Do you believe in levels of consciousness?

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28 Oct 2019 05:13 - 28 Oct 2019 05:14 #344914 by Adder
Ones experience of being aware is not static, it can be if we cling to it, but it can also change dramatically. In that regard that consciousness can change, I define psychonautics as the capacity to change it. But I find it useful to have reference models and naturally its often easier to use who you were as a safeharbour, assuming it is safe :S

Obviously a lot of folk use a sledgehammer to open an envelope and think substances to induce biochemical changes are the best or only way to do it. But that usually crushes ones fingers or takes your head off your neck, proverbially speaking. Lots of spiritual traditions use other ways to fiddle with the noggin, but all people make small adjustments every time they learn something into their learn term memory AFAIK.

But I suppose we have to be careful about the language being used, to make any sense at all. I prefer to view it in terms of seen and unseen awareness. What I'm talking about is the interface layer between the consciousness that is our experience of being self aware, and the subconscious that is the mental functions associated with it. I call that an unseen awareness because 'science' has indicated that some of those processes precede the consciousness (seen awareness) in what I call the subconscious (unseen awareness).

NB: I use the term subconscious instead of unconscious, because to me the seen awareness is not a product of a system, but part of many systems. It just happens to be the one thinking its a the only one thinking in a meatsuit. I find 'un' is only appropriate when used in matters only dealing with the consciousness, which this is not. And to me the 'sub' is not a hierarchical association, rather the use of sub is about being just another part of the network that is not the conscious being referred to. In this regard then, my consciousness is a subconscious itself, of you the reader! Albeit a distant one filtered through your own subconsciousness lol

Anyway, my point is I feel we can only extend our inner light of consciousness so far with so much intensity - limits seem to exist. So yes, I do think there are levels of consciousness, but I find the apparatus itself has those limitations. If you demand more from something, it might take from something else. It's a powerful metaphor to consider the Force! One could define the conscious awareness as the light and the subconscious awareness as the dark, for example. Such that if one draw from the dark to spread their light, it might lead to changes in oneself that redress the imbalance which in effect lead to a perhaps unintended or even disproportionate requirement to focus on oneself rather then others.

The change I refer to which denotes levels, is that our experiences define how we define affordance within our awareness. We define things in relation to what they mean to us based on how we've constructed meaning itself. Exploring for exploration's sake tends to be the fools errand. Better to set targets of exploration in a way as not to define the result by limiting the search parameters such that none other is possible. But better yet, make the most of where you are already, or move somewhere where you can. We seem to only get one body so we have to be careful with it, and it only gets stronger for about 3 short decades before it starts getting weaker again!!!! If one thinks working is hard in your 20's, wait till your in your 50's... and the mind is the most sensitive of all organs probably!!

So I think levels of consciousness in practical terms should refer to levels of motivation. Escaping into ones mind to dig for treasure is a bit like acquiring an appetite for sand in a desert. I'd say a Jedi digs.... but for capabilities, ie power, more then anything.

the Force is what gives a Jedi
his power. It's an energy field
created by all living things. It
surrounds us and penetrates us. It
binds the galaxy together.
~ George Lucas aka Ben Kenobi


That said.... the light can be shared among others!

:silly:

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 28 Oct 2019 05:14 by Adder. Reason: formatting for fun
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28 Oct 2019 06:28 #344917 by Rex
I say "bad faith" as in the opposite of good faith "bona fide"

Also consciousness requires a subject and an object: what are they for your 10 levels?

Adder makes a good point regarding our consciousness vs awareness. What our bodily "hardware" can input versus our mind can process are not necessarily the same, but they obviously have limitations that seem overlooked here

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ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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28 Oct 2019 12:34 #344923 by ZealotX
I think its easy to kind of merge ideas that somewhat obfuscate their original intended meaning; forcing upon those words a meaning more aligned to our own perceptions and wishful thinking.

What I mean by that is... for example... some people treat dimensions like levels in a video game. In reality we exist in all dimensions simultaneously because each (to qualify as a dimension) is simply a plane of existence of our own reality. But since we're trying to understand something in terms of a flat surface (like a map of the world) if its' not flat then it can't be limited to that model.

As far as consciousness...

I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. You can only see light within a certain frequency. So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered. If your brain waves are closer to that of sleep then you may have a different experience and perhaps your subconscious mind will get to be more in the driver's seat because perhaps it is usually operating at a different frequency all the time and so we're only aware of it at the points of intersection with the frequency used by the conscious mind.

At any rate, there's a lot of different ideas relating to consciousness, especially the kind that deals with levels. In this form, I believe we're talking more of a knowledge that comes from being aware where as the ability to identify things we are aware of is somewhat dependent upon the database of information we have to draw from. Some people find it very difficult to see certain things just because they haven't personally experienced it. Without that experience the mind has to rely on imagination which is based on ideas based on past experiences of its own. Information builds on top of information the same way a child goes from 2nd to 3rd to 4th grade.

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28 Oct 2019 14:31 #344926 by Fyxe
subject and object are not required for force level consciousness though. thats what Jedi try to get to right? the rising up through the levels to the point where all that dissapears, or at least so we can tell the difference that there is no difference. to say we are connected is one thing, to know that we are is different. this is a higher level. We start out a shattered pieces and our goal is to put ourselves back together. we can do this through pain or through ascention. one way or the other it will happen, so why not avoid the pain? This is what the force wants for us. to rise by knowledge and understanding, not screaming and kicking like a bad child!

Until we get this knoweldge we recycle ourselves though the lower aniimal layers of the astral planes until they move on to guardian level where the spirit guides are. they are the ones that help us in the journey. after they do that for a while they get to shed even their energy bodes and become pure thought until they can asend to master level where the teaching of the force come from. above them are the very planes of creation and beyond that is the infinite itself. the realm of pure force energy where all things are one and all other things come.

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.

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28 Oct 2019 18:14 #344937 by Proteus
This isn't quite the same thing as what is being talked about here, but it is this idea that I feel is most realistically in play for us when we think of this, and in which I think we would get the most practical and progressive benefit from discussing, in my opinion.

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jedii...ges-of-consciousness

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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28 Oct 2019 18:20 - 28 Oct 2019 18:23 #344938 by Gisteron

ZealotX wrote: As far as consciousness...

I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. [sic]

Yes, indeed. But is this just some mystical restriction upon the human condition, or a consequence of the way our bodies are built? If the way our hearing mechanism is constructed is the reason we can only hear sounds within a certain frequency range, then there is precious little we can do to "transcend" that, no matter how hard we "open ourselves to the possibility".

There is only so much space in our skulls, and hair cells the way our bodies construct them can only grow so long before their stability is seriously affected - not to mention the increase in volume of higher frequency modes if the ducts inside the cochlea are that wide. That gives a soft limit on the lower end of the scale. On the higher end the molecules involved do have a finite size and hair cells that are too short are not flexible enough to get affected by the fluid currents - which themselves are also dampened severely that deeply inside the cochlea. I can easily enough believe that some people can indeed hear below the nominal 20Hz. I myself am not sure I could perceive the nominal upper limit of 20kHz, but we know of animals that can. But nothing, I dare say, can hear the rotation of our planet, with one revolution per day. Nothing can hear some 20MHz either, because detecting sound comes down to mechanics, and devices that do it are constructed from atoms of finite size with finitely strong forces between them.


You can only see light within a certain frequency.

And again it raises the question, can there be any amount of mind one can put to it to overcome this limitation or are there real physical boundaries playing outside of which is just entirely unrealistic? Again, I maintain, that there is such a thing as the photoelectric effect. To affect an atom or molecule with a light particle, it has to carry some minimal amount of energy, i.e. it needs to have a sufficiently high frequency to even interact at all with the light-sensitive cell. Likewise, the states it can then change the molecule to is determined by the individual atoms and their arrangement in it. So there is a limit to how high a photon's frequency can be before it is no longer able to interact with any part of the retina at all anymore.


So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered.

I admit, it probably isn't as simple as I've been picturing it so far. I'm sure a biologist or physician can do the topic much more justice than I can make any attempt to. But even admitting to any technical mistakes I may be making here, these limitations are a matter of physics, not a matter of attitude. We can try and tune our senses, train ourselves to pay more attention to more subtle things they pick up, but they can only pick up so much. And soft as the limits are, they are not arbitrary. No human eye can hear a 100kHz sound or a 3Hz one. No human eye can see a radio wave, or an X-ray. And no amount of awareness alteration can make those things happen any more than they can enable one to jump straight into outer space from the ground, using nothing but a pair of plain old human legs.

Last edit: 28 Oct 2019 18:23 by Gisteron.
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28 Oct 2019 20:42 #344944 by Fyxe
I cant see that proteus??

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.

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28 Oct 2019 20:56 - 28 Oct 2019 21:19 #344945 by ZealotX
I had a better post in response but apparently it didn't make it.

previous response found.
Last edit: 28 Oct 2019 21:19 by ZealotX.

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28 Oct 2019 21:15 #344946 by Proteus

Fyxe wrote: I cant see that proteus??



Sorry about that Fyxe, I forgot that only members can access the forum the thread was posted in. I've provided quoted material from the thread here in the spoilers. I hope you find it engaging on your own personal level to look further into it! It was my apprentice Loudzoo who originally posted this.

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts

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28 Oct 2019 21:18 #344947 by ZealotX

Gisteron wrote:

ZealotX wrote: As far as consciousness...

I think this has more to do with frequency. You can only hear sounds within a certain frequency. [sic]

Yes, indeed. But is this just some mystical restriction upon the human condition, or a consequence of the way our bodies are built? If the way our hearing mechanism is constructed is the reason we can only hear sounds within a certain frequency range, then there is precious little we can do to "transcend" that, no matter how hard we "open ourselves to the possibility". There is only so much space in our skulls, and hair cells the way our bodies construct them can only grow so long before their stability is seriously affected - not to mention the increase in volume of higher frequency modes if the ducts inside the cochlea are that wide. That gives a soft limit on the lower end of the scale. On the higher end the molecules involved do have a finite size and hair cells that are too short are not flexible enough to get affected by the fluid currents - which themselves are also dampened severely that deeply inside the cochlea. I can easily enough believe that some people can indeed hear below the nominal 20Hz. I myself am not sure I could perceive the nominal upper limit of 20kHz, but we know of animals that can. But nothing, I dare say, can we hear the rotation of our planet, with one revolution per day. Nothing can hear some 20MHz either, because detecting sound comes down to mechanics, and devices that do it are constructed from atoms of finite size with finitely strong forces between them.


You can only see light within a certain frequency.

And again it raises the question, can there be any amount of mind one can put to it to overcome this limitation or are there real physical boundaries playing outside of which is just entirely unrealistic? Again, I maintain, that there is such a thing as the photoelectric effect. To affect an atom or molecule with a light particle, it has to carry some minimal amount of energy, i.e. it needs to have a sufficiently high frequency to even interact at all with the light-sensitive cell. Likewise, the states it can then change the molecule to is determined by the individual atoms and their arrangement in it. So there is a limit to how high a photon's frequency can be before it is no longer able to interact with any part of the retina at all anymore.


So your awareness is within a certain "physical" frequency which can be altered.

I admit, it probably isn't as simple as I've been picturing it so far. I'm sure a biologist or physician can do the topic much more justice than I can make any attempt to. But even admitting to any technical mistakes I may be making here, these limitations are a matter of physics, not a matter of attitude. We can try and tune our senses, train ourselves to pay more attention to more subtle things they pick up, but they can only pick up so much. And soft as the limits are, they are not arbitrary. No human eye can hear a 100kHz sound or a 3Hz one. No human eye can see a radio wave, or an X-ray. And no amount of awareness alteration can make those things happen any more than they can enable one to jump straight into outer space from the ground, using nothing but a pair of plain old human legs.


Operating within a limiting range is absolutely a good thing. Imagine if you could hear people's thoughts. How soon before you wouldn't want to talk to anyone? If we had "better vision" would it really be better? Or would we see a lot of "excess data" that our brains would have to work harder to make sense of. Sure animals sometimes have better hearing but maybe they only see in black and white or have some other limitation. These input limitations make it so we're not processing more information than we can handle. Same with memory. We don't remember everything; even if we think we do. The brain prioritizes information and uses imagination to fill the gaps in memory that it doesn't actually save. Imagine hearing things from far beyond your range of vision. Would you ever get to sleep at night? We already buy eye masks and think curtains to block outside light. Imagine if we didn't have eye lids. Limitations can be extremely useful and functional.

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