. Water gives life to basically everything we consider alive. Astronomers look for water on planets when they are looking for life. Surely, the occurence of life and the occurence of water correlate significantly.

----

"Who are they?"
"The Guardians of the Whills. Protectors of the Temple of the Kyber. But there's nothing left to protect, so now they're just causing trouble for everybody."
―Jyn Erso and Cassian Jeron Andor
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02 Feb 2020 19:14 - 02 Feb 2020 19:27 #349223 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Is the water live?
Here is an interesting article on the topic.

https://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/starsgalaxies/life's_working_definition.html

Warning: Spoiler!

People are complicated.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2020 19:27 by OB1Shinobi.
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02 Feb 2020 19:20 #349224 by Br. John
Replied by Br. John on topic Is the water live?
Why does that make water alive? Is sodium alive? You cannot live without it. Oxygen? Hydrogen? Can't have water without them combined as H20

Essential Elements for Life https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/General_Chemistry/Book%3A_Chemistry_(Averill_and_Eldredge)/01%3A_Introduction_to_Chemistry/1.8%3A_Essential_Elements_for_Life

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02 Feb 2020 19:35 - 02 Feb 2020 19:48 #349225 by
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Gisteron wrote:That something had to create us is not felt or intuitive, unless one is brought up to feel and intuit it. And if an argument form ignorance (i.e. "just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean its nonsense" type of stuff)

Yes sure, just because I can´t disapprove the existence of God it doesn´t mean its nonsense, but also you can´t prove it.
It´s like conspiracy theory, which has the same concept. Question is, do you believe that God exists because society said so? It´s not such long time
when everyone thoughts that the Earth is flat, also nonsense and look how everybody believed that.
I don´t say that the existence of God is impossible, I am just trying to show you that everything simply cannot be understood just by head.

When you put your hand into fire (as a child who doesn´t have knowledge about fire), the first reaction of body is transfer information
into brain though nerves which contains cells (made from water) in addition the water same as blood is conductive.
As Ambert said, your body without water, and everybody could imagine what would happened with body if this information from nerves wouldn´t
be transmitted into brain. In this case is whole logic useless.[/b]

Qui-gon Jinn " Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don´t think. Use your instincts"
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02 Feb 2020 20:55 - 02 Feb 2020 20:57 #349234 by
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Manu wrote: Ignorance, yet Knowledge. Though I can appreciate the ineffable aspect of "the Force"



This struck me as one of the most contradictory statements ever made!. Lol jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this. Instead the doctrine is a few lines defined by a single person and put up as something we are all supposed to agree to. And when we disagree on those things its said well that's ok individual belief is great and not all has to be followed. But present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!. Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!
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02 Feb 2020 21:02 - 02 Feb 2020 21:04 #349235 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?
Jediism doesn't prescribe a fairytale to help you sleep at night.... it invites you to build a subjective mindset to connect to objective reality given the best knowledge available at one's time. Not being like other religions is sorta the point... its better.

But back on topic, if we're just talking subjective reality and path, then yea water signifies a 'raft' of paradigms for me as the first conceptual domain in my top level training toolkit... which I see Wu Xing as representing in my take on Daoism. But water itself is just symbolic despite its associated attributes. I guess there is an argument for it to be considered sacred almost in the sense its one of the things required for survival, and as such can take special place in some embued perception of an engineered subjective reality (ie view).... but I wouldn't want to muddy that by placing expectations too much, things like that at that level need to be born of union between subconscious and consciousness, not just imagined and forced.

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02 Feb 2020 21:02 #349236 by
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It just floors me that jedi would rather stay ignorant rather than honestly explore these things.

The force is ineffable, cant be known? That is one bold conclusion based in ignorance.

What if it's actually not? But present even the slightest possibility that we might know something about it and get a this knee jerk spinnin that "well we dont know, but its Definately not that!" Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.
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02 Feb 2020 21:05 #349237 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote: Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.


Didnt you once try to make a rational case in defense of belief in santa clause?

People are complicated.
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02 Feb 2020 21:05 #349238 by
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How do you know it's a fairy tale? Why would you even say that? Can you prove your claim that it's a fairy tale? Why would you even write a fairy tale about it? Why not write what is believed about it? What is true for jedi?
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02 Feb 2020 21:10 #349239 by
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OB1Shinobi wrote:

Fyxe wrote: Its the embracing of ignorance over knowledge.


Didnt you once try to make a rational case in defense of belief in santa clause?



No I dont think so? But what if I did? He is an idea right? Something that evolved in culture over time and something that we pass on to the kids and actually take action to make real as adults? So is Santa claus real? Yes of course he is. Hes real because we are all real, he is everyone that has ever put a present under the tree for another with the name Santa on it. Jediism could be this same thing! Instead we play here and just fight with each other over these ideas and just pretend we are changing the world instead of actually going out and doing it.
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02 Feb 2020 21:31 #349242 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote: How do you know it's a fairy tale?


What you chose to believe in is up to you. I like my belief to be reflexive, open source, and deeply referential to objective reality :blink:

Fyxe wrote: Why would you even say that?


Because you just posted about the nature of belief in Jediism.

Fyxe wrote: Can you prove your claim that it's a fairy tale?


Prove what is a fairytale?

Fyxe wrote: Why would you even write a fairy tale about it?


You already asked that two sentences ago, see my answer abv.

Fyxe wrote: Why not write what is believed about it?


Because belief is a tool, some tools are complex and some are simple, find what suits you, but the framework of Jediism allows the range from simple to complex. It seems you either don't get it or don't agree and like to tell everyone else they are wrong... so feel free to ask yourself the same questions as you do here, or justify your own position as part of the asking.

Fyxe wrote: What is true for jedi?


Firsthand experience, trust, honesty, and commitment I suppose, but I prefer the term accuracy to truth.

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02 Feb 2020 21:39 #349246 by
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NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens. so what do you believe about the force? I mean what do you actually believe about its structure, where it came from, where its going and why it exists?

Then write about that and make it a doctrine. then live by it.
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02 Feb 2020 21:40 #349247 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote: ... jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this.

Correct. Now read what you wrote in that passage agan, take a step back, and think. Why is that so? What is it about a commitment to knowledge that makes people admit when they are lacking some?

See, it's very easy to just make up nonsense and proclaim it to be gospel truth. It's so easy, thousands upon thousands of prophets have done so throughout history, and more are coming up every day. What few were heard gathered a following and what retained it after their passing had it evolve into churches. And how many blood was shed in an effort to find out who is right in the end, who has any of their gods truly on their side!

There is no confronting ignorance without acknowledging it. No crusade starts by thinking there no lands to conquer. Ignorance is maintained only by and within those who think they have it all long figured out already, those who think they have nothing left to learn, that they have the definitive, final answers, the final solutions to all the world's problems. Knowledge, on the other hand, is accumulated by the humble. Not the overly virtuous pseudo-humble, who keep singing songs of their ignorance, hoping to be compared to Socrates, the wisest of them all, but those who rightly acknowledge and admit their limitations and work on expanding their horizons. Knowledge isn't grown in those who already know, nor those who think they cannot know, but in those who have yet more to learn and are willing to get on with it. Ignorant is not the one who keeps pushing the issues, begging to learn more, questioning themselves and those around them, and everything anyone thinks they know so well. Ignorant are those who'd rather have the answers handed to them, lest they ever need to think on their own again, as are those who make up their own truths, revealed to them by what they convinced themselves to be the ultimate authority - even if it is but their own and naught else - never to be challenged again.
Ignorant is not the one who doesn't know, Fyxe. Ignorant is the one who won't.


... present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!

That's incorrect. There are huge threads, even entire forum sections that operate well without any such constraints. Just because you got in a fight over scientific accuracy doesn't mean everyone has to. And you only got in such fights when ever you tried to claim scientific accuracy for your woo in the first place. That choice was entirely with you.


Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!

So... just like in every other religion, then? What's your point? What would you rather this be like? One Dear LeaderTM preaching before a bowing mass who all chant "Yes, Master!" at his every word? What's the complaint here? Is this too liberal for your liking? Too un-dogmatic? Too much about thinking and too little about obedience? Too much - dare I say it - about knowledge, and not enough about ignorance? About peace, rather than passion? About harmony rather than tyranny? What are you looking for, Fyxe? Why do drag every thread into this discussion and not leave them be about their respective topics? What is the problem?

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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02 Feb 2020 21:53 #349248 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Is the water live?

Erinis wrote: By that statement Manu, thus: Spirituality goes beyond logic, I meant that lot of spiritual teaching,
including religions aren´t usually understood by logic only, but by feelings and intuition also. You know
for example, God, nobody saw "him", heard him, but still, the assumption is, that something had to
create us. If you can´t support it by objective facts does it mean that God doesn´t exist?


Notice what you did there? The observation for God creating us is a logical inference based on the pattern that all living things are "born" from another being. So the idea of God still arises from logical thinking. Intuition and creativity are not against logic... it simply is a novel connection made by the logical mind between previously seemingly unrelated objects/events.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
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02 Feb 2020 21:59 #349250 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote:

Manu wrote: Ignorance, yet Knowledge. Though I can appreciate the ineffable aspect of "the Force"



This struck me as one of the most contradictory statements ever made!. Lol jedi here love their knowledge right? But then all over the doctrine here there are soft areas that skim over this tenet and ignore the actual fact that we dont really know anything about the force or consciousness or where the universe even came from. Every religion except this jediism has clear and exact descriptions of the nature of reality, how it got here, the agencies involved and the process done to make it. But the one religion that puts knowledge highest does none of this. Instead the doctrine is a few lines defined by a single person and put up as something we are all supposed to agree to. And when we disagree on those things its said well that's ok individual belief is great and not all has to be followed. But present something, anything outside of the realm of science and look out!!! You in for the fight of your life!!. Know why? Because the actual doctrine here doesnt really tell us anything at all. It's not a basis for a religion that people can get behind at all! There is nothing there but a bit of ghost turd fluff and so we are all left to try and define these things on our own instead of relying in a clear and concise written doctrine that we can start using as a base of common discussion. Instead we all just start wherever we are and let the wars rage!


How is the statement contradictory?

You seem to hunger for a coherent explanation regarding our origins and the mechanics of the world. You hunger for science, not religion, Haha.

Jediism as a religion is concerned with orthopraxy (how to behave) rather than orthodoxy (being told the nature of the world), and in general regard the different orthodoxies of world religions as archetypal expressions rather than hard truths.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
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02 Feb 2020 22:10 #349252 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens


Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?

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02 Feb 2020 22:41 #349257 by
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Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens


Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?



You are. What you are describing is faith not belief.
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02 Feb 2020 23:24 #349258 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Is the water live?
Ever heard of the story of the wine tasters? Same car - way side the ways of explaining the taste to them. To me - this is a great representation of what we are all trying to do with the Force at one time or another-
Can some believe and have faith that water is alive and some not ? Can two different ways of being and ideas dwell in the same room or place or even path ? How can what others believe change my direct attention? Why is that on my radar? These were questions I asked myself and eventually moved from them to new questions. One of the biggest questions I asked myself during my oath was can those who arnt like me - have the same freedoms as me? Could I find the same things they did or even more? Can they understand things differently than me- yet be talking about the same thing??

Chaplain of the Temple of the Jedi Order
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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03 Feb 2020 00:12 - 03 Feb 2020 00:12 #349261 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Is the water live?

Fyxe wrote:

Adder wrote:

Fyxe wrote: NOPE, wrong on all counts.

Believe is not a choice or a tool. You cant choose what to believe in. it just happens


Yes you can, I do it all the time...so who is 'wrong'?


You are. What you are describing is faith not belief.


How would you know? Feel free to clarify your understanding and how that applies to me!

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Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 03 Feb 2020 00:12 by Adder.
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