- Posts: 8163
Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
28 Oct 2019 05:13 - 28 Oct 2019 05:14 #344914
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Ones experience of being aware is not static, it can be if we cling to it, but it can also change dramatically. In that regard that consciousness can change, I define psychonautics as the capacity to change it. But I find it useful to have reference models and naturally its often easier to use who you were as a safeharbour, assuming it is safe :S
Obviously a lot of folk use a sledgehammer to open an envelope and think substances to induce biochemical changes are the best or only way to do it. But that usually crushes ones fingers or takes your head off your neck, proverbially speaking. Lots of spiritual traditions use other ways to fiddle with the noggin, but all people make small adjustments every time they learn something into their learn term memory AFAIK.
But I suppose we have to be careful about the language being used, to make any sense at all. I prefer to view it in terms of seen and unseen awareness. What I'm talking about is the interface layer between the consciousness that is our experience of being self aware, and the subconscious that is the mental functions associated with it. I call that an unseen awareness because 'science' has indicated that some of those processes precede the consciousness (seen awareness) in what I call the subconscious (unseen awareness).
NB: I use the term subconscious instead of unconscious, because to me the seen awareness is not a product of a system, but part of many systems. It just happens to be the one thinking its a the only one thinking in a meatsuit. I find 'un' is only appropriate when used in matters only dealing with the consciousness, which this is not. And to me the 'sub' is not a hierarchical association, rather the use of sub is about being just another part of the network that is not the conscious being referred to. In this regard then, my consciousness is a subconscious itself, of you the reader! Albeit a distant one filtered through your own subconsciousness lol
Anyway, my point is I feel we can only extend our inner light of consciousness so far with so much intensity - limits seem to exist. So yes, I do think there are levels of consciousness, but I find the apparatus itself has those limitations. If you demand more from something, it might take from something else. It's a powerful metaphor to consider the Force! One could define the conscious awareness as the light and the subconscious awareness as the dark, for example. Such that if one draw from the dark to spread their light, it might lead to changes in oneself that redress the imbalance which in effect lead to a perhaps unintended or even disproportionate requirement to focus on oneself rather then others.
The change I refer to which denotes levels, is that our experiences define how we define affordance within our awareness. We define things in relation to what they mean to us based on how we've constructed meaning itself. Exploring for exploration's sake tends to be the fools errand. Better to set targets of exploration in a way as not to define the result by limiting the search parameters such that none other is possible. But better yet, make the most of where you are already, or move somewhere where you can. We seem to only get one body so we have to be careful with it, and it only gets stronger for about 3 short decades before it starts getting weaker again!!!! If one thinks working is hard in your 20's, wait till your in your 50's... and the mind is the most sensitive of all organs probably!!
So I think levels of consciousness in practical terms should refer to levels of motivation. Escaping into ones mind to dig for treasure is a bit like acquiring an appetite for sand in a desert. I'd say a Jedi digs.... but for capabilities, ie power, more then anything.
That said.... the light can be shared among others!
:silly:
Obviously a lot of folk use a sledgehammer to open an envelope and think substances to induce biochemical changes are the best or only way to do it. But that usually crushes ones fingers or takes your head off your neck, proverbially speaking. Lots of spiritual traditions use other ways to fiddle with the noggin, but all people make small adjustments every time they learn something into their learn term memory AFAIK.
But I suppose we have to be careful about the language being used, to make any sense at all. I prefer to view it in terms of seen and unseen awareness. What I'm talking about is the interface layer between the consciousness that is our experience of being self aware, and the subconscious that is the mental functions associated with it. I call that an unseen awareness because 'science' has indicated that some of those processes precede the consciousness (seen awareness) in what I call the subconscious (unseen awareness).
NB: I use the term subconscious instead of unconscious, because to me the seen awareness is not a product of a system, but part of many systems. It just happens to be the one thinking its a the only one thinking in a meatsuit. I find 'un' is only appropriate when used in matters only dealing with the consciousness, which this is not. And to me the 'sub' is not a hierarchical association, rather the use of sub is about being just another part of the network that is not the conscious being referred to. In this regard then, my consciousness is a subconscious itself, of you the reader! Albeit a distant one filtered through your own subconsciousness lol
Anyway, my point is I feel we can only extend our inner light of consciousness so far with so much intensity - limits seem to exist. So yes, I do think there are levels of consciousness, but I find the apparatus itself has those limitations. If you demand more from something, it might take from something else. It's a powerful metaphor to consider the Force! One could define the conscious awareness as the light and the subconscious awareness as the dark, for example. Such that if one draw from the dark to spread their light, it might lead to changes in oneself that redress the imbalance which in effect lead to a perhaps unintended or even disproportionate requirement to focus on oneself rather then others.
The change I refer to which denotes levels, is that our experiences define how we define affordance within our awareness. We define things in relation to what they mean to us based on how we've constructed meaning itself. Exploring for exploration's sake tends to be the fools errand. Better to set targets of exploration in a way as not to define the result by limiting the search parameters such that none other is possible. But better yet, make the most of where you are already, or move somewhere where you can. We seem to only get one body so we have to be careful with it, and it only gets stronger for about 3 short decades before it starts getting weaker again!!!! If one thinks working is hard in your 20's, wait till your in your 50's... and the mind is the most sensitive of all organs probably!!
So I think levels of consciousness in practical terms should refer to levels of motivation. Escaping into ones mind to dig for treasure is a bit like acquiring an appetite for sand in a desert. I'd say a Jedi digs.... but for capabilities, ie power, more then anything.
the Force is what gives a Jedi
his power. It's an energy field
created by all living things. It
surrounds us and penetrates us. It
binds the galaxy together.
~ George Lucas aka Ben Kenobi
his power. It's an energy field
created by all living things. It
surrounds us and penetrates us. It
binds the galaxy together.
~ George Lucas aka Ben Kenobi
That said.... the light can be shared among others!
:silly:
Last edit: 28 Oct 2019 05:14 by Adder. Reason: formatting for fun
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28 Oct 2019 06:28 #344917
by Rex
Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
Replied by Rex on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
I say "bad faith" as in the opposite of good faith "bona fide"
Also consciousness requires a subject and an object: what are they for your 10 levels?
Adder makes a good point regarding our consciousness vs awareness. What our bodily "hardware" can input versus our mind can process are not necessarily the same, but they obviously have limitations that seem overlooked here
Also consciousness requires a subject and an object: what are they for your 10 levels?
Adder makes a good point regarding our consciousness vs awareness. What our bodily "hardware" can input versus our mind can process are not necessarily the same, but they obviously have limitations that seem overlooked here
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"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
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28 Oct 2019 12:34 #344923
by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
I think its easy to kind of merge ideas that somewhat obfuscate their original intended meaning; forcing upon those words a meaning more aligned to our own perceptions and wishful thinking.
What I mean by that is... for example... some people treat dimensions like levels in a video game. In reality we exist in all dimensions simultaneously because each (to qualify as a dimension) is simply a plane of existence of our own reality. But since we're trying to understand something in terms of a flat surface (like a map of the world) if its' not flat then it can't be limited to that model.
As far as consciousness...
I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. You can only see light within a certain frequency. So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered. If your brain waves are closer to that of sleep then you may have a different experience and perhaps your subconscious mind will get to be more in the driver's seat because perhaps it is usually operating at a different frequency all the time and so we're only aware of it at the points of intersection with the frequency used by the conscious mind.
At any rate, there's a lot of different ideas relating to consciousness, especially the kind that deals with levels. In this form, I believe we're talking more of a knowledge that comes from being aware where as the ability to identify things we are aware of is somewhat dependent upon the database of information we have to draw from. Some people find it very difficult to see certain things just because they haven't personally experienced it. Without that experience the mind has to rely on imagination which is based on ideas based on past experiences of its own. Information builds on top of information the same way a child goes from 2nd to 3rd to 4th grade.
What I mean by that is... for example... some people treat dimensions like levels in a video game. In reality we exist in all dimensions simultaneously because each (to qualify as a dimension) is simply a plane of existence of our own reality. But since we're trying to understand something in terms of a flat surface (like a map of the world) if its' not flat then it can't be limited to that model.
As far as consciousness...
I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. You can only see light within a certain frequency. So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered. If your brain waves are closer to that of sleep then you may have a different experience and perhaps your subconscious mind will get to be more in the driver's seat because perhaps it is usually operating at a different frequency all the time and so we're only aware of it at the points of intersection with the frequency used by the conscious mind.
At any rate, there's a lot of different ideas relating to consciousness, especially the kind that deals with levels. In this form, I believe we're talking more of a knowledge that comes from being aware where as the ability to identify things we are aware of is somewhat dependent upon the database of information we have to draw from. Some people find it very difficult to see certain things just because they haven't personally experienced it. Without that experience the mind has to rely on imagination which is based on ideas based on past experiences of its own. Information builds on top of information the same way a child goes from 2nd to 3rd to 4th grade.
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28 Oct 2019 14:31 #344926
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Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
subject and object are not required for force level consciousness though. thats what Jedi try to get to right? the rising up through the levels to the point where all that dissapears, or at least so we can tell the difference that there is no difference. to say we are connected is one thing, to know that we are is different. this is a higher level. We start out a shattered pieces and our goal is to put ourselves back together. we can do this through pain or through ascention. one way or the other it will happen, so why not avoid the pain? This is what the force wants for us. to rise by knowledge and understanding, not screaming and kicking like a bad child!
Until we get this knoweldge we recycle ourselves though the lower aniimal layers of the astral planes until they move on to guardian level where the spirit guides are. they are the ones that help us in the journey. after they do that for a while they get to shed even their energy bodes and become pure thought until they can asend to master level where the teaching of the force come from. above them are the very planes of creation and beyond that is the infinite itself. the realm of pure force energy where all things are one and all other things come.
Until we get this knoweldge we recycle ourselves though the lower aniimal layers of the astral planes until they move on to guardian level where the spirit guides are. they are the ones that help us in the journey. after they do that for a while they get to shed even their energy bodes and become pure thought until they can asend to master level where the teaching of the force come from. above them are the very planes of creation and beyond that is the infinite itself. the realm of pure force energy where all things are one and all other things come.
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28 Oct 2019 18:14 #344937
by Proteus
House of Orion
Offices: Education Administration
TM: Alexandre Orion | Apprentice: Loudzoo (Knight)
The Book of Proteus
IP Journal | Apprentice Volume | Knighthood Journal | Personal Log
Replied by Proteus on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
This isn't quite the same thing as what is being talked about here, but it is this idea that I feel is most realistically in play for us when we think of this, and in which I think we would get the most practical and progressive benefit from discussing, in my opinion.
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/121939-an-overview-of-developmental-stages-of-consciousness
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/121939-an-overview-of-developmental-stages-of-consciousness
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“For it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.”
― Bruce Lee |
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TM: Alexandre Orion | Apprentice: Loudzoo (Knight)
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28 Oct 2019 18:20 - 28 Oct 2019 18:23 #344938
by Gisteron
There is only so much space in our skulls, and hair cells the way our bodies construct them can only grow so long before their stability is seriously affected - not to mention the increase in volume of higher frequency modes if the ducts inside the cochlea are that wide. That gives a soft limit on the lower end of the scale. On the higher end the molecules involved do have a finite size and hair cells that are too short are not flexible enough to get affected by the fluid currents - which themselves are also dampened severely that deeply inside the cochlea. I can easily enough believe that some people can indeed hear below the nominal 20Hz. I myself am not sure I could perceive the nominal upper limit of 20kHz, but we know of animals that can. But nothing, I dare say, can hear the rotation of our planet, with one revolution per day. Nothing can hear some 20MHz either, because detecting sound comes down to mechanics, and devices that do it are constructed from atoms of finite size with finitely strong forces between them.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Replied by Gisteron on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Yes, indeed. But is this just some mystical restriction upon the human condition, or a consequence of the way our bodies are built? If the way our hearing mechanism is constructed is the reason we can only hear sounds within a certain frequency range, then there is precious little we can do to "transcend" that, no matter how hard we "open ourselves to the possibility".ZealotX wrote: As far as consciousness...
I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. [sic]
There is only so much space in our skulls, and hair cells the way our bodies construct them can only grow so long before their stability is seriously affected - not to mention the increase in volume of higher frequency modes if the ducts inside the cochlea are that wide. That gives a soft limit on the lower end of the scale. On the higher end the molecules involved do have a finite size and hair cells that are too short are not flexible enough to get affected by the fluid currents - which themselves are also dampened severely that deeply inside the cochlea. I can easily enough believe that some people can indeed hear below the nominal 20Hz. I myself am not sure I could perceive the nominal upper limit of 20kHz, but we know of animals that can. But nothing, I dare say, can hear the rotation of our planet, with one revolution per day. Nothing can hear some 20MHz either, because detecting sound comes down to mechanics, and devices that do it are constructed from atoms of finite size with finitely strong forces between them.
And again it raises the question, can there be any amount of mind one can put to it to overcome this limitation or are there real physical boundaries playing outside of which is just entirely unrealistic? Again, I maintain, that there is such a thing as the photoelectric effect. To affect an atom or molecule with a light particle, it has to carry some minimal amount of energy, i.e. it needs to have a sufficiently high frequency to even interact at all with the light-sensitive cell. Likewise, the states it can then change the molecule to is determined by the individual atoms and their arrangement in it. So there is a limit to how high a photon's frequency can be before it is no longer able to interact with any part of the retina at all anymore.You can only see light within a certain frequency.
I admit, it probably isn't as simple as I've been picturing it so far. I'm sure a biologist or physician can do the topic much more justice than I can make any attempt to. But even admitting to any technical mistakes I may be making here, these limitations are a matter of physics, not a matter of attitude. We can try and tune our senses, train ourselves to pay more attention to more subtle things they pick up, but they can only pick up so much. And soft as the limits are, they are not arbitrary. No human eye can hear a 100kHz sound or a 3Hz one. No human eye can see a radio wave, or an X-ray. And no amount of awareness alteration can make those things happen any more than they can enable one to jump straight into outer space from the ground, using nothing but a pair of plain old human legs.So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered.
Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
Last edit: 28 Oct 2019 18:23 by Gisteron.
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28 Oct 2019 20:42 #344944
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Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
I cant see that proteus??
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28 Oct 2019 21:15 #344946
by Proteus
Sorry about that Fyxe, I forgot that only members can access the forum the thread was posted in. I've provided quoted material from the thread here in the spoilers. I hope you find it engaging on your own personal level to look further into it! It was my apprentice Loudzoo who originally posted this.
Link to a video on Spiral Dynamics, relevant to the topic (Courtesy of Arisaig):
https://youtu.be/23aDNBvn_2g
Image chart related to the above video, organizing the relevant information:
House of Orion
Offices: Education Administration
TM: Alexandre Orion | Apprentice: Loudzoo (Knight)
The Book of Proteus
IP Journal | Apprentice Volume | Knighthood Journal | Personal Log
Replied by Proteus on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Fyxe wrote: I cant see that proteus??
Sorry about that Fyxe, I forgot that only members can access the forum the thread was posted in. I've provided quoted material from the thread here in the spoilers. I hope you find it engaging on your own personal level to look further into it! It was my apprentice Loudzoo who originally posted this.
Warning: Spoiler!
Loudzoo wrote: I posted the following in my degree journal but not many people can see it there, so I thought I'd throw it on here. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as it is long and will take effort to understand!! Its also a work in progress so don't hold back on criticism
Developmental psychologists have identified numerous features of an individual’s consciousness, such as cognition (what one is aware of), values (what one considers most important), and identity (how one self-identifies, and how others identify you). These features of consciousness develop through recognizable stages, each stage revealing a markedly different understanding of the world. The following is heavily based on this: https://integralwithoutborders.net/sites/default/files/resources/Overview%20of%20Developmental%20Levels.pdf
This is going to be a long [...] and all I ask is that people read it thoroughly before commenting or judging it. If that means that nobody comments, then fair enough! However, I believe this analysis can be a powerful tool in understanding why the Temple suffers from the drama it does. The analysis provides a crude map to navigate the level of consciousness that we, and anyone else may be operating at – at any given time. Once we can identify a level of consciousness from which a comment is made, or a forum post originates, perhaps we can respond more appropriately and more constructively.
If we are to be sincere in our study, and in our wish to understand ourselves and other people better, then an hour or two spent considering this work is a small price to pay.
Described below are eight stages of consciousness as understood through research about the unfolding development of values and identity. There are other developmental lines besides the values and identity lines selected here; however, these are two of the most important. Each stage of consciousness is identified with a colour, for easy reference.
It is important to recognize that these “stages” are not strict levels, like rungs on a ladder. They are more like loosely delineated areas along a spectrum of development. Thus, a stage is more like a probability wave than a concrete level of consciousness.
Its also important to realise that an individual can operate at multiple levels at the same time and can move across the spectrum through choice, practice, or through reaction to environmental stimuli.
The stages below are divided into egocentric stages (Infrared, Magenta, and Red), ethnocentric (Amber), worldcentric (Orange and Green), and cosmocentric stages (Teal, Turquoise, and Indigo).
Before we start, a few health warnings:
- Later stages are not necessarily ‘better’ or more effective at dealing with what existence throws at us
- Society, until it fully evolves, probably ‘needs’ people to operate at different stages to function effectively
- Those who typically operate at a ‘later’ stage should not look down on those typically living on an ‘earlier’ stage. Rather, those at a later stage often rely on those at an earlier stage
- Earlier stages of consciousness are not completely discarded at later levels of consciousness, rather they should be integrated
- There is significant diversity in how consciousness manifests in behaviour at any given stage which is moderated by personality type, education, culture, age, experience, competence etc
- This analysis is far from complete or perfect. It can and should be improved on.
- People typically self-identify 1-2 stages later than they actually are!
Loudzoo wrote: EGOCENTRIC STAGES
The Infrared Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Staying alive.
Basic theme: Do what you must just to stay alive
What’s important: food, water, shelter, warmth, intimacy, and safety; the use of habits and instincts for survival
Where seen: early humans and other hominids; some animals, new born infants; senile elderly; late-stage Alzheimer’s victims; certain mentally illnesses; victims of war, natural disaster etc; Jean Auel’s Clan of the Cave Bear
Method: Scavenge what you need
Identity: The Instinctive Self
Age: 0 – 1.5 years
Description: The self is undifferentiated, meaning that it cannot take a perspective on itself and the other is seen as fused with—or not distinct from—the self. Adults at this stage are may be pre- or nonverbal and often institutionalized or completely dependent on the protection and care of others.
How influences others: Engenders pity and caring behaviours in others
Pitfalls: desperation, destruction, psychological pathologies
The Magenta Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Safety and security.
Basic theme: Keep the spirits / gods happy and the ‘tribe’ warm and safe
What’s important: allegiance to chief, elders, ancestors, and the clan; obeying the desires of spirit beings and mystical signs; preserving sacred objects, places, events, and memories; rites of passage, seasonal cycles, and tribal customs; kinship and lineage
Where seen: Belief in voodoo-like curses and good-luck charms; family rituals; ancient grudges; magical ethnic beliefs and superstitions; strong in some less developed countries, gangs, sports teams, and corporate ‘tribes’
Method: Petition to Spirits, Gods or Powers with ritual
Identity: Magic / Anamistic Self
Age: 1-3 years
Main focus: safety and gratification of basic needs; following one’s impulses
Description: Often found in very young children, who are governed by their impulses; adults at this stage have an inadequate conception of the complexities of life and may easily feel confused and overwhelmed; have an expedient morality (actions are only bad if one is caught)
How influences others: Temper tantrums, taking (stealing) what they want, withdrawal
Pitfalls: tribal conflicts, narcissism, omnipotent fantasy
The Red Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Power and action.
Basic theme: Be what you are and do what you want, regardless
What’s important: Power, spontaneity, heroism, immediate gratification; standing tall, calling the shots, receiving respect, and getting attention; being daring, impulsive, and enjoying oneself without regret; conquering, outsmarting, dominating
Where seen: The ‘terrible twos’; rebellious youth; frontier mentalities; feudal kingdoms; epic heroes; wild rock stars; gang leaders; soldiers of fortune, the Sith?
Method: align with power, take what you need, power over others, force, violence
Identity: The Power Self
Age: 3 – 6 years
Main focus: Own immediate needs, opportunities, self-protection
Description: First step toward self-control of impulses; sense of vulnerability and guardedness; fight/flight response is very strong; very attack-oriented and win/lose in nature; short-term horizon; focus on concrete things and personal advantage; sees rules as loss of freedom; feedback heard as an attack
How influences others: Takes matter into own hands, coerces, wins fight
Pitfalls: gangs, anxiety, depression, phobias, bullying, terrorism
Loudzoo wrote: ETHNOCENTRIC STAGE
The Amber Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Stability and purposeful life.
Basic theme: Life has meaning, direction, and purpose with predetermined outcomes
What’s important: Sacrificing self for a transcendent Cause, (secular or religious) Truth, Mission, future reward; laws, regulations, and rules; discipline, character, duty, honour, justice, and moral fibre; righteous living; controlling impulsivity through guilt; following absolutistic principles of right and wrong, black and white; being faithful, maintaining order and harmony; one right way to think/do; convention, conformity
Where seen:Puritan America, Confucian China, Dickensian England, Singapore discipline; totalitarianism; codes of chivalry and honour; charitable good deeds; religious fundamentalism (e.g., Christian and Islamic); “moral majority”; patriotism
Method: Fit-in, follow rules, don’t exceed rules, discipline, faith
Identity: Rule / Role Self
Age: 7-8 years
Main focus: Socially expected behaviour, approval
Qualities: Emergence of capacity to see and respond to what others want; self-identity defined by relationship to group, whose values impart strong sense of “shoulds” and “oughts”; values that differ from one’s own are denigrated or avoided; conform to norms of whatever group they want to belong to (including gangs and peer-groups); avoid inner and outer conflict; think in simple terms and speak in generalities and platitudes; attend to social welfare of own group; “us vs. them” mentality; feedback heard as personal disapproval
How influences others: Enforces existing social norms, encourages, cajoles, requires conformity with protocol to get others to follow
Pitfalls: archetypal role identification, script pathology, literal interpretation, fundamentalism, fascism
Loudzoo wrote: WORLDCENTRIC STAGES
The Orange Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Success and autonomy.
Basic theme: Act in your own self-interest by playing the game to win
What’s important: Progress, prosperity, optimism, and self-reliance; strategy, risk-taking, and competitiveness; goals, leverage, professional development, and mastery; rationality, objectivism, demonstrated results, technology, and the power of science; use of the earth’s resources to spread the abundant “good life”; advance by learning nature’s secrets and seeking the best solutions
Where seen: The Enlightenment; Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged; Wall Street; emerging middle classes around the world; colonialism, political gamesmanship; sales and marketing field; fashion and cosmetics industries; Chambers of Commerce; the Cold War; materialism; The Riviera, Rodeo Drive
Method: science, learn to excel, set goals, measure success
Self-Identity: The Rational Self
Age: 9 - 14 years
Main focus: Delivery of results, effectiveness, goals; success within the system
Qualities: Primary elements of adult “conscience” are present, including long-term goals, ability for self-criticism, and a deeper sense of responsibility. Interested in causes, reasons, consequences, and the effective use of time; future-oriented and proactive; initiator rather than pawn of system; blind to subjectivity behind objectivity; feel guilt when not meeting own standards or goals; behavioural feedback accepted
How influences others: Provides logical argument, data, experience; makes task/goal-oriented contractual agreements
Pitfalls: scientism, identity crisis, consumerism, ecological crisis, workaholism, goal-fixation, denial of spirit
The Green Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Community harmony and equality.
Basic theme: Seek peace within the inner self and explore, with others, the caring dimensions of community
What’s important: Sensitivity to others and the environment; feelings and caring (in response to the cold rationality of Orange); harmony and equality; reconciliation, consensus, dialogue, participation, relationships, and networking; human development, bonding and spirituality; diversity and multiculturalism; relativism and pluralism; freeing the human spirit from greed, dogma, and divisiveness; distributing the earth’s resources and opportunities equally among all
Where seen: Frequently visible in the helping professions (e.g., health care, education, and feelings-oriented business activities); John Lennon’s Imagine; Netherlands’ idealism; sensitivity training; cooperative inquiry; postmodernism; politically correct; human rights and diversity issues
Methods: appreciate diverse views, listen well, consensus, emphasize group needs, aim to marginalise nobody
Identity: The Sensitive Self
Age: 15 – 21 years
Main focus: Self in relation to the system and in interaction with the system
Qualities: Makes decisions based upon their own view of reality; aware that interpreting reality “always depends on the position of the observer”; more tolerant of oneself and others due to awareness of life’s complexity and individual differences; questions old identities; more interested in personal accomplishments independent of socially sanctioned rewards; increased understanding of complexity, systemic connections, and unintended effects of actions; begins to question own assumptions and those of others; talks of interpretations rather than truth; systematic problem solving; begins to seek out and value feedback
How influences others: Adapts (ignores) rules when needed, or invents new ones; discusses issues and airs differences
Pitfalls: nihilism, inauthenticity, excessive relativism, lack of discernment, endless consensus, lack of irony, can easily be reverted to Red Stage when provoked
Loudzoo wrote: COSMOCENTRIC STAGES
The Teal Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Qualities and responsibilities of being.
Basic theme: Live fully and responsibly as what you are and learn to become
What’s important: The magnificence of existence (over material possessions); flexibility, spontaneity, and functionality; knowledge and competency (over rank, power, status); the integration of differences into interdependent, natural flows; complementing egalitarianism with natural hierarchies of experience and competence; recognition of overlapping dynamic systems and natural hierarchies in any context
Where seen: Peter Senge’s organizations; W. Edward Deming’s objectives; Stephen Hawking’s Brief History of Time; chaos and complexity theories; eco-industrial parks (using each other’s outflows as raw materials)
Methods: Introspection, Contemplation, integration of diversity with discernment, informed action
Identity: Integral Self
Age: any
Main focus: Linking theory and principles with practice; dynamic systems interactions
Qualities: Comprehends multiple interconnected systems of relationships and processes; able to deal with conflicting needs and duties in constantly shifting contexts; recognizes the need for autonomy while parts of a system are interdependent; recognizes higher principles, social construction of reality, complexity and interrelationships; problem identifying, not just creative problem solving; aware of paradox and contradiction in system and self; sensitive to unique market niches, historical moment, larger social movements; creates “positive-sum” games; aware of own power (and perhaps tempted by it); seeks feedback from others and environment as vital for growth and making sense of world.
How influences others: Leads in reframing, reinterpreting situation so that decisions support overall principle, strategy, integrity, and foresight
Pitfalls: aborted self-actualisation, existential angst, bad faith, low energy
The Turquoise Stage of Consciousness
Values
Bottom line: Global order and renewal.
Basic theme: Experience the wholeness of existence through mind and spirit
What’s important: Holistic, intuitive thinking and cooperative actions; waves of integrative energies; uniting feeling with knowledge; seeing the self as both distinct and a blended part of a larger, compassionate whole; recognition that everything connects to everything else in ecological alignments; universal order, but in a living, conscious fashion not based on external rules (amber) or group bonds (green); the possibility and actuality of a “grand unification”; the detection of harmonics, mystical forces, and the pervasive flow-states that permeate any organization
Where seen: David Bohm’s theories; Rupert Sheldrake’s work on morphic fields; Gandhi’s ideas of pluralistic harmony; Mandela’s pluralistic integration; integral-holistic systems thinking
Method: Collective Individualism
Identity: Holistic Self
Age: any
Main focus: Interplay of awareness, thought, action, and effects; transforming self and others
Qualities: Highly aware of complexity of meaning making, systemic interactions, and dynamic processes; seeks personal and spiritual transformation and supports others in their life quests; creates events that become mythical and reframe meaning of situations; may understand “ego” as a “central processing unit” that actively creates a sense of identity; increasingly sensitive to the continuous “re-storying” of who one is; may recognize ego as most serious threat to future growth; continually attend to interaction among thought, action, feeling, and perception as well as influences from and effects on individuals, institutions, history and culture; treat time and events as symbolic, analogical, metaphorical (not merely linear, digital, literal); may feel rarely understood in their complexity by others
How influences others: Reframes, turns inside-out, upside-down, clowning, holding up mirror to society; often works behind the scenes
Pitfalls: Pathologies (Dark Night) of the Soul
The Indigo Stage of Consciousness
Values
Basic Theme: Integration of Paradox, no fear. Powerful action and non-action without attachment to outcome
Where seen: Jesus, Buddha etc
Method: Realisation as a verb, not a destination
Identity: Unitive Self
Main focus: Being, non-controlling consciousness; witnessing flux of experience and states of mind
Qualities: Emergence of a perspective that is ego-transcendent or universal; people holding this stage of consciousness seem to “…experience themselves and others as part of ongoing humanity, embedded in the creative ground, fulfilling the destiny of evolution” (Cook-Greuter, 2002, p. 32); consciousness ceases to appear as a constraint but rather as one more phenomenon that can be foreground or background; an integration of feelings of belongingness and separateness occurs; multiple points of view can be taken effortlessly; the pattern of constant flux and change becomes the context for feeling at home; one is able to respect the essence in others, no matter how different they may be; one is in tune with their life’s work as “a simultaneous expression of their unique selves” and as part of their shared humanity.
How influences others: inspiration and awe which may lead to persecution by those at earlier levels
Pitfalls: Everything and Nothing, perception of ‘unachievability’
Loudzoo wrote: Some basic initial implications / conclusions
Much of western society is trying to move from the orange stage to the green stage – this is painful for those operating at amber and orange stages. Adding to this growing pain is that some people operating at the red stage are being employed to facilitate this. It also seems that some of those at the green stage wish to discard, rather than integrate the earlier stages.
It can be very difficult, but not impossible, for those at different stages to communicate effectively. For instance, if a thread on TOTJO coming from the green stage isn’t aware of later stages, a critical response from the teal stage can be misinterpreted as coming from the magenta stage.
The later stages are much less well understood than the earlier stages as the number of people at these stages are so few.
Correct identification of stage will allow more effective communication, better judgment, and better behavioural outcomes.
The Star Wars movies superficially operate across magenta, red and amber stages although modest scholarship allows an obvious set of interpretations at Cosmocentric stages. Jediism is attempting to do this – but without the above framework, that work and its utility, will be more difficult than necessary.
Link to a video on Spiral Dynamics, relevant to the topic (Courtesy of Arisaig):
https://youtu.be/23aDNBvn_2g
Image chart related to the above video, organizing the relevant information:
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“For it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.”
― Bruce Lee |
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28 Oct 2019 21:18 #344947
by ZealotX
Operating within a limiting range is absolutely a good thing. Imagine if you could hear people's thoughts. How soon before you wouldn't want to talk to anyone? If we had "better vision" would it really be better? Or would we see a lot of "excess data" that our brains would have to work harder to make sense of. Sure animals sometimes have better hearing but maybe they only see in black and white or have some other limitation. These input limitations make it so we're not processing more information than we can handle. Same with memory. We don't remember everything; even if we think we do. The brain prioritizes information and uses imagination to fill the gaps in memory that it doesn't actually save. Imagine hearing things from far beyond your range of vision. Would you ever get to sleep at night? We already buy eye masks and think curtains to block outside light. Imagine if we didn't have eye lids. Limitations can be extremely useful and functional.
Replied by ZealotX on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Gisteron wrote:
Yes, indeed. But is this just some mystical restriction upon the human condition, or a consequence of the way our bodies are built? If the way our hearing mechanism is constructed is the reason we can only hear sounds within a certain frequency range, then there is precious little we can do to "transcend" that, no matter how hard we "open ourselves to the possibility". There is only so much space in our skulls, and hair cells the way our bodies construct them can only grow so long before their stability is seriously affected - not to mention the increase in volume of higher frequency modes if the ducts inside the cochlea are that wide. That gives a soft limit on the lower end of the scale. On the higher end the molecules involved do have a finite size and hair cells that are too short are not flexible enough to get affected by the fluid currents - which themselves are also dampened severely that deeply inside the cochlea. I can easily enough believe that some people can indeed hear below the nominal 20Hz. I myself am not sure I could perceive the nominal upper limit of 20kHz, but we know of animals that can. But nothing, I dare say, can we hear the rotation of our planet, with one revolution per day. Nothing can hear some 20MHz either, because detecting sound comes down to mechanics, and devices that do it are constructed from atoms of finite size with finitely strong forces between them.ZealotX wrote: As far as consciousness...
I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. [sic]
And again it raises the question, can there be any amount of mind one can put to it to overcome this limitation or are there real physical boundaries playing outside of which is just entirely unrealistic? Again, I maintain, that there is such a thing as the photoelectric effect. To affect an atom or molecule with a light particle, it has to carry some minimal amount of energy, i.e. it needs to have a sufficiently high frequency to even interact at all with the light-sensitive cell. Likewise, the states it can then change the molecule to is determined by the individual atoms and their arrangement in it. So there is a limit to how high a photon's frequency can be before it is no longer able to interact with any part of the retina at all anymore.You can only see light within a certain frequency.
I admit, it probably isn't as simple as I've been picturing it so far. I'm sure a biologist or physician can do the topic much more justice than I can make any attempt to. But even admitting to any technical mistakes I may be making here, these limitations are a matter of physics, not a matter of attitude. We can try and tune our senses, train ourselves to pay more attention to more subtle things they pick up, but they can only pick up so much. And soft as the limits are, they are not arbitrary. No human eye can hear a 100kHz sound or a 3Hz one. No human eye can see a radio wave, or an X-ray. And no amount of awareness alteration can make those things happen any more than they can enable one to jump straight into outer space from the ground, using nothing but a pair of plain old human legs.So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered.
Operating within a limiting range is absolutely a good thing. Imagine if you could hear people's thoughts. How soon before you wouldn't want to talk to anyone? If we had "better vision" would it really be better? Or would we see a lot of "excess data" that our brains would have to work harder to make sense of. Sure animals sometimes have better hearing but maybe they only see in black and white or have some other limitation. These input limitations make it so we're not processing more information than we can handle. Same with memory. We don't remember everything; even if we think we do. The brain prioritizes information and uses imagination to fill the gaps in memory that it doesn't actually save. Imagine hearing things from far beyond your range of vision. Would you ever get to sleep at night? We already buy eye masks and think curtains to block outside light. Imagine if we didn't have eye lids. Limitations can be extremely useful and functional.
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28 Oct 2019 21:22 #344948
by ZealotX
well, perhaps we recycle through the lower levels of human existence, searching for purpose, until we find it. Until we see that thing, that was there but we weren't aware or fully aware of. "its not the spoon that bends". This goes to your first point about knowledge vs belief. "Don't just think you are, know you are." Most religions have a system of repetition. You even see many prayers that specifically use repetition. It's all about reinforcing belief the same exact way that Trump will keep repeating "no collusion, no obstruction" because the truth doesn't matter when it comes to influence. It's all about what people will believe.
Of course does that we can actually bend spoons with our minds? We can't do things that are physically impossible. But belief can transform your life if you believe that you can obtain the obtainable and do the doable. We all have power that we limit strictly by our own belief that it is out of our reach; because we convince ourselves that it is and that we know it is when that negative thought is simply a belief itself that contradicts confidence.
Replied by ZealotX on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Fyxe wrote: subject and object are not required for force level consciousness though. thats what Jedi try to get to right? the rising up through the levels to the point where all that dissapears, or at least so we can tell the difference that there is no difference. to say we are connected is one thing, to know that we are is different. this is a higher level. We start out a shattered pieces and our goal is to put ourselves back together. we can do this through pain or through ascention. one way or the other it will happen, so why not avoid the pain? This is what the force wants for us. to rise by knowledge and understanding, not screaming and kicking like a bad child!
Until we get this knowledge we recycle ourselves though the lower animal layers of the astral planes until they move on to guardian level where the spirit guides are. they are the ones that help us in the journey. after they do that for a while they get to shed even their energy bodes and become pure thought until they can ascend to master level where the teaching of the force come from. above them are the very planes of creation and beyond that is the infinite itself. the realm of pure force energy where all things are one and all other things come.
well, perhaps we recycle through the lower levels of human existence, searching for purpose, until we find it. Until we see that thing, that was there but we weren't aware or fully aware of. "its not the spoon that bends". This goes to your first point about knowledge vs belief. "Don't just think you are, know you are." Most religions have a system of repetition. You even see many prayers that specifically use repetition. It's all about reinforcing belief the same exact way that Trump will keep repeating "no collusion, no obstruction" because the truth doesn't matter when it comes to influence. It's all about what people will believe.
Of course does that we can actually bend spoons with our minds? We can't do things that are physically impossible. But belief can transform your life if you believe that you can obtain the obtainable and do the doable. We all have power that we limit strictly by our own belief that it is out of our reach; because we convince ourselves that it is and that we know it is when that negative thought is simply a belief itself that contradicts confidence.
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29 Oct 2019 20:14 #344985
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Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Wow, interesting things proteus. thanks for posting such cool stuff. I wonder if that is a different kind of consciousness than I was talking about though. I wanted to really talk about levels of I guess like universal consciousness and not just consciousness that looks like more of a sort of an ability to understand things in our lives. so that chart divides stuff up by what I call understanding of an idea, understanding of yourself and understanding of the morals civilization. what woujld happen if the understanding of an idea is backwards to understanding of morals though? like what makes it have to be the way the chart shows?
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29 Oct 2019 21:37 - 29 Oct 2019 21:39 #344988
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Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Well, let's look at this from somewhat of a biological level.
Ants, birds, fish, cats, heck, even plants, have different senses, different brains (or none at all), different biological makeups, yet all have some sort of consciousness, albeit some much more simple than others, and it shows itself in different ways (hence the ant colony's "hive-mind" versus a more advanced mammal's individualistic, problem-solving, and emotional cognitive capabilities).
So, if we look at it from a purely literal angle, yes, there are different levels of consciousness, in terms of biological complexity.
However, I am sure this question is addressing specifically hypothetically differing human levels of consciousness.
Yet even so, when we speak in terms of shifting focus and perspective via mediums such as mediation and hallucinogens, would one consider these experiences differing levels of human consciousness?
Ants, birds, fish, cats, heck, even plants, have different senses, different brains (or none at all), different biological makeups, yet all have some sort of consciousness, albeit some much more simple than others, and it shows itself in different ways (hence the ant colony's "hive-mind" versus a more advanced mammal's individualistic, problem-solving, and emotional cognitive capabilities).
So, if we look at it from a purely literal angle, yes, there are different levels of consciousness, in terms of biological complexity.
However, I am sure this question is addressing specifically hypothetically differing human levels of consciousness.
Yet even so, when we speak in terms of shifting focus and perspective via mediums such as mediation and hallucinogens, would one consider these experiences differing levels of human consciousness?
Last edit: 29 Oct 2019 21:39 by .
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29 Oct 2019 21:39 #344989
by Carlos.Martinez3
Chaplain of the Temple of the Jedi Order
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Can one be aware of more than one thing?
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29 Oct 2019 21:48 - 29 Oct 2019 21:49 #344992
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Oh wow, this one really stumped me.
Well, I'm not sure.
It depends on your definition of "one thing".
I mean, you may think, for example, by imagining the Universe, you are thinking of many things, but wouldn't you in reality only be imagining one concept?
Or practicing mindfulness, and being aware of only that which is present in the present, are you thinking of everything that is happening now, or simply just "now"?
This is an excellent question!
I am currently reading through The Way of Zen by Alan Watts, and in the first chapter, the very first thing he addresses is our natural tendency to only think linearly, as in, one thing at a time.
This is why language takes the form it does.
Yes, we understand what a runny nose is when we say it, the concept just pops into your head and you know exactly what I mean, but the language does not capture the essence of the thing itself, the complex biological and environmental systems that make the thing what it is, or even the evolution that led to the adaptation of noses secreting boogers/mucus to ward off dirt and bacteria and such!
Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Can one be aware of more than one thing?
Oh wow, this one really stumped me.
Well, I'm not sure.
It depends on your definition of "one thing".
I mean, you may think, for example, by imagining the Universe, you are thinking of many things, but wouldn't you in reality only be imagining one concept?
Or practicing mindfulness, and being aware of only that which is present in the present, are you thinking of everything that is happening now, or simply just "now"?
This is an excellent question!
I am currently reading through The Way of Zen by Alan Watts, and in the first chapter, the very first thing he addresses is our natural tendency to only think linearly, as in, one thing at a time.
This is why language takes the form it does.
Yes, we understand what a runny nose is when we say it, the concept just pops into your head and you know exactly what I mean, but the language does not capture the essence of the thing itself, the complex biological and environmental systems that make the thing what it is, or even the evolution that led to the adaptation of noses secreting boogers/mucus to ward off dirt and bacteria and such!
Last edit: 29 Oct 2019 21:49 by .
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29 Oct 2019 22:22 - 29 Oct 2019 22:27 #344995
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
What about riding a bike? Have to be aware of your balance, traffic or obstacles, the slipperiness of the gravel, steering and your hand/s on the handles, and the destination or route youre on. Pretty much all of this at the same time. Driving is similar. Heres a question then: are we aware of several things at once or do we cycle through single things so quickly that it only seems we’re aware of several things?
People are complicated.
Last edit: 29 Oct 2019 22:27 by OB1Shinobi.
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29 Oct 2019 23:04 #344996
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Replied by on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Yes you can be aware of 7 things at one time consciously but subconsciously you can be aware of like 200 or more but is not realised.
So the consciousness I was wondering about was an awareness of higher realms. Like ascension conscious.
So the consciousness I was wondering about was an awareness of higher realms. Like ascension conscious.
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29 Oct 2019 23:38 - 29 Oct 2019 23:57 #344997
by OB1Shinobi
How do you know thats true?
I gave some examples of “higher” levels of consciousness that we can validate fairly well back in this post . The problem with the idea of “ascension” is that it seems to be just a rumor. Today, we look back on people like Jesus or the Buddha and we say they had achieved a higher level of consciousness - they ascended - but thats not something we believe because we have any good reason (aka convincing evidence) to believe it; its something some of us choose to believe because we want it to be true. From what i have seen so far, all examples of “ascension” fall into this same category.
EDIT: tell you what, though; if higher levels of consciousness do exist, its probably going to take quite a lot of dedication to various kinds of meditation, visualization, and lucid dreaming in order to access them.
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
Fyxe wrote: Yes you can be aware of 7 things at one time consciously but subconsciously you can be aware of like 200 or more but is not realised.
How do you know thats true?
So the consciousness I was wondering about was an awareness of higher realms. Like ascension conscious.
I gave some examples of “higher” levels of consciousness that we can validate fairly well back in this post . The problem with the idea of “ascension” is that it seems to be just a rumor. Today, we look back on people like Jesus or the Buddha and we say they had achieved a higher level of consciousness - they ascended - but thats not something we believe because we have any good reason (aka convincing evidence) to believe it; its something some of us choose to believe because we want it to be true. From what i have seen so far, all examples of “ascension” fall into this same category.
EDIT: tell you what, though; if higher levels of consciousness do exist, its probably going to take quite a lot of dedication to various kinds of meditation, visualization, and lucid dreaming in order to access them.
People are complicated.
Last edit: 29 Oct 2019 23:57 by OB1Shinobi.
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30 Oct 2019 01:01 #345000
by Rex
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"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein
Replied by Rex on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
One of my favorite podcasts, the Partially Examined Life, recently did a series of episodes discussing the philosophy of mind (which includes consciousness) and it really solidified my functionalist leanings.
If you vaguely care about the discussion, people far smarter than I have written many books on the subject (what it's like to be a bat, etc.) and I'd be delighted to point you that direction. This is my final post in this thread, because it's too cluttered with presumptions for my liking.
If you vaguely care about the discussion, people far smarter than I have written many books on the subject (what it's like to be a bat, etc.) and I'd be delighted to point you that direction. This is my final post in this thread, because it's too cluttered with presumptions for my liking.
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30 Oct 2019 09:27 #345008
by Brick
Now that's an interesting question OB1Shinobi!
Our senses and mind work 24/7, so we're always having information delivered to our brain in a continuous stream. So in that sense, we're always 'aware' of everything that's going on around us. However, I personally think we can only focus on a couple of things at a time.
For example, it's possible to hear what someone else is saying whilst you your self are talking. I don't think that's a case of switching rapidly because no matter how quickly you switched you'd still only be able to say/hear 50% of what's occurring. So it must be possible to be aware of at least 2 things at once.
However, the more we take on, the more likely we are to overload our brains - hence when we may be saying one thing and thinking another thing and we end up saying a mix of the 2 that doesn't really make sense.
Thinking and acting linearly is clearly our most comfortable 'default setting'
Replied by Brick on topic Do you believe in levels of consciousness?
OB1Shinobi wrote: ...Heres a question then: are we aware of several things at once or do we cycle through single things so quickly that it only seems we’re aware of several things?
Now that's an interesting question OB1Shinobi!
Our senses and mind work 24/7, so we're always having information delivered to our brain in a continuous stream. So in that sense, we're always 'aware' of everything that's going on around us. However, I personally think we can only focus on a couple of things at a time.
For example, it's possible to hear what someone else is saying whilst you your self are talking. I don't think that's a case of switching rapidly because no matter how quickly you switched you'd still only be able to say/hear 50% of what's occurring. So it must be possible to be aware of at least 2 things at once.
However, the more we take on, the more likely we are to overload our brains - hence when we may be saying one thing and thinking another thing and we end up saying a mix of the 2 that doesn't really make sense.
Thinking and acting linearly is clearly our most comfortable 'default setting'
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